Goalie coaching and goalie graveyards

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Mathradio, Oct 27, 2011.

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  1. Mathradio

    Mathradio Drive for 25

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    We all know that some franchises were, historically speaking, goalie graveyards (Philadelphia, Vancouver in particular) and some goalies that played in such goalie graveyards weren't that great to start with.

    But do subpar goalie coaching have any role to play in building such goalie graveyards?
     
  2. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    This is not very funny but if not the accident which ended on a graveyard, Flyers could have their franchise goalie into mid-nineties.
     
  3. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Just so we're clear, that's a metaphor right? Lindbergh didn't crash his car into a cemetary did he?

    But either way, he was likely a future HHOF goalie.

    Never thought of it that way. However, when it comes to Philly they have traditionally cheaped out on a goalie. It happened in 1998 when they went after and aging Beezer instead of a prime Joseph. I think that has a lot to do with it.
     
  4. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    Sure, meaning can be lost in translation. I ment things could go better for Flyers if not the accident and whole goalie graveyard thing wouldnt probably exist.

    it's interesting they didnt have good goalie when general opinion was - it's necessary to have proven goalie for winning the Cup, on the other hand nowadays when many fans think a decent goalie is enough, Flyers went after high-end goaltender. Always doing things in reverse.
     
  5. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Well that remains to be seen. Bryzgalov is not established by any means in the postseason which is a whole different animal. And I think even post lockout you need a goalie to win. With the exception of 2010 (Niemi) all goalies have been solid post lockout.

    Ward - Won Conn Smythe
    Giguere - in the running for Smythe
    Osgood - merely good, maybe better known for not losing games then actually winning them
    Fleury - made some huge clutch saves all playoffs
    Niemi - worst I have ever seen from a Cup winning goalie
    Thomas - legendary performance, Conn Smythe

    Goalies are still just as important as yesteryear.
     
  6. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    Osgood, Nieme and Fleruy werent really nothing special in my eyes (EDIT: career value not actual performance during cup run; Osgood isnt even in a outside discussion about HOF with legacy which would make another goalie a superstar), though I believe in the same thing as you - goalies are still important. Go on the main board and many people will tell you the opposite.
    I have to agree Bryzgalov isnt proven playoff performer, but was in some serious talk about Hart Trophy.

    Oh, and nor I wouldnt call Cechmanek a total garbage, but maybe I'm little bit biased, I always remember him like a premier goalie from Czech republic and their national team.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  7. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Thats an interesting question Mathradio. I dont think Vancouver's ever employed "sub par" goalie coaches' per se', in fact my understanding of it is theyve employed some of the best, and instead, employed goaltenders who mysteriously lose their "focus" in the midst of important series & games. Pre-game visualization for a goaltender in a quiet dark room for a couple of hours is crucial; communication with his defencemen & forwards etc. I dont know what Vancouvers (or Phillys) goalie coaches prescribe in those areas but I suspect that may be "suspect" in execution. Dont see a ton of communication between Vancouvers goalies & their team mates the way they should.

    Kirk McLean was the last truly "consistent" performer however his game trailed off after 94-95, he'd peaked. Cloutier could look like an All Star for a string of games, lets in a stinker, then makes another brilliant save moments later. Luongo's brilliant through the regular season (though not so much thus far this year) yet maddeningly seems to suffer complete meltdowns in the post season or; he stands on his head. You never know which Roberto's going to show up. These are mental problems more than sub-par coaching or lack of ability. Lack of focus followed by the inevitable crisis' of confidence. In a hockey mad city like Vancouver, the media & fans are all over it, worsening the situation for some guys who I suspect have rather fragile ego's to begin with.
     
  8. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Vancouver is not a ‘goalie graveyard’.

    Aside from a brief period from 1998-2000 when the entire franchise was in turmoil and Brian Burke made a mess of the goaltending position (about 5 starters in 2.5 years), the Canucks have probably been the most stable goaltending team in the league. There have essentially been 4 starting goalies in the last 32 years :

    Richard Brodeur 1980-1987
    Kirk McLean 1987-1998
    Dan Cloutier 2000-2006
    Roberto Luongo 2006-now

    The whole ‘goalie graveyard’ thing was a nice catchphrase tossed out there by Burke to deflect blame away from his multiple failures in solving problems in net – make it seem like the city/fans are the problem instead of poor moves by the GM. It really couldn’t be further from the truth, and it’s frankly unbelievable that it stuck and people are still repeating it.
     
  9. LeBlondeDemon10

    LeBlondeDemon10 BlindLemon Haystacks

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    Don't forget that the Flyers had Parent, Peeters, Lindberg and then Hextall in succession from about 72-92. That's a pretty good tradition. Its only in the past 12 or so years they have failed to produce or acquire anybody worth noting.
     
  10. De Montreal

    De Montreal help

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    For Montreal, goaltending have been their bread and butter for the past 20 years... I don't recall any particular span of more than 1 year where their best player wasnt a goalie...
     
  11. saskriders

    saskriders Can't Hold Leads

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  12. jarude*

    jarude* Guest

    no way dawg billington and rhodes got that **** nailed down
     
  13. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    Probably the couple of years when Thibault was the starter...
     
  14. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    Ewww, Ottawa

    Bales
    Beaupre
    Sidorkewicz
    Leclaire
    Lalime (playoffs)
    Elliott
     
  15. Mathradio

    Mathradio Drive for 25

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    Did goalie coaches suck when Ottawa and Philadelphia (maybe even Toronto post-lockout) cycled through goalies?

    We know that the role of a goalie coach is easy to understate when you want to understand how a franchise came to be a goalie graveyard.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  16. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    And that isn't a good thing either. Maybe that's more of a commentary on how weak their forwards have been

    I never thought Brodeur was very good, McLean was good for the most part but as for Cloutier he is best remembered as a choker and a very unreliable goalie. Luongo has kind of been feast or famine in important games as well.
     
  17. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Its a bit of a riddle wrapped in an enigma to quote a famous line BigPhil. MS is absolutely correct in castigating Brian Burke for yet another one of his "Burkisms". Deflecting the onus of responsibility, attributing his own shortcomings to the gray skies & rain, lack of decent Sushi restaurants on Robson Street or whatever out here.

    Vancouver is no more a "Goalie Graveyard" than anywhere else, and as I stated earlier, its my understanding that the Nucks' have in fact had some better than good Goalie Coaches working with their talent. We've had reclamation projects (Weekes), vertically challenged (Irbe'), all manner & kind, all of them more than capable. Im not a Canucks "fan fan" but I care, and their are a lot of similarities with the other Canadian franchises & the relationship between the fans & the goaltenders excluding Alberta, which has gotten beyond that point thanks to guys like Ranford, Fuhr, Joseph, Kipper etc.

    Bottom-line; I honestly think theres more pressure being a goaltender in Canadian markets. I know that sounds a bit elitist, however, with the media reporting on what the 4th line winger had for his pre-game meal etc, the pressures are a little different than say an Anaheim or Nashville. Montreals' no Bed of Roses' either. You just watch how quickly they can turn on a Vachon or Hodge; Dryden or whomever else if they start playing whiffle. Price is nowhere close to being out of those woods...
     
  18. seekritdude

    seekritdude Registered User

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    Once again I must argue on behalf of Irbe for Vancouver that year. He was good, and was the only goalie on the team that actually put up decent numbers, and had a winning record. If they had played him more appropriately maybe they could have made the playoffs. They certainly werent stinking up and losing games because of him like others...
     
  19. MadLuke

    MadLuke Registered User

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    Markov could have been the best habs in 07-08 and 08-09.
     
  20. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Precisely. Guys like Irbe were not only decent positionally, they were & are fun to watch. Vancouver has a long history of actually pretty decent backups' & starters, as does Philly, Ottawa, Detroit in the 70's. Toronto circa 79-86 etc. Its all relative.
     
  21. Mathradio

    Mathradio Drive for 25

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    Now we know that goalie coaching didn't contribute to the Canucks' construction of (arguably) the largest Canadian goalie graveyard. Somehow I'd say Philadelphia had a goalie coach that sucked, Lemelin back in 09-10 and perhaps before that. I'm still out on Reese (if Reese is still the Cheesepuffs' goalie coach) until I see half a season worth of Bryzgalov or more.

    For 07-08 I think he deserved to be in the All-Star Team.
     
  22. nutbar

    nutbar Registered User

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    Outside of the 1982 playoffs, how good was Richard Brodeur really?
     
  23. Mathradio

    Mathradio Drive for 25

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    They may have cheaped out on a goalie coach too for what we know. Or, if they somehow knew that goalie coaching is important in a goalie's success, maybe the goalie coach didn't communicate well with the other coaches of the team.
     
  24. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Thats an excellent point. "Back in the day" goalies & their coaches were pretty much left to their own devices in a practice with the exception of PP practices, 3 on 3's, 4 on 3's, 5 on 3's or whatever; Deflections, 2 on 0's, Breakaways etc... Wrist shots, Slapshots from the Point & so on. But generally, the units, be they defensive or offensive were segregated & practiced separately, then coalescing afterwards for the purposes of unity & team play/co-ordination, including the goalies in-crease, always very boring & stilted for the netminder. Its a singular & solitary position obviously, and I personally do not ever re-call any serious discussion or dialogue going on between the goalie coach & the bench boss unless the bench boss was himself a former goalie... Philly has a decent record of excellence, Doug Favell, Parent etc, a dip after Lindbergh, but on the whole, nothing to sneeze at, starters & backups included. The only goaltender I objected to in the history of that franchise who actually does indeed have a pretty good record was Hextall. And Im sorry, but I just couldnt stand the guy as a player. Erratic. Temperamental. Mouthy. Nasty. I thought Philadelphia was the "City of Brotherly Love"?. Not exactly Cricket employing a Psycho between the pipes huh?.
     

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