GM Jim Benning Discussion Pt. III

[vanuck]

i've never heard anyone definitively say this, but obviously it's not unlikely.

i said in the offseason: don't give our rookie coach the familiar guys he's asking for. force him to immediately work with the group he's given so he gives every guy an honest shot and doesn't fall back on old favourites, and by extension old patterns. that way you minimize the torts/square peg tendency of decidinhg how the team is going to play with no regard to the actual makeup of the team, its core, their strengths and weaknesses.

after he works with what he has, then slowly buy him the toys he wants.

Though I don't think any of us could have foreseen just how badly WD wants to play with his toys, it's a good point nonetheless. Looks like you called this one.

Click to read more...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Though I don't think any of us could have foreseen just how badly WD wants to play with his toys, it's a good point nonetheless. Looks like you called this one.

oh definitely. i certainly did not predict that either. and i don't think i "called" anything, except to worry (as a general rule) about what happens when a new coach has familiar options at his disposal and never has to, say, try to work with kassian (which he never did until injuries forced his hand).


my original posts:

what do you guys think of benning acquiring willie deejay's medicine hat boys?

i'm of two minds about this:

maybe the biggest failure of the gillis regime was an inability/reluctance to get his coach(es) on the same page as management. my suspicion is gillis' philosophy as a GM was to let coaches coach and not push for AV to play ballard or hodgson or roy in appropriate roles, torts to play kassian higher in the lineup/not play freakin' hamhuis on the PP, etc.

so on that level, a good sign that benning and willie ninja seem to be communicating.

on the other hand, surrounding him with his own guys as he and his new roster get acquainted with one another might provide a crutch that could slow hinder the adjustment process. here's a scenario that i could see unfolding: new coach comes in after a season of big sweeping changes, GM preaching culture change, leadership group altered but with big pieces still there, new coach has his boys, dorsett gets undeserved minutes because desjardins trusts him while hansen and higgins get pushed down the lineup/to the pressbox as they take longer to adjust to the new system, burrows gets benched for every single random mistake while vey can do no wrong... you get the idea.

see, my fear is not of willie playing favourites. my fear is that as our roster takes a bit of time to learn the new system, desjardins over-relies on the guys who don't need to adjust. it's a short-term gain (winning games in october/november) but perhaps a long-term loss (not giving guys who could be your horses a chance to get with the program-- see: gelinas under keenan, i mean gelinas was the perfect keenan player).

it's an early november game against calgary and the team is terrible. nobody seems to be on the page yet, but dorsett is always in the right place and has scored a few goals. it's a winnable game in the third; would be hard for willie to resist benching kassian and moving dorsett up to the second line to push for OT right? well, that worked. can't mess with a winning formula; keep dorsett on the second line until he fails?

i don't know. guess i'm still scarred by '97/'98.

turns out he hasn't deserved the benefit of the doubt i gave him.


pulling markstrom last night while down three was a message to the team. that message: "my coaching decisions cost us goals."

 

[PM]

Benning on TSN 1040 right now. Pretty outstanding that he can say with a straight face that Bonino has had a good season. The guy has produced at a mediocore 3rd line centre level and doesn't bring any physicality whatsoever.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Benning on TSN 1040 right now. Pretty outstanding that he can say with a straight face that Bonino has had a good season. The guy has produced at a mediocore 3rd line centre level and doesn't bring any physicality whatsoever.

What do you want him to say? "Yeah he's been disappointing, my bad guys"?

 

[NoShowWilly]

What do you want him to say? "Yeah he's been disappointing, my bad guys"?

"yeah you know, Linden Vey isn't what we thought he was and he'll be gone after this season."

"we'll be bringing back dorsett next season but not Matthias nor Richardson."

"Nick Bonino has been a huge letdown and we'll be looking to trade him at the draft."

 

[mrmyheadhurts]

Someone was expecting Bonino to be a physical player?

That's pretty funny.

 

[thepuckmonster]

"yeah you know, Linden Vey isn't what we thought he was and he'll be gone after this season."

"we'll be bringing back dorsett next season but not Matthias nor Richardson."

"Nick Bonino has been a huge letdown and we'll be looking to trade him at the draft."

Yeah, there's a reason PR departments exist.

 

[PM]

What do you want him to say? "Yeah he's been disappointing, my bad guys"?

How about "we expected more but he still has time to make up the gap" or something along those lines, maybe adding something about his 2 powerplay points or whatever it is? It doesn't have to be as ridiculous as the quotes just posted by you and others but it doesn't have to be an outright lie either.

 

[racerjoe]

How about "we expected more but he still has time to make up the gap" or something along those lines, maybe adding something about his 2 powerplay points or whatever it is? It doesn't have to be as ridiculous as the quotes just posted by you and others but it doesn't have to be an outright lie either.

Being honest I think most of the problem we as a board have an issue with Bonino is his deployment.

PP he is not a PPQG, and should not be looked at to be one. He needs someone to get him the chances that made him successful and ANA, and that was being the trigger man. I think that should be a simple fix next season, I am not sure we have the personel this season.

He has also been looked at for most of this season as a shutdown guy, and produced at a second line ES scorer, so I am happy with that side. Having said that, he has only played with one guy this year that is a true top 6 guy. Others are much like him, can be top six guys, but should not be looked at to carry a line.

Twins and Kas
Bur Bonino and Vrbrata

Should be an easy fix.

 

[Canucks LB]

At least he did not defend Vey that much.

And honestly, look at all the players anaheim had for us to get instead of bonino.

People wanted DSP - Awful year
People wanted Etem - Awful year
People wanted Vatenen - Fantastic year, but was never available
We got the 2nd best player out of the 4, with a decent cap hit.

 

[hackey]

Imagine, just imagine if Kesler and his 45 points, would of been a good boy,
remained a good soldier, and still wanted to play for this team

A powerhouse

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Higgins-Kesler-Vrbata
Matthias-Richardson-Kassian
Dorsett/Kennins-Horvat-Hansen

okay, enough, back to reality

 

[arsmaster*]

At least he did not defend Vey that much.

And honestly, look at all the players anaheim had for us to get instead of bonino.

People wanted DSP - Awful year
People wanted Etem - Awful year
People wanted Vatenen - Fantastic year, but was never available
We got the 2nd best player out of the 4, with a decent cap hit.

DSP, 22 years old.

Etem 22 years old.

Bonino 26 years old.

I don't know about you, but a DSP, Theodore, 1st is much more palatable for a rebuild than what is seemingly a guy who hit his high water mark at 26 riding shotgun for Getzlaf and Perry. We needed a proper futures return out of that deal, not a stop-gap.

Bonino is on pace for 39 points/82 games. Decent for the money, but absolutely a poor return vs the opportunity.

Nick Bonino has 11 points since November 30th (40 games). That's a pretty big sample.

So, just as I suspected, his 19 points in 23 games to start the year, was quite clearly a massively unsustainable rate of scoring. Heck, even his last season was probably unsustainable.

 

[bossram]

At least he did not defend Vey that much.

And honestly, look at all the players anaheim had for us to get instead of bonino.

People wanted DSP - Awful year
People wanted Etem - Awful year
People wanted Vatenen - Fantastic year, but was never available
We got the 2nd best player out of the 4, with a decent cap hit.

Make it happen then. Don't trade Kesler. Vatanen is the piece this team actually needed. I still like Etem too. I think he still has a shot. His AHL numbers are consistently sparkling.

Vey/Garrison, Dorsett, Sbisa, Miller were moves I didn't really like from the outset and I can't say they have made me changed my outlook. Expecting Bonino to be a 2C was wishful thinking from the outset (and in that sense it wasn't a great move either). My prediction on Bonino was 35-40 points with meh defensive value which is about on track as to what he'll produce. At 1.9 cap hit though, can't complain too much what Bonino gives us. He should be the 3C though and that's still on Benning.

Vrbata was a good move. Good at the time. Looks good now. Cap hit is fair and short term.

 

[D0ctorCool]

DSP, 22 years old.

Etem 22 years old.

Bonino 26 years old.

I don't know about you, but a DSP, Theodore, 1st is much more palatable for a rebuild than what is seemingly a guy who hit his high water mark at 26 riding shotgun for Getzlaf and Perry. We needed a proper futures return out of that deal, not a stop-gap.

Bonino is on pace for 39 points/82 games. Decent for the money, but absolutely a poor return vs the opportunity.

Nick Bonino has 11 points since November 30th (40 games). That's a pretty big sample.

So, just as I suspected, his 19 points in 23 games to start the year, was quite clearly a massively unsustainable rate of scoring. Heck, even his last season was probably unsustainable.

I'm in this camp as well. Hated the trade when it went down, and I still do. Luckily, McCann seems to be making the trade a lot more palatable.

But I would argue that if we did not have Bonino and Sbisa, then we're most likely out of the playoffs by now. So credit goes to Benning for delivering a playoff calibre team while getting some futures out of it.

dislcaimer: I would've liked to tank this year, so I'm not exactly pleased with the whole philosophy of trading for 'now' players.

 

[Canucks LB]

If McCann turns into a 50 point two way forward, then this trade is a win win.

It really does come down to him now.

 

[arsmaster*]

I'm in this camp as well. Hated the trade when it went down, and I still do. Luckily, McCann seems to be making the trade a lot more palatable.

But I would argue that if we did not have Bonino and Sbisa, then we're most likely out of the playoffs by now. So credit goes to Benning for delivering a playoff calibre team while getting some futures out of it.

dislcaimer: I would've liked to tank this year, so I'm not exactly pleased with the whole philosophy of trading for 'now' players.

Meh, no Sbisa and Bonino likely means still a JG and MS, so we're probably looking at the same sort of outcome, with likely a much better future outlook.

 

[RandV]

At least he did not defend Vey that much.

And honestly, look at all the players anaheim had for us to get instead of bonino.

People wanted DSP - Awful year
People wanted Etem - Awful year
People wanted Vatenen - Fantastic year, but was never available
We got the 2nd best player out of the 4, with a decent cap hit.

I don't think you can say Vatanen was never available when we managed to land Bonino, who was just as valuable to Anaheim last season. Having to go back and ask for Bonino at last seasons did line is what killed the deal at the last minute for Gillis.

No what people wanted was some combination of OTT 1st/Theodore/Vatanen, Anaheim 1st, and a prospect Vatanen/DSP/Etem/etc. While we were never going to get that much, from what we did get it wasn't a clear cut case of choosing Bonino or DSP/Etem. Like I said Bonino was a valuable piece to Anaheim, and we can only speculate at this point but it's more likely that taken Etem instead would have let us take Vatanen over Sbisa or the OTT 1st over ANA 1st.

 

[VanJack]

If McCann turns into a 50 point two way forward, then this trade is a win win.

It really does come down to him now.

Agree with this....Bonino/Sbisa are the kinds of players the Ducks would have left unprotected in an expansion draft....decent cap hits, but limited upside...McCann on the other hand has had a tremendous year and could see him producing decent numbers in Van someday.....everybody said the Schneider/Horvat deal was lopsided and initially it was, but look at it now...hoping the same comparison holds true for Kesler/McCann deal eventually.

 

[BlackAces]

I don't think you can say Vatanen was never available when we managed to land Bonino, who was just as valuable to Anaheim last season. Having to go back and ask for Bonino at last seasons did line is what killed the deal at the last minute for Gillis.

No what people wanted was some combination of OTT 1st/Theodore/Vatanen, Anaheim 1st, and a prospect Vatanen/DSP/Etem/etc. While we were never going to get that much, from what we did get it wasn't a clear cut case of choosing Bonino or DSP/Etem. Like I said Bonino was a valuable piece to Anaheim, and we can only speculate at this point but it's more likely that taken Etem instead would have let us take Vatanen over Sbisa or the OTT 1st over ANA 1st.

There was no way we could go into the season with Sedin-Horvat-Richardson-Matthias-Vey as our center depth. Not when you still have the Sedins here. Their center depth of Getzlaf, Kesler, Rakell is really good, I think the addition of Kesler made Bonino redundant there. Something that can't be said for Vatanen.

 

[Bobby Digital]

There was no way we could go into the season with Sedin-Horvat-Richardson-Matthias-Vey as our center depth. Not when you still have the Sedins here. Their center depth of Getzlaf, Kesler, Rakell is really good, I think the addition of Kesler made Bonino redundant there. Something that can't be said for Vatanen.

I remember there was a hold up in the trade because Canucks wanted bonino and Anaheim wanted to keep him.

Also most of us wanted at least one of Theodore/Vatanen and Ottawa's first round back . I was pretty mad at the trade. Bonino just isn't a good enough 2nd line center and by the time we are serious contenders he will most likely be out of his prime, Sbisa is nothing more than a number 5/6 dman (there was a reason why he's been traded so much early in his career) and Anaheims first was nice but I felt that we should have at least got one of Ottawa's 1st, Vatanen/Theodore.

 

[BlackAces]

I remember there was a hold up in the trade because Canucks wanted bonino and Anaheim wanted to keep him.

Also most of us wanted at least one of Theodore/Vatanen and Ottawa's first round back . I was pretty mad at the trade. Bonino just isn't a good enough 2nd line center and by the time we are serious contenders he will most likely be out of his prime, Sbisa is nothing more than a number 5/6 dman (there was a reason why he's been traded so much early in his career) and Anaheims first was nice but I felt that we should have at least got one of Ottawa's 1st, Vatanen/Theodore.

I agree, but we needed a stop gap until our prospects were able to take over the reigns. For Kesler we needed a center that could at least handle 2nd line minutes, which Bonino can, he's not elite, but he fills the hole; and a prospect or pick (McCann). Sbisa is either a cap dump or poor pro scouting on our part. Given what we needed in a return for Kesler, and the fact we had a 1 team list to work with, I don't think there's any realistic scenario where we could land a prospect like Vatanen.

 

[PM]

If we wanted a stopgap we should have just kept Santorelli or signed Perrault in the off-season. There are much cheaper ways to acquire stopgap players than through trades.

 

[cutcopy]

I don't know how I feel about Benning. He signed Miller for way too much. I don't think anyone else wanted Miller, especially not at that price. I rather he sign Hiller for cheaper, and kept Garrison because the defense is **** now. As well, Benning gave Tanev a one year deal, so he can assess his worth before committing to him. WTF!? Did he not do his homework and assess the team he was going to inherit/did the rest of management not fill him in? Tanev is going to cost more now.

 

[Zarpan]

Bonino has struggled lately, but he still has the 3rd highest ES PPG on the team. Not including Kenins since he hasn't played that many games. Hasn't been a good fit with how he's been deployed on the powerplay, but ES he hasn't been too bad if you look at the season as a whole.

 

[BlackAces]

If we wanted a stopgap we should have just kept Santorelli or signed Perrault in the off-season. There are much cheaper ways to acquire stopgap players than through trades.

I also think Bonino is playing hurt. Much like Richardson, in the sense that it's not something that can be adressed until the offseason. I expect Bonino to be the better option of those two by a fair margin next year.

I will say that I don't think it is great asset managment. I would've rather seen Vatanen + 1st for Kesler and filled the hole through another trade of signing, but who knows what was got taken off the table when they added Bones.