Because compared to other eras Lidstrom had less defensemen of high ceiling to compete with, at least in comparing him to Bourque. This is why Bourque has 5 Norrises, and Lidstrom 7. To see both of their careers if you put their best seasons from best to worst how many Norrises does Lidstrom have? It isn't 7. So there's that. This is explains why Bourque has 19 all-star nods compared to 12 for Lidstrom. That's a pretty big discrepancy. I like doing the Bourque comparison because when people say "Well, Harvey played too long ago to compare to Lidstrom" then you always have Bourque, who played part of his career in Lidstrom's era. Bourque and Harvey are about as similar as you are going to get in my opinion.
Yeah, Harvey peaked as high as Potvin and Bourque. You're talking about a guy who, when you think about the star of the Habs dynasty is thought to be that guy by about half of the historians.
Harvey finished 2nd in assists in 1955. Three other times in the top 7. This was a defenseman who was well rounded, not just one who was a rover that scored points. I don't know what you need to be impressed by peak, but that's pretty good. Also, 50 points could possibly get you into the top 10 in scoring in the original 6. This is why you always need to take things in context. Harvey's numbers do not look impressive if we are using the modern equivalent, but keep in mind this was pre-Orr NHL.
Another thing to note is that while Lidstrom had his stars on his team, we can agree Harvey had more. Yet Harvey STILL stood out on that team more than Lidstrom. I think the proper order of those good Wings teams as far as contribution would be Yzerman, Fedorov and Lidstrom. No way is Harvey third on an even more stacked Habs team. He's no worse than 2nd. That should tell you something.
Bourque carried his teams better than any great defenseman of all-time. No doubt. Harvey didn't "carry" the Habs, but the idea is that he was the glue of that very star-studded team. Heck, you can say Beliveau and maybe not be wrong, but it is like 1a and 1b here.
Harvey was just what people and historians and ones who saw him play has always been. It is just in the internet era that this has been challenged. For no reason in particular either. Lidstrom was great, but there has to be a bit of context. He didn't have that all-time great defenseman to go up against in his best years. One year his best competition was Dion Phaneuf. I'm just saying.
Again, I’m not interested in the Lidstrom/Bourque comparison again because this section beat that horse years ago so much that there must be a tombstone somewhere for it. I’m already repetitive enough and I’m fine if someone chooses Bourque because I see good arguments for it, too. But now I’m concerned other posters might think you and I are in cahoots because you just set things up for me like it’s tee ball.
Bourque and Harvey about as similar as you’re going to get? It’s like you and I are at a party talking to two fraternal twins who look very similar and some random dude walks up who doesn’t resemble either and you start raving about how he looks like one of the twins after not saying anything about the twins resemblance. I’m as flabbergasted now as I would be in that situation. You’ve got to be kidding me, right?
Lidstrom and Harvey had similar trajectories as players, played in similar situations, had very similar accomplishments, and I’m almost positive they played similar styles. Bourque is the odd one of the three and I’ll show you what I mean.
Lidstrom started his NHL career at 21 and garnered his first AS nomination at age 27. Harvey started his NHL career at 23 and his first AS nomination also at age 27. Bourque started at 19 and was an AS at 19. This ones easy.
Lidstrom played most of his career on strong teams with very nice to great supporting casts. So did Harvey, although for the era his teams were even stronger than Lidstrom’s and had even better supporting casts, including an elite goalie almost every season. Bourque had some good to great teams and at times he had strong supporting casts but nothing really on the same level as the other two, apart from the end with the Avs. Two down.
Lidstrom won 4 Cups, 7 Norris’, and had 12 AS nominations. Harvey won 6 Cups, 7 Norris’, and had 11 AS nominations. Bourque had 1 Cup, 5 Norris’, and 19 AS nominations. See the difference?
Lidstrom was really defense first, took few chances, and had very good but modest team finishes and point totals. Harvey must have been similar because everything matches on a slightly smaller scale (we’ll see more further down). Bourque took more chances, and did it well, had higher team finishes, and produced more offense than the other two. In this regard, Lidstrom sits between the other two. Check mark.
I’ll add to that Bourque had the toughest competition in his prime, although I think his actual competition during his earlier years wasn’t that strong due to inconsistency and injuries and that helped him get more AS nominations than he may have got otherwise. Potvin and Robinson weren’t having prime seasons every year and Fetisov was overseas. Lidstrom had a little less competition during his prime, but there was still a world of elite defenders and he had to deal with Bourque’s peers who were older but still great and already established. Harvey had Kelly early on, and then it dropped right off and Kelly wasn’t in the picture for Harvey’s last 4 Norris’ and 5 AS nominations. All his competition throughout was only Canadian. Last check mark established.
Now, how exactly is Bourque more similar to Harvey than Lidstrom is? If you say both controlled the game then I’ll ask, then why didn’t Harvey get more points and finish higher in team scoring? How could one possibly control the game like Orr or Bourque on a stacked team and not do better in those two metrics? Please give me another example of a player who controlled the game so much but just got unlucky with offensive production.
Let’s see...
Team finishes:
Lidstrom 6, 10, 8, 8, 6, 4, 2, 6, 3, 2, 4, 4, 9, 4, 3, 3, 5, 3, 2, 8.
Harvey 14, 9, 8, 5, 10, 5, 5, 6, 6, 5, 8, 16, 13, 7, 6, 4, 21, 12.
Bourque 4, 5, 4, 5, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 5, 2, 1, 1, 3, 2, 2, 2, 4, 3, 3, 2 (?), 6.
Adjusted Points - best to worst:
Lidstrom 79, 77, 76, 75, 69, 67, 67, 67, 65, 64, 63, 61, 59, 53, 52, 51, 45, 44, 37, 33.
Harvey 68, 63, 59, 52, 48, 48, 42, 41, 41, 36, 33, 31, 30, 26, 22, 22, 4, 2, 0.
Bourque 84, 82, 80, 79, 76, 75, 72, 70, 69, 67, 66, 64, 64, 61, 59, 56, 55, 55, 52, 50, 48, 42.
It clearly goes Bourque, Lidstrom, Harvey.
The historians told you Harvey was the glue and just as good as Beliveau, so that’s good enough, no need to nitpick him, right? I know that is what’s going on, I noticed a long time ago. All the top defenseman were the glue for their teams. That’s what a two-way elite defender who plays half the game and plays in every situation does. They could all defend and transition the puck amazingly. You’re trying so hard to pretend Harvey and Lidstrom were different. I have news for you, they’re extremely similar. By the late 90s Yzerman literally stated that Lidstrom was the MVP of the team, then he won the CS on one of the most stacked teams in recent memory. Then he continued being their elite rock on the backend until 2011 doing it with a different core. Yzerman and Fedorov were gone, so now Zetterberg and Datsyuk were better than the best D in the world, too? Your separation of Harvey and Lidstrom importance is not reality whatsoever, you just want it to be true.
You want to add context? As a defenseman would it be better to be competing with 6 teams worth of forwards and other D for a high place in league scoring, whether it be points or assists, or a 21 to 30 team league? Now also add being on the powerhouse team in that 6 team league when 2 or 3 of the other teams are far weaker. Can you see he difference?
Lidstrom completely dominated Norris voting in ‘08 with 127 of a possible 134 votes and I don’t even think the votes he didn’t get were justified (for example, Campbell got a 1st place vote from some drunk voter). “Double Dion” Phaneuf was hyped as the next Stevens and scored 60 points so he fooled some people so he finished 2nd and had 2 first place votes but that season also had prime Pronger, who was coming off his Cup and only missed 10 games, prime Chara, and Gonchar with 65 points. Also 24 year old Keith, who obviously had to wait for Lidstrom to get old before he could contend (that’s how it works, right?). Harvey dominating Pronovost, Gadsby, Flaman, etc. is not as impressive. There were only 6 teams so usually by default the top defenseman on each team got votes, plus Harvey’s teammate Johnson, who won it during Harvey’s injury plagued year. Talk about Bourque’s competition all you want but Harvey’s was far weaker than Lidstrom’s.
