Post-Game Talk: GM 1: Sharks def. Canucks 3-1 - Lead series 1-0

[MISC*]

Just called Team1040.

Felt good to let the rage out.

 

[Derp Kassian]

how about trying spliting the twins apart? put hank with higgins/roy. kesler/danny/burrows. almost every team knows how to beat the twins. end their cycle game and punish them physically even though the sharks dman arent that physical.

panic move, put Kass with the Twins and Burrows with kes and Higgins with Roy, great balance and Roy will be more effective

 

[CherryToke]

Roy?

it's a good start and basically replaces Hodgson, but look at the wingers. every year we have 3rd line wingers in the top 6... why? It's proven to not work in the playoffs.. why would it work this year?

 

[mossey3535]

I might be completely off-base with this because admittedly I haven't been watching the team very closely this season nor have I been following these boards until just recently. But I figure any discussion other than "blow up the team" is good. Still, apologies for what is likely going to be an all over the place, incoherent ramble of a post.

The real change I see in the team between 2011 and now is that they're no longer looking to kill teams by scoring. They're too passive. Or should I say, passive-aggressive. The whole mantra they had about "burning teams on the scoreboard"? It's gone. TSN counted 37 hits as of the 5 minute mark of the third period, at which point the Canucks were still winning. Great. Passion. Heart. Grit. All things that the Canucks need in order to win. Or so we've been told ever since the Boston series. What they weren't providing however, were offensive chances. Scoring chances.

Sure playoff hockey is about guys like Torres making massive game changing hits. We saw Hansen do that with his hit on Galiardi. But the Canucks with the Sedins and the ever-so-frail Ryan Kesler are never going to get anywhere playing that style of hockey. Zach Kassian took a penalty that cost the Canucks the game playing that style of hockey.

This sounds preposterous to even type, but I think the reason the Sedins disappear in the playoffs is not because the other team starts hitting more, it's because the Canucks start hitting more. Look at that play by JVR in the Toronto game that led directly to the Horton goal from the shot by Redden. He literally avoided the puck to make the hit. While I'm not saying the Canucks shouldn't be physical, at this point the offensive numbers are so bad, I think they're collectively sacrificing offensively play in order to provide something they aren't capable of; physicality.

The makeup of the Canucks from the coaching staff to the player personnel calls for a finesse game with strong play along the boards and a great transition game starting from the backend. They do not have the players to have a terrific north-south game scoring goals off the rush. They don't have the players to crash the net and bang pucks in. But it's not like they're crashing the net; pretty much every chance on Niemi was a weak wrister from the perimeter. Or a over-passed play from a bad angle.

Really, the only conclusion I can come to is that the team needs to start playing to it's strengths again. Stop trying to be the 2011 Boston Bruins or 2012 LA Kings. Whether this can be accomplished on it's own, or through a coaching change, or even if it can be done at all, I don't know.

I will say for all the Vigneault detractors - he got the most out of that 2007 team by running an air-tight defensive system, then was able to make the transition to running an absolute offensive juggernaut in 2011. The guy knows how to deal with the players he's been given. At the same time, he's never had a hypothetical 1-2-3 offensive trio of centers like Sedin-Kesler-Roy and them not producing anywhere near what they should be does suggest something may have changed.

I really don't think the player personnel is the problem though. Even if the Sedins are "70 point guys" now, this teams roster is much too talented to be playing as weak as they have been. The defense collectively should be the best in the league despite not having a true two-way number one like Keith or Suter, or a gamebreaker like Subban or Karlsson. Especially with the emergence of Tanev last year and now Corrado. Dump Ballard, keep Alberts as the 7th guy, and along with Schneider that's as solid as a backend as you'll get in the league as far as personnel.

At the beginning of the series, I said SJ in 6. I stand by that, but only because of how bad the Canucks looked tonight. Mainly the Sedins. However, Thornton did not explode like I thought he would. SJ was simply less bad than Vancouver.

Well you did a pretty good job. The problem was the 2011 NSH series, we out-Nashvilled them. That I think convinced AV that's the way we should go forward and the team has gone from the 2011 offensive juggernaut to a poorly formed amalgam with the 2007 trap team. That's AV's real problem - he had the formula with for awhile in 2011 but then abandoned it and went back to what's natural for him and what he has coached his whole life with the EXCEPTION of 2008-2010.

 

[David71]

panic move, put Kass with the Twins and Burrows with kes and Higgins with Roy, great balance and Roy will be more effective

roy doesnt fit alongside hansen/raymond. reunite roy/higgins. is a.v blind. did he not see the one game or so when higgins came back from his injury? and they instantly clicked.

 

[Henrik To Daniel]

I like the idea of putting Kassian with the twins and moving Burrows down to Kesler's line with Hansen/Raymond. Then you can pair Roy with Higgins and Hansen/Raymond for your second scoring line.

 

[Trelane]

Nucks have the worst goal differential among all the playoffs teams except Minnesota and NY Islanders. Add the division we play in and it is a wonder that some were entertaining a deep run.

 

[yoss]

Want to see Danny pull the trigger when he is that close. Just snipe it. Kesler looks hurt, the old days he's gone on that partial breakaway. Our core guys need to find a way, otherwise goodbye. Twins need to be more assertive on offense. Hansen and Roy i thought played well enough, Raymond needs to not hold onto the puck forever and ****ing make a play towards the net with either a pass or drive in there or shoot or something ****.

Had a bad feeling about this game all day, but anyways; I think we win game 2.

Thought Edler had a strong game too, the other D were neither noticeably good nor bad to me. Burrows invisible pretty much as well. Need guys to step up here, come on boys.

 

[Zarpan]

Maybe that is the issue though. When you follow a team so closely that every decision/non decision is picked over to death, the perspective is lost?

I think Ive laid out a pretty good case that this is a personnel issue and not a coaching issue. Granted you guys would be more knowledgeable about the latter, Im not getting much agreement on the former, and I think my points are all pretty solid.

Sure Garrison is doing well. Now. But the contract was a huge gamble. How can that even be a question? Great if it works out for you, but there have been a couple swing and miss deals with Florida already. Gillis is reckless imo. The Luongo cap circumvention deal is hurting the organization. How can that be disputed? That alone could be a firing offense, never mind the other questionable personnel decisions. Those are more glaring than anything AV has done or not done imo.

Although I will say I thought icing an ahl roster and leaving Luongo out to dry in the final regular season game was a bad, bad call. Especially if Schneider was questionable for game one. Maybe you have some other examples of AV's questionable decisions that warrant his firing over Gillis?

The majority of the points you made are things that could hurt the Canucks in the future, but don't impact the ability to put a competitive team on the ice right now.

Booth and having both Luongo and Schneider are cap space issues. Their effect on cap space has not prevented the Canucks from getting a player so far. It may affect the Canucks in the future, but the team we have right now has not been affected by it.

Garrison has been great so far. That's the only thing that matters (and not play in future seasons) when evaluating whether we have the pieces to win playoff games right now.

I guess Grabner would be useful as an offensive threat if we had space for him before. Streaky and one dimensional though.

Hodgson? We got Roy to replace him at least, and Roy's a better player right now.

 

[vanuck]

I might be completely off-base with this because admittedly I haven't been watching the team very closely this season nor have I been following these boards until just recently. But I figure any discussion other than "blow up the team" is good. Still, apologies for what is likely going to be an all over the place, incoherent ramble of a post.

The real change I see in the team between 2011 and now is that they're no longer looking to kill teams by scoring. They're too passive. Or should I say, passive-aggressive. The whole mantra they had about "burning teams on the scoreboard"? It's gone. TSN counted 37 hits as of the 5 minute mark of the third period, at which point the Canucks were still winning. Great. Passion. Heart. Grit. All things that the Canucks need in order to win. Or so we've been told ever since the Boston series. What they weren't providing however, were offensive chances. Scoring chances.

Sure playoff hockey is about guys like Torres making massive game changing hits. We saw Hansen do that with his hit on Galiardi. But the Canucks with the Sedins and the ever-so-frail Ryan Kesler are never going to get anywhere playing that style of hockey. Zach Kassian took a penalty that cost the Canucks the game playing that style of hockey.

This sounds preposterous to even type, but I think the reason the Sedins disappear in the playoffs is not because the other team starts hitting more, it's because the Canucks start hitting more. Look at that play by JVR in the Toronto game that led directly to the Horton goal from the shot by Redden. He literally avoided the puck to make the hit. While I'm not saying the Canucks shouldn't be physical, at this point the offensive numbers are so bad, I think they're collectively sacrificing offensively play in order to provide something they aren't capable of; physicality.

The makeup of the Canucks from the coaching staff to the player personnel calls for a finesse game with strong play along the boards and a great transition game starting from the backend. They do not have the players to have a terrific north-south game scoring goals off the rush. They don't have the players to crash the net and bang pucks in. But it's not like they're crashing the net; pretty much every chance on Niemi was a weak wrister from the perimeter. Or a over-passed play from a bad angle.

Really, the only conclusion I can come to is that the team needs to start playing to it's strengths again. Stop trying to be the 2011 Boston Bruins or 2012 LA Kings. Whether this can be accomplished on it's own, or through a coaching change, or even if it can be done at all, I don't know.

I will say for all the Vigneault detractors - he got the most out of that 2007 team by running an air-tight defensive system, then was able to make the transition to running an absolute offensive juggernaut in 2011. The guy knows how to deal with the players he's been given. At the same time, he's never had a hypothetical 1-2-3 offensive trio of centers like Sedin-Kesler-Roy and them not producing anywhere near what they should be does suggest something may have changed.

I really don't think the player personnel is the problem though. Even if the Sedins are "70 point guys" now, this teams roster is much too talented to be playing as weak as they have been. The defense collectively should be the best in the league despite not having a true two-way number one like Keith or Suter, or a gamebreaker like Subban or Karlsson. Especially with the emergence of Tanev last year and now Corrado. Dump Ballard, keep Alberts as the 7th guy, and along with Schneider that's as solid as a backend as you'll get in the league as far as personnel.

At the beginning of the series, I said SJ in 6. I stand by that, but only because of how bad the Canucks looked tonight. Mainly the Sedins. However, Thornton did not explode like I thought he would. SJ was simply less bad than Vancouver.

Well thought-out, even if I don't agree with exactly everything. We did lead all playoff teams in hits/game in that 2011 run so there may be something to it. Yet at the same time, the Bruins were the 2nd most physical team in that postseason and their offense was fine - being able to score 3+ goals/game.

Was health the difference? We were injury-ravaged while the Bruins weren't so I'm not sure, yet we're relatively healthy as a team right now compared to earlier in the season (knock on wood!).

I definitely agree with you about the way this team plays and the change in style that seems to have occurred since that dominant year we had. You could tell from the way they sat back once they had a lead for much of this season, and while that had nothing to do with how the score played out tonight, the offense just seems to be missing something. And I'm inclined to think that it's not the personnel that's the issue here.

 

[Derp Kassian]

roy doesnt fit alongside hansen/raymond. reunite roy/higgins. is a.v blind. did he not see the one game or so when higgins came back from his injury? and they instantly clicked.

They are sending out Kesler to be more of a shutdown guy with higgins, Kesler actually did quite well chance wise but they obviously didn't score. Roy needs good wingers to be effective otherwise he's just a speed guy.

 

[yoss]

And i thought Lou played well, other than maybe the 3rd goal. Loss isn't on him at all to me though, we were lucky to get out of the 1st at 0-0.

 

[vanuck]

it's a good start and basically replaces Hodgson, but look at the wingers. every year we have 3rd line wingers in the top 6... why? It's proven to not work in the playoffs.. why would it work this year?

Raymond is a top 6 winger - he's scored at that rate in the past. Hansen has for 2 straight years now. Booth is one. Higgins has multiple 20+ goal seasons under his belt. And here by top 6 I mean "at least 2nd line level".

Look at a guy like Galiardi who's playing on SJS's 1st line - is he a top 6 winger?

 

[StringerBell]

Nucks have the worst goal differential among all the playoffs teams except Minnesota and NY Islanders. Add the division we play in and it is a wonder that some were entertaining a deep run.

You forgot San Jose

 

[mossey3535]

Well thought-out, even if I don't agree with exactly everything. We did lead all playoff teams in hits/game in that 2011 run so there may be something to it. Yet at the same time, the Bruins were the 2nd most physical team in that postseason and their offense was fine - being able to score 3+ goals/game.

Was health the difference? We were injury-ravaged while the Bruins weren't so I'm not sure, yet we're relatively healthy as a team right now compared to earlier in the season (knock on wood!).

I definitely agree with you about the way this team plays and the change in style that seems to have occurred since that dominant year we had. You could tell from the way they sat back once they had a lead for much of this season, and while that had nothing to do with how the score played out tonight, the offense just seems to be missing something. And I'm inclined to think that it's not the personnel that's the issue here.

The problem is that if you take out the Boston series, out Goals For average was 2.78 - which would have put us slightly ahead of NASHVILLE.

We also scored a ton of goals against the Sharks (the number of 3+ goal games in that series almost equals the number of 3+ goal games in ALL of the other series combined), so if you take out the Sharks we

Pre-Sharks: 2.31 GF with 2.54 GA
Pre-Boston: 2.78 GF with 2.56 GA
Total: 2.32 GA with 2.76 GA

Basically at no point did we sustain enough production to overcome a 2.76 GAA. That's pathetic, and the trend has continued to today. Hopefully it ends and the team goes on a lengthy run. But indications aren't good and they aren't improved by previous history.

Just for comparison's sake, the Bruins that year outscored their GAA by 0.72 before meeting us (3.22 GF over 2.5 GA). They didn't score more against us compared to previously, but we scored less than their previous opponents (Bruins were 3.24 GF over 2.12 GA against the Canucks that year). So we fared almost half a goal worse on average than did the Flyers, Habs and Lightning.

Our scoring average against the Bruins is truly pathetic:

Habs 2.43
Flyers 1.75
Lightning 3.00
Canucks 1.14

Anyways, fun times.

 

[Squall]

it's a good start and basically replaces Hodgson, but look at the wingers. every year we have 3rd line wingers in the top 6... why? It's proven to not work in the playoffs.. why would it work this year?

Well, in their defense, Booth was supposed to be that winger. Too bad he's injury-prone. I still think Higgins is very capable to be in the top-6. Kassian still needs some time. Raymond's a dud, especially in the playoffs. So I'd replace him first.

 

[medhatcanuck]

I'm out of town and didnt get to watch the game. But averaging out the reactions of when we beat Chicago and after last nights game, I'd say this is pretty bad reaction from fans.

We have beat San Jose before. But we also know our team is super streaky. We were losing going in and it's up to guys like Kesler, Burrows and Bieksa to help us win a detrimental game 2 and 3.

 

[Hammer79]

Nucks have the worst goal differential among all the playoffs teams except Minnesota and NY Islanders. Add the division we play in and it is a wonder that some were entertaining a deep run.

We did that while playing without Kesler most of the season, and not replacing Booth with Roy until the deadline. They are a better team than their record indicates. SJ is a good team, got to give them credit for a good road win. I think the Canucks win game 2 and try to get the split in SJ.

 

[OzFlyers]

So.... how did Sistito go? Ryan Clowe 2.0?
Does he get a game in the playoffs?

 

[medhatcanuck]

Sestito likely will, but he is also competing with a very competent Dale Wiese who is currently injured who plays PK for us and had been an awesome surprise. So pending his health and the health of our d (Ballard is playing 4th line), Sestito might get a shot if AV feels Canucks are being outmuscled

 

[OzFlyers]

Sestito likely will, but he is also competing with a very competent Dale Wiese who is currently injured who plays PK for us and had been an awesome surprise. So pending his health and the health of our d (Ballard is playing 4th line), Sestito might get a shot if AV feels Canucks are being outmuscled

Yea, you can always use someone to have a meaningless fight in the playoffs!

 

[vanuck]

^^ Seriously? Weise is injured?

The problem is that if you take out the Boston series, out Goals For average was 2.78 - which would have put us slightly ahead of NASHVILLE.

We also scored a ton of goals against the Sharks (the number of 3+ goal games in that series almost equals the number of 3+ goal games in ALL of the other series combined), so if you take out the Sharks we

Pre-Sharks: 2.31 GF with 2.54 GA
Pre-Boston: 2.78 GF with 2.56 GA
Total: 2.32 GA with 2.76 GA

Basically at no point did we sustain enough production to overcome a 2.76 GAA. That's pathetic, and the trend has continued to today. Hopefully it ends and the team goes on a lengthy run. But indications aren't good and they aren't improved by previous history.

Just for comparison's sake, the Bruins that year outscored their GAA by 0.72 before meeting us (3.22 GF over 2.5 GA). They didn't score more against us compared to previously, but we scored less than their previous opponents (Bruins were 3.24 GF over 2.12 GA against the Canucks that year). So we fared almost half a goal worse on average than did the Flyers, Habs and Lightning.

Our scoring average against the Bruins is truly pathetic:

Habs 2.43
Flyers 1.75
Lightning 3.00
Canucks 1.14

Anyways, fun times.

It's hard to say if the drop in our offense compared to the regular season was solely a product of our physical style or the injuries we sustained along the way. Probably a combination of both. Plus we were running 3 lines all playoffs that year, which didn't help matters either. We played pretty physical today but only had 1 goal and a handful of chances to show for it.

Although it's interesting to note that up till the end of the Sharks series we did have a Goals For that was slightly below that of LA's last year - and we already had quite a few injuries by that point. So it definitely complicates things because we were just so banged up by the time the Final was over.

 

[StringerBell]

I'm out of town and didnt get to watch the game. But averaging out the reactions of when we beat Chicago and after last nights game, I'd say this is pretty bad reaction from fans.

We have beat San Jose before. But we also know our team is super streaky. We were losing going in and it's up to guys like Kesler, Burrows and Bieksa to help us win a detrimental game 2 and 3.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the (over)reaction here. The teams were very even 5-on-5 with neither one getting many chances. We couldn't score any goals but we hit two crossbars and gave up very few chances while dominating them physically. The difference in this game was their powerplay and an extra bounce their way at even strength.

Obviously the team needs to play better if they're going to win, but they lost a close one without getting outplayed 5-on-5. It wasn't exactly inspiring, but it wasn't disastrous either.

 

[petrishriekandgo]

Kassian with theTwins is a dream, in the offensive zone... BUT in the two other Zones Kassian's brain cramps prevent the line from getting to the offensive zone. IMHO Kassian was taken off the Twins line early in the season because his constant gaffs in the defensive zone left the Twins scrambling and chasing defensively far too often.

Burrows gives them much better break-out potential from their own zone. If we could somehow get Kassian to be Burrows-esque defensively OR give Burrows Kassian's imposing physical gifts we'd have the perfect winger for the Sedins. I think though we need to just push through this with Kassian... he has what no other forward on this team has and IF he can get his feet under him, start feeling confident he could be the difference.

Very concerned about Burrows, it's like he's fallen off the offensive cliff this season. Thought he played his best hockey this year at center... maybe put him back there?

Other thoughts:

Raymond needs to be taken out of the top 6, he's back to his 'letting the play die on his stick' ways.

Put Higgins back with Roy.

My game-2 line-up:

Sedins - Kassian
Higgins - Roy - Kesler
Hansen - Burrows - Raymond
Wiese - Lappy - Sestito

 

[dc]

Raymond is a top 6 winger - he's scored at that rate in the past. Hansen has for 2 straight years now. Booth is one. Higgins has multiple 20+ goal seasons under his belt. And here by top 6 I mean "at least 2nd line level".

Look at a guy like Galiardi who's playing on SJS's 1st line - is he a top 6 winger?

Raymond's numbers show that he is barely a second line winger. He was a few years ago when be broke out, but he doesn't bring much to the table these days as far as offence goes. The problem with Raymond is that he goes through extended periods where he's actually aggressive at using his speed to drive to the net and periods where he is such a perimeter player that he becomes almost useless at generating scoring chances.

Higgins isn't a main stay top 6 forward. The Canucks didn't sign him to be that. He's a guy who can move up if the team gets hurt, but not someone they're going to rely on to put in 25 goals. 15 is more the range they expect.

I think what people are arguing for is a legitimate top 6 winger, not a bubble one. Everyone thought we were getting that with Booth - clearly we didn't.