Giordano VS Phaneuf just for something different

[Burnie97]

I am newer to the Forum. Ive read it for a long time and decided to join so I could finally post from time to time. That being said. Someone in another forum was arguing Giordano was amazing and could never be traded for Eberle and Darnell Nurse. Yet Dion a lot of people say couldn't fetch a first or anywhere near a decent return. So it got me thinking.

Giordano :

Mark Giordano #5
Calgary Flames Defenseman
NUMBER: 5 BIRTHDATE: October 3, 1983 (AGE 31)
HEIGHT: 6' 0" BIRTHPLACE: Toronto, ON, Canada
WEIGHT: 200
Shoots: Left


Stats
SPLITS
GAME LOG
NOTES
OTHER

2014-2015 SEASON STATISTICS
GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GWG S S%
REGULAR SEASON 61 11 37 48 13 37 2 1 2 157 7.0
LEAGUE RANK 429th 224th 50th 95th 63rd 216th 208th 35th 159th 137th 412th
LAST 5 GAMES 2014-2015
G A P +/- PIM PPG SHG S S% Shifts TOI PPP
Feb 25 '15 CGY @ NJD 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 2 0.0 34 25:50 1
Feb 24 '15 CGY @ NYR 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0.0 31 23:34 0
Feb 20 '15 ANA @ CGY 0 0 0 -1 0 0 0 1 0.0 28 24:15 0
Feb 18 '15 MIN @ CGY 0 0 0 -1 0 0 0 5 0.0 30 28:26 0
Feb 16 '15 BOS @ CGY 0 3 3 2 0 0 0 3 0.0 35 27:52 1
CAREER REGULAR SEASON STATISTICS
SEASON TEAM GP G A P +/- PIM PPG SHG GWG S S%
2002-2003 Owen Sound Attack-OHL 68 18 30 48 109
2003-2004 Owen Sound Attack-OHL 65 14 35 49 72
2004-2005 Lowell Lock Monsters-AHL 66 6 10 16 13 85 3 0 2
2005-2006 Flames 7 0 1 1 2 8 0 0 0 5 0.0
2005-2006 Omaha Ak-Sar-Ben Knights-AHL 73 16 42 58 -1 141 12 0 4
2006-2007 Flames 48 7 8 15 7 36 3 0 2 49 14.3
2006-2007 Omaha Ak-Sar-Ben Knights-AHL 5 0 2 2 4 8 0 0 0
2007-2008 Dynamo Moscow-Russia 50 4 8 12 89
2008-2009 Flames 58 2 17 19 2 59 2 0 0 82 2.4
2009-2010 Flames 82 11 19 30 17 81 5 0 1 111 9.9
2009-2010 Canada-WC-A 7 3 1 4 10
2010-2011 Flames 82 8 35 43 -8 67 5 0 1 165 4.8
2011-2012 Flames 61 9 18 27 0 75 5 0 0 125 7.2
2012-2013 Flames 47 4 11 15 -7 40 1 1 1 58 6.9
2013-2014 Flames 64 14 33 47 12 63 7 0 2 180 7.8
2014-2015 Flames 61 11 37 48 13 37 2 1 2 157 7.0
NHL TOTALS 510 66 179 245 38 466 30 2 9 932 7.1

Phaneuf:

2000-2001 Southgate Lions-AMBHL 35 15 50 65 208
2001-2002 Red Deer Rebels-WHL 67 5 12 17 170
2002-2003 Red Deer Rebels-WHL 71 16 14 30 28 185 6 0
2003-2004 Red Deer Rebels-WHL 62 19 24 43 11 126 8 0
2003-2004 Canada-WJC-A 6 2 2 4 29
2004-2005 Red Deer Rebels-WHL 55 24 32 56 15 73 12 0
2004-2005 Canada-WJC-A 6 1 5 6 14
2005-2006 Flames 82 20 29 49 5 93 16 0 7 242 8.3
2006-2007 Flames 79 17 33 50 10 98 13 0 4 230 7.4
2006-2007 Canada-WC-A 7 0 8 8 2
2007-2008 Flames 82 17 43 60 12 182 10 1 4 263 6.5
2008-2009 Flames 80 11 36 47 -11 100 4 0 4 277 4.0
2009-2010 Flames 55 10 12 22 3 49 5 0 2 138 7.2
2009-2010 Maple Leafs 26 2 8 10 -2 34 0 0 1 87 2.3
2010-2011 Maple Leafs 66 8 22 30 -2 88 3 0 1 190 4.2
2010-2011 Canada-WC-A 7 0 3 3 1 8 0 0 0
2011-2012 Maple Leafs 82 12 32 44 -10 92 7 0 1 202 5.9
2011-2012 Canada-WC-A 8 2 0 2 8 4 1 0 1
2012-2013 Maple Leafs 48 9 19 28 -4 65 3 0 1 88 10.2
2013-2014 Maple Leafs 80 8 23 31 2 144 2 0 0 145 5.5
2014-2015 Maple Leafs 70 3 26 29 -11 108 2 0 1 138 2.2
NHL TOTALS 750 117 283 400 -8 1,053 65 1 26 2,000 5.9

And people laugh at Leaf fans . . . WOW.

Note: games played and total points . . . and he (Giordano is asking 9 million at this point). People laugh at Dion at 7 million. If Gio gets 9 in 2 years people will be saying the same thing. Even at 7 thats not good. Stats don't tell everything but wow do people ever forget things quickly.

I am a Leaf fan. Do I think Dion is amazing? No. Do I think he is a solid 3-4 and a bit over paid? Yes.

Oh . . .

Math wise . . .

Gio = .48 points a game over his career . . .


Phaneuf = . 53 points over a longer career . . .

Yup Leaf fans defending him are crazy though.

Click to read more...

 

[thewave]

Well, Dion is a top pairing D. Very effective against guys like Crosby. You should look up those stats. Pick big name players effectiveness vs Dion and you'll see the points they put up vs him are not so hot.

It's why they take shots at him and get up in his grill. The more you know.

 

[AvroArrow]

Taking Dion's stats from 10 years ago and comparing him to the player he is today makes no sense. I can argue Jagr is one of the best players in the nhl right now, he has a higher point total and ppg than Patrick Kane. Does this comparison make sense ? absolutely not. Lets look at the last 5 years

Phaneuf since 2010-11

GP 346
G 40
A 122
Points 162
- 25
ppg = .47

Giordano since 2010-11

GP 315
G 46
A 134
Points 180
+10
ppg = .57

He outscored him by 18 points while playing 31 less games and has a better +- rating. Even if you watch them play on the ice, Giordano has better hockey IQ, skating, passing and a more accurate shot. Comparing Phaneuf to Gio is a joke. In recent years there is no doubt giordano is the better defenceman. Phaneuf was a long time ago, but those days are obviously behind him now.

EDIT: Changed the comparison from Sid to Kane, because obviously that point flew over some peoples heads

 

[PJJ]

But Giordano can actually hit the net and skate, and also plays a smart game.

 

[Burnie97]

Well I guess when he is still on the team at the start of the season or when the Leafs trade him the team doesn't get much then I won't be disappointed, but to say the comparison is a joke . . . + - is a over used stat especially on a defenceman and 18 more points . .. thas it?I lived in Calgary and Toronto. Seen both of them live numerous times. The difference I am saying isn't so far fetched. Again not saying Dion is top 1 or 2 even. but Giordano in the 9 mil and Dion at 7 . . . I'd take Dion at that price.

 

[Burnie97]

Taking Dion's stats from 10 years ago and comparing him to the player he is today makes no sense. I can argue Jagr is the best player in the nhl right now, he has a higher point total and career average than sidney crosby. Does this comparison make sense ? absolutely not. Lets look at the last 5 years

Phaneuf since 2010-11

GP 346
G 40
A 122
Points 162
- 25
ppg = .47

Giordano since 2010-11

GP 315
G 46
A 134
Points 180
+10
ppg = .57

He outscored him by 18 points while playing 31 less games and has a better +- rating. Even if you watch them play on the ice, Giordano has better hockey IQ, skating, passing and a more accurate shot. Comparing Phaneuf to Gio is a joke. In recent years there is no doubt giordano is the better defenceman. Phaneuf was a long time ago, but those days are obviously behind him now

The Jagr comparison is terrible . . . Im not comparing him to Gretzky . . . also not ten years between them. Maybe 2 or 3. . . anyhow . . .

 

[yubbers]

Well, Dion is a top pairing D. Very effective against guys like Crosby. You should look up those stats. Pick big name players effectiveness vs Dion and you'll see the points they put up vs him are not so hot.

It's why they take shots at him and get up in his grill. The more you know.

Tell that to the Boston top line

 

[Burnie97]

Tell that to the Boston top line

They have a TOP line anymore.

 

[Damisoph]

Tell that to the Boston top line

what top line

 

[yubbers]

Unfortunately those playoffs didn't start this week

 

[Damisoph]

Unfortunately those playoffs didn't start this week

so you're referencing the 2013 collapse and blaming Dion for it? Rog.

 

[yubbers]

Im saying he was laughably bad in that series.

 

[Damisoph]

Im saying he was laughably bad in that series.

okay

 

[Burnie97]

Im saying he was laughably bad in that series.

Because that was what the thread was about ? the Boston series. Get over it. Holy **** find a new team if you're still worrying about that.

Clearly it wasn't the entire team collapsing. All on Phaneuf for sure lol.

 

[yubbers]

No. The thread had a poster that mentioned Dion shuts down all the top guys. He just didn't mention that it was usually on a Tuesday night in November

 

[TheProspector]

It's really too bad that this group of guys never had a decent coach. Paul Maurice was the Leafs' last good coach.

 

[AvroArrow]

The Jagr comparison is terrible . . . Im not comparing him to Gretzky . . . also not ten years between them. Maybe 2 or 3. . . anyhow . . .

wow. I was using your own logic against you I know the Jagr comparison is terrible, what i was saying is you arguing that Dion has better career numbers against gio would be like me arguing Jagr has better numbers than Crosby, therefore he is better or even comparable to crosby. Taking stats from several years ago and comparing them to someone in current day makes no sense. Both players play against other teams top lines, Giordano does so in a much tougher environment on the West coast. He's better offensively, defensively and without the puck. He may not be worth 9m as you stated but comparing him to dion is a joke. Also i didn't say there is 10 years between them, Phaneuf started playing hockey in the nhl in 2005, so referencing numbers from 2005 would be from 10 years ago.

 

[Semantics]

Taking Dion's stats from 10 years ago and comparing him to the player he is today makes no sense. I can argue Jagr is the best player in the nhl right now, he has a higher point total and career average than sidney crosby. Does this comparison make sense ? absolutely not. Lets look at the last 5 years

Actually Crosby has a higher career average than Jagr (points per game). Only Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and Bossy are higher.

 

[AvroArrow]

Well I guess when he is still on the team at the start of the season or when the Leafs trade him the team doesn't get much then I won't be disappointed, but to say the comparison is a joke . . . + - is a over used stat especially on a defenceman and 18 more points . .. thas it?I lived in Calgary and Toronto. Seen both of them live numerous times. The difference I am saying isn't so far fetched. Again not saying Dion is top 1 or 2 even. but Giordano in the 9 mil and Dion at 7 . . . I'd take Dion at that price.

18 more points in 31 less games, you obviously don't get my point. You'd be one of the very few to take Dion. I'd much rather pay someone 2m more and actually have them be productive rather than waste 7m. I'll take a much better player at a higher salary, than a far inferior player on a cheaper salary. Don't know how else i can explain it to you

 

[Semantics]

what top line

Bergeron has 4.423 GF60 against Phaneuf vs 2.780 against all other d-men (data over 8 years). It's hard to separate out how much of this is his teammates vs Phaneuf himself ... but if Phaneuf were such a good shut down d-man I'd expect him to at least do better than the league average at preventing goals by these guys most of the time.

Player                 GF60 vs Phaneuf        GF60 vs Others

David Krejci                3.658                  2.907
Rick Nash                   3.052                  2.859
John Tavares                3.537                  2.750
*Eric Staal                 2.512                  2.716
*Martin St. Louis           2.895                  2.979
Max Pacioretty              3.276                  2.669
Patrice Bergeron            4.423                  2.780
Alex Ovechkin               3.410                  2.949
Daniel Sedin                4.245                  2.967
Steven Stamkos              3.526                  3.078
Claude Giroux               3.212                  2.728
Marian Gaborik              4.447                  3.013
*Jason Spezza               1.636                  3.081
Thomas Vanek                3.367                  2.989
*Sidney Crosby              2.151                  3.712
*Henrik Zetterberg          0.894                  2.850
Joe Thornton                5.187                  2.892
Tyler Seguin                3.838                  3.224

Also, to the guy claiming Phaneuf is good against star players, it would be the height of foolishness to assume that Phaneuf's bottom-of-the-league analytics are somehow *despite* performing well against top players. I mean you're basically saying he's good against stars, but defends like an ECHLer against 3rd and 4th lines, do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[Semantics]

Well, Dion is a top pairing D. Very effective against guys like Crosby. You should look up those stats. Pick big name players effectiveness vs Dion and you'll see the points they put up vs him are not so hot.

Phaneuf's overall stats are dreadful. If he defends so well against guys like Crosby, who is scoring all the goals against him, and why?

 

[91Kadri91*]

Not sure if serious.

Giordano is a legitimate #1 defenseman; Dion Phaneuf is a fringe top-pairing defenseman. They're not even remotely comparable.

 

[Ovate]

This may come as a shocker, but points are the best way to rate defensemen. They also need to be able to defend (amazing, I know). As well, points depends a lot on quality of teammates, zone starts and PP time.

 

[diceman934]

There is no comparison when it comes to defending and then add in leadership and you have a very lopsided comparison.

 

[Burnie97]

wow. I was using your own logic against you I know the Jagr comparison is terrible, what i was saying is you arguing that Dion has better career numbers against gio would be like me arguing Jagr has better numbers than Crosby, therefore he is better or even comparable to crosby. Taking stats from several years ago and comparing them to someone in current day makes no sense. Both players play against other teams top lines, Giordano does so in a much tougher environment on the West coast. He's better offensively, defensively and without the puck. He may not be worth 9m as you stated but comparing him to dion is a joke. Also i didn't say there is 10 years between them, Phaneuf started playing hockey in the nhl in 2005, so referencing numbers from 2005 would be from 10 years ago.

So if thats your point then why not just say gio is better then phaneuf in your opinion. The thead is on two d man in a different category altogether, and position then crosby/jagr. This gets off topic on these boards quickly I see. Again with the ten years thing ... go back and read your OP.