Post-Game Talk: Ghost of Ryan Miller’s chest vs Carl hagelins shot

[twabby]

The second round pick was probably worth the cap flexibility if nothing else. Vanecek is a perfectly cromulent backup.

I wasn’t big on keeping Vanecek this offseason because I thought another backup would be available for cheap. But the market for goaltending was quite inflated (thanks Biden!) so Vanecek’s sub-league minimum cap hit suddenly had value.

 

[txpd]

I don't get the hate on Vanecek. I'm propably not as high as most on him but an average backup? IMO he's a great 1B goalie. I would gladly trade that 2nd round pick for him again anytime.

Samsonov is the fair haired boy. Its like his quality play isn't enough. Vitek must be shot down hard. Vanecek played a .935 sv% game on the back end of a back to back. He gave up a breakaway goals and a 3 on 1. Thats all. At the minimum he was fine.

 

[trick9]

Samsonov is the fair haired boy. Its like his quality play isn't enough. Vitek must be shot down hard. Vanecek played a .935 sv% game on the back end of a back to back. He gave up a breakaway goals and a 3 on 1. Thats all. At the minimum he was fine.

People have the weirdest ways of evaluating goalies that i never really can understand. But will ask here:

Since the start of '20-'21 season:

John Gibson - 20-26-11 record - .909 SV% - 2.82 GAA
Vitek Vanecek - 26-13-9 record - .908 SV% - 2.64 GAA

Why is one of these an elite goalie and the other one average backup?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

The second round pick was probably worth the cap flexibility if nothing else. Vanecek is a perfectly cromulent backup.

I wasn’t big on keeping Vanecek this offseason because I thought another backup would be available for cheap. But the market for goaltending was quite inflated (thanks Biden!) so Vanecek’s sub-league minimum cap hit suddenly had value.

this can’t be ignored….he’s a known quantity at the minimum salary.

 

[g00n]

A little bit of everything here.

VV is a good backup at the price. No question. He does get too much shit from the Goalie Inquisition here.

But he also seems slow on the elevated shots, and maybe too deep/small in the net. Even if a shot hits the post it may not be due to cutting off an angle entirely. It could just be a shot that was well wide of the target, which was available due to a slow glove.

If the shot gets past and hits the post when the goalie is far enough out to cut the angle AND reduce the reasonable time to react, then that's a good post. If the goalie is deep and there's space and he's slow to get the glove up on a puck the shooter just blew a little wide, bad post.

 

[maacoshark]

No. I am not saying that there is one set up. I am saying the the opposition isnt going to let Ovechkin or Carlson shoot the puck. You have to deal with that problem first because who is shooting the puck into those two big bodies? Do you want to put Ovechkin in front of the goalies and shoot pucks at him? My point is that wherever you put Ov he is going to covered and so will Carlson. It still comes back to the guy with the puck being challenged to do something with it.

Sure. You could qb the pp from Carlson and put Orlov on the halfwall to shoot. I like that idea, but that means that your best puck handlers, Backstrom and then Kuzy, dont touch the puck. They are playing with this on pp2 right now. The trouble is that puck control and movement becomes the problem and they dont keep possession after setting up. Orlov is out there but I think Ive seen him go 1 chance to shoot it.

One of their recent changes has been to rotate Ovechkin and Carlson left. Ov ends up near the goal post and Carlson in Ov's office. Problem is they are still covered by the same two guys and Kuzy is now too far away from the net to be any threat at all. As with before the pk just challenges Kuzy to beat them. Its almost like the best option is to take 8 off the pp and play a 5 man balanced thing. But that is surrendering to the tactics against.

I would have no problem moving Ovi in front of the net. He has proven that he can score from area. We should take note that hasn't scoring on the onetimer from the left faceoff circle. He has found other ways to score.
In fact I think he has been more success on the pp this year when he sneaks down low to the post.

 

[DWGie26]

I missed last four games due to life craziness. So came to get caught up and would have thought we had lost 4 in a row based on what i am reading. Haha.

 

[maacoshark]

this can’t be ignored….he’s a known quantity at the minimum salary.

Since we are talking about backup goalies with potential. I'm very curious about this Luukkonen fella we watched lastnight. I have heard of him but never saw him play. After watching lastnight I liked his game. A big and athletic goalie. He looked decent technically. Small sample size so it's hard to say how good he is. He kind of reminded me of a young Pekka Rinne.

 

[txpd]

I would have no problem moving Ovi in front of the net. He has proven that he can score from area. We should take note that hasn't scoring on the onetimer from the left faceoff circle. He has found other ways to score.
In fact I think he has been more success on the pp this year when he sneaks down low to the post.

Its true. If they can get him the puck or a rebound in close on his wing has been better than the one timer. That said, dont the Caps have several players that are as good as he is close to the net? Certainly Oshie is. Do they have anyone that can score for 30ft+ that are as good as him? Arent you taking a weapon away when you do that? Its also easy to cover him in front of the goalie. They can go back to defending with 4 guys rather than 3 guys plus the 1 on Ovechkin.

One more thing. The guy that goes to the front of the net is going to take a beating and get hit with shots. Are you sure you want Ov to take that pounding when Oshie and Wilson could do it?

 

[maacoshark]

Its true. If they can get him the puck or a rebound in close on his wing has been better than the one timer. That said, dont the Caps have several players that are as good as he is close to the net? Certainly Oshie is. Do they have anyone that can score for 30ft+ that are as good as him? Arent you taking a weapon away when you do that? Its also easy to cover him in front of the goalie. They can go back to defending with 4 guys rather than 3 guys plus the 1 on Ovechkin.

One more thing. The guy that goes to the front of the net is going to take a beating and get hit with shots. Are you sure you want Ov to take that pounding when Oshie and Wilson could do it?

I'd be fine with Ovi instead of Oshie in front of the net. Ovi is a strong man and can handle him self very well in high traffic areas. I'm not convinced Oshie is as good in front of the net. He gets man handled every game. He is always getting knocked down to the ice flopping around like a fish out of water. He is either getting manhandled or he is diving. Pick your choice.
Oshie is much better a little higher in the slot where he is great on deflections.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

You’re doing the defense a favor by putting Ovechkin in front of the net where the D can easily close the gap…his net presence on the PP should be limited to an occasional rotation at most IMO.

 

[txpd]

I'd be fine with Ovi instead of Oshie in front of the net. Ovi is a strong man and can handle him self very well in high traffic areas. I'm not convinced Oshie is as good in front of the net. He gets man handled every game. He is always getting knocked down to the ice flopping around like a fish out of water. He is either getting manhandled or he is diving. Pick your choice.
Oshie is much better a little higher in the slot where he is great on deflections.

Flopping like a fish eh? Ok. You are willing to risk Ov breaking his hand on a shot standing in front of shots? Who is taking these shots? That remains the problem. PKs are taking Ov's shot away now. He wont have shot in front of the goalie. They will continue to take Carlson's shot away. Who is shooting it and from where?

 

[txpd]

You’re doing the defense a favor by putting Ovechkin in front of the net where the D can easily close the gap…his net presence on the PP should be limited to an occasional rotation at most IMO.

Ovechkin can blow a puck thru a goalie at 35ft. He's the only guy on the team that can do that. You have taken a weapon out of your arsenal if you put him where another player can be successful. The pk doesnt want to see that one timer any more and are making special game plans to stop it. Here the Caps just take that off the board themselves.

The point here is that revamping a star laiden, role fully developed power play isn't that easy.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

I don't get the hate on Vanecek. I'm propably not as high as most on him but an average backup? IMO he's a great 1B goalie. I would gladly trade that 2nd round pick for him again anytime.

Hate is a strong word for guys like Jeff Schultz etc. Some of us don't see VV being a top NHL goalie, but he indeed makes a good backup. I think it's a good situation to be in when we all debate about VV. Absolutely, you take the proven player over a pick any day.

 

[maacoshark]

Ovechkin can blow a puck thru a goalie at 35ft. He's the only guy on the team that can do that. You have taken a weapon out of your arsenal if you put him where another player can be successful. The pk doesnt want to see that one timer any more and are making special game plans to stop it. Here the Caps just take that off the board themselves.

The point here is that revamping a star laiden, role fully developed power play isn't that easy.

Wow you are as stubborn as Forsythe. Sure Ovi can blow a puck through a goalie from 35 feet but he isn't really done it on the pp.. It isn't working.
And BTW we have a couple of guys with big shots from the point in Carlson and Orlov. Carlson actually has a harder shot than Ovi.
Something has to change on the pp. End of story.

 

[txpd]

Wow you are as stubborn as Forsythe. Sure Ovi can blow a puck through a goalie from 35 feet but he isn't really done it on the pp.. It isn't working.
And BTW we have a couple of guys with big shots from the point in Carlson and Orlov. Carlson actually has a harder shot than Ovi.
Something has to change on the pp. End of story.

I am not stubborn. I am giving you a straight forward evaluation. Ovechkin does stuff the other players cant do. Move him to where you suggest and he wont be able to do them either. At present Carlson is being defended as tightly from shooting at Ovechkin. Its why he isnt shooting. They could use Orlov as a shooter in the Kuzy spot but that pass has to come from Carlson. Makes it easy to take that away. Particularly if you have moved Ovechkin to the front of the net.

I am simply saying that its not an easy fix. Backstrom will fix a lot of these problems. Sometimes I dont think we give near enough credit for what all Backstrom does that looks simple and basic that makes the whole thing work

 

[maacoshark]

I am not stubborn. I am giving you a straight forward evaluation. Ovechkin does stuff the other players cant do. Move him to where you suggest and he wont be able to do them either. At present Carlson is being defended as tightly from shooting at Ovechkin. Its why he isnt shooting. They could use Orlov as a shooter in the Kuzy spot but that pass has to come from Carlson. Makes it easy to take that away. Particularly if you have moved Ovechkin to the front of the net.

I am simply saying that its not an easy fix. Backstrom will fix a lot of these problems. Sometimes I dont think we give near enough credit for what all Backstrom does that looks simple and basic that makes the whole thing work

I didn't say it was an easy fix. But I think they have to try something different. Atleast temporarily. Teams are taking away Carlson and Ovi. Kuzy hangs onto the puck for too long on the half wall. Once we get setup there is very little movement and the passes aren't quick enough to find an open guy.
As for Backstrom, I give him all the credit in the world. I know he has carried this pp unit on his shoulders for several years. He is definitely the biggest piece we are missing.

 

[txpd]

I didn't say it was an easy fix. But I think they have to try something different. Atleast temporarily. Teams are taking away Carlson and Ovi. Kuzy hangs onto the puck for too long on the half wall. Once we get setup there is very little movement and the passes aren't quick enough to find an open guy.
As for Backstrom, I give him all the credit in the world. I know he has carried this pp unit on his shoulders for several years. He is definitely the biggest piece we are missing.

I must be doing a terrible job of explaining myself. Lets try this. Ov leads the NHL in power play shots. Maybe he should score a few. Kuznetsov is one shot on goal from being top 10 in the league on power play shots. He has 1 goal. Maybe he should score a few.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I would almost try having Ovi rotate all the way to the right circle as a new wrinkle to imitate this type of setup.



They can execute that play. Ovi sets up like Matthews, Kuzy makes the cross ice pass like Nylander and Carlson coordinates like Rielly. You just need a left hand shot as a backdoor tap in option like Sheary and a right hand shooter in the slot like Oshie.

They need some alternate system with more movement. The main flaw of our PP is how static it's become. It's like no one moves at all, so the defending team presses at the point and the LW, which only allows Kuzy to shoot.

 

[PlushMinus]

I think it's good for people on here to discuss the PP and what ails it and have ideas about fixing it. Kind of the whole point of a message board.

My concern would be that the coaching staff have done NOTHING to change the PP. They seem to share TXPD's view that "once Backstrom returns it will all be just fine".

So how about this scenario: Backstrom returns and oh shit he gets injured right away or even worse he finds that he's still not healthy enough to be in the lineup and goes on LTIR or something?
Suddenly the coaches are going to be scrambling for a solution?? Seems very short-sighted.

 

[txpd]

I would almost try having Ovi rotate all the way to the right circle as a new wrinkle to imitate this type of setup.



They can execute that play. Ovi sets up like Matthews, Kuzy makes the cross ice pass like Nylander and Carlson coordinates like Rielly. You just need a left hand shot as a backdoor tap in option like Sheary and a right hand shooter in the slot like Oshie.

They need some alternate system with more movement. The main flaw of our PP is how static it's become. It's like no one moves at all, so the defending team presses at the point and the LW, which only allows Kuzy to shoot.

Thats all fine but the penalty kill is checking Ovechkin 1 on 1. wherever he goes 1 of those guys follows him. So he wouldnt be standing in the right wing circle all by himself like that. Also, that pk awful. Kuzy takes that cross ice pass thru the box any time its there. Teams dont allow that unless its a mistake.

In the last game Ovechkin and Carlson switched. The guy that takes Carlson away switched and took Ov away and the guy that took Ov away got Carlson. Ive got no problem giving that I try. I am just reminding you that the problem with that is that Ovechkin is getting 1 on 1 coverage and is more often skating out of the play to take the defender with him than getting open like that.

 

[txpd]

My concern would be that the coaching staff have done NOTHING to change the PP. They seem to share TXPD's view that "once Backstrom returns it will all be just fine"..

What is your definition of "something"? They have made several adjustments. Are you talking about major structural changes or changes in tactics?

Edit: Keeping in mind that Ovechkin leads the league in pp shots on goal and Kuzy is tied for 11th. In the last 18 games Ov has 2 ppg and Kuzy 0 ppg. Oshie hasn't been playing and lead the team in ppg last season. He hasn't scored 1 since opening night.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Thats all fine but the penalty kill is checking Ovechkin 1 on 1. wherever he goes 1 of those guys follows him. So he wouldnt be standing in the right wing circle all by himself like that. Also, that pk awful. Kuzy takes that cross ice pass thru the box any time its there. Teams dont allow that unless its a mistake.

In the last game Ovechkin and Carlson switched. The guy that takes Carlson away switched and took Ov away and the guy that took Ov away got Carlson. Ive got no problem giving that I try. I am just reminding you that the problem with that is that Ovechkin is getting 1 on 1 coverage and is more often skating out of the play to take the defender with him than getting open like that.

You make it sound like he'll never be open again. What I'm saying is if you put movement into the formation and try things that are unusual, the PK will get confused and not know what to do next. They will default to covering Ovi but then he'd be on his forehand on the RW and he can find someone backdoor for a tap in. The weakest part of any diamond formation PK, which is the main formation used against our PP, is low to high passes. That turns the diamond into a square which opens up the cross ice pass lane.

You just gotta have a guy who can shoot right off of these passes coming down the strong side with speed.

Here's another example.



- Marner actually goes low to high by himself, which brings Pietrangelo with him all the way to the point. Notice how Matthews is following the play.

- Pietrangelo tries to recover by following Nylander down the RW, and the diamond PK becomes a square. That opens up the passing lane.

- The cross ice pass comes, and Pietrangelo is stuck in the middle not covering anybody. Tavares sets the screen, Lehner needs to push hard across but Matthews snipes him.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

More movement is a great idea….Caps PP has needed that at times forever it seems, but you can’t let your own PP design do the defense’s work for them either.

 

[tycoonheart]

I mean, people keep bringing up ideas on what COULD be done with the PP, and we still have other folks here who keep saying "NO THAT WON'T WORK". At this point if you're the Caps coaches, you have to try anything.