Value of: General positional value?

[Critical13]

Good goaltending can be erratic. Look at Carey Price this year. Positional players tend to be more consistent year to year with less variance. Yes, you can use the example of this year with Vezina finalists, but last year none of the final 4 were nominated. In 2016 one of the finalist was in the final 4. In 2015, none of the finalists made it, same with 2014 and 2013. So, this year seems to be a statistical aberration against current trends. You need competent and good goaltending, but not elite.

The big thing is, if you are saying goaltending is your centerpiece are you paying him the most, due to him being of the highest value in your opinion? Pretty much every-team that wins highest paid player is a center. I think Doughty made more than Kopitar one of the Cups and Chara made the most on the Bruins. But, Pens and Blackhawks (tie between Toews and Kane) who account for 6 of the last 10 cups highest paid players were their franchise centers. No team won with their goalie being the most expensive piece.

Exactly. A top end goaltender is important, but people pointing to this year I think are looking at the short game, not the long game. There is no chance I trade Doughty, Matthews, Scheifele, Josi or Hedman for a goalie. I wouldn't even blink before I shot that down.

 

[boredmale]

Exactly. A top end goaltender is important, but people pointing to this year I think are looking at the short game, not the long game. There is no chance I trade Doughty, Matthews, Scheifele, Josi or Hedman for a goalie. I wouldn't even blink before I shot that down.

What if it was a top end goalie on a sweetheart deal(say like 5M for 5 years)

 

[Critical13]

I think OP needs to provide some stats/player or trade examples of the positions to clarify what parameters he is using for each position/depth ranking and what constitutes as average? I’d take an “average” top line W (Ehlers/M. Stone both ranked 15th in scoring for LW and RWs) over an average 2C. They are ranked one after the other so it's not like it is way out to lunch.

Team needs play a huge part in these rankings too.

That is why I think positions 3, 4 and 5 are all extremely close, and it comes down to team need there. The hierarchy is more of a general overview, and you have to consider age as well. I wouldn't deal Ehlers for a 2nd line C right now, but if he was 30 and the same player he is today, and you took Stastny's numbers and applied them to a 22 year old C, then all of a sudden a deal makes much more sense.

I will look at stats tonight, but off the top of my head....

Average 2nd line C - 50-55 points
Average 1st line W - 60-65 points

+/- 5-8 points or so.

 

[Critical13]

What if it was a top end goalie on a sweetheart deal(say like 5M for 5 years)

I still don't do it. Just my own preference, but I would rather have an elite # 1 D/C and an average G than an elite G and an average #1 D/C.

 

[DRW204]

That is why I think positions 3, 4 and 5 are all extremely close, and it comes down to team need there. The hierarchy is more of a general overview, and you have to consider age as well. I wouldn't deal Ehlers for a 2nd line C right now, but if he was 30 and the same player he is today, and you took Stastny's numbers and applied them to a 22 year old C, then all of a sudden a deal makes much more sense.

I will look at stats tonight, but off the top of my head....

Average 2nd line C - 50-55 points
Average 1st line W - 60-65 points

+/- 5-8 points or so.

Yeah age and contract status throw other wrenches in the argument. the 45th ranked C i believe was Nick Schmaltz (the list had a few guys ie: Marner and Keller who are listed as C but played W). Would you take Schmaltz over Ehlers (same draft year) or Stone?

 

[Grabner]

That is why I think positions 3, 4 and 5 are all extremely close, and it comes down to team need there. The hierarchy is more of a general overview, and you have to consider age as well. I wouldn't deal Ehlers for a 2nd line C right now, but if he was 30 and the same player he is today, and you took Stastny's numbers and applied them to a 22 year old C, then all of a sudden a deal makes much more sense.

I will look at stats tonight, but off the top of my head....

Average 2nd line C - 50-55 points
Average 1st line W - 60-65 points

+/- 5-8 points or so.

Basically Kadri vs Forsberg, I think most people takes Forsberg TBH, but I do agree with the 1C>1D> the rest; but to say that 1st line wingers are less valuable is really a case by case basis (just look at your team, Marner or Nylander> Kadri)

This is a list of the NHL 2nd line Centers:
Kesler, Dvorak, Kreijci, O'Reilly, Backlund, Rask, Schmaltz, Foligno, Kerfoot, Spezza, Zetterberg, RNH, Trocheck, Carter, Koivu, Danault, Turris, Zajac, Barzal, Hayes, Pageau, Patrick, Malkin, Thornton, Sundqvist, Point, Kadri, Horvat, Haula, Kuznetsov, Statsny

The bolded players could definitely fetch an average 1st liner (but some of them could well be 1st line centers themselves)

 

[MessierII]

The goalie market is almost a completely separate entity with its own boom and bust cycle.

 

[Maukkis]

For those claiming that goaltenders are the most valuable (or close to that, anyway):

In 2015, Carey Price was coming off what is still considered one of the best seasons for a goaltender in recent memory (.933 Sv%, 1.96 GAA). He won four individual awards, including the Hart and the Pearson to go with the obvious goaltending awards.

An average goaltender with exactly the same workload than Price faced that year would have saved 36.7 goals less than Price did. No more, no less. In other words, Price was better than average by 36.7 goals.

By the way, that is the best performance in years. This year, no goalie reached 30.

Now, who wants to measure how much worse an average defenseman would perform in the role of a Norris winner? If Ottawa had had the 100th best defenseman running the entire team on ice last year, does that affect them by more than 36.7 goals? I have a hunch that the answer would be a resounding yes. Or, how about the Oilers running with Lars Eller instead of McDavid?

Long story short: goaltending can keep you in games and even make it f***ing hard to lose, but ultimately, they cannot win you games. Skaters can - high-end ones in particular - and therefore, they carry much more value.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

It depends on what quality of player. Kucherov and Atkinson are both top line wingers. Crosby and Couture are both top line centers. Doesn’t mean you take Couture over Kucherov.

 

[BleedBlue14]

Goalies seem to have the least amount of trade value

Top end yes comparing to top end skaters. That being said, most people don't trade franchise goalies unless they see their window closing so really there is a small sample size.

You see a lot of the higher level backups being targeted by a lot of teams in FA/some trades. That being said you don't see many 4th liners being given a contract over 1m through FA or being traded for more than future considerations. There are a few exceptions I.e. penguins trading down in draft for Reaves but he is the niche and. It anywhere near the norm, Nor will he get paid above 1m/yr

 

[SML2]

Sam Pollock one of the greatest GM's ever said you build from the goaltender out.

If I dug hard enough I could quote you a military leader who would tell you how important archers are on the battlefield. Sam Pollock knows about Sam Pollocks era. No cap. No free agency. This is a different era and the difference between the best goalie in the game and the worst one is probably a goal a game. You cannot overpay at that position anymore. Nobody who is winning cups has the highest paid goalie when they're doing it and it's not coincidence.

 

[Critical13]

It depends on what quality of player. Kucherov and Atkinson are both top line wingers. Crosby and Couture are both top line centers. Doesn’t mean you take Couture over Kucherov.

I stated multiple times this is a comparison of average players at each position. Obviously elite wingers are worth more than 2nd line Cs.

Very first line:
How do you weigh position when you are looking at a trade. For sake of argument, imagine each player being the "average" quality for each position.

 

[Critical13]

Yeah age and contract status throw other wrenches in the argument. the 45th ranked C i believe was Nick Schmaltz (the list had a few guys ie: Marner and Keller who are listed as C but played W). Would you take Schmaltz over Ehlers (same draft year) or Stone?

I don't consider Stone average, because of his defense. I was thinking more along the lines of Radulov , Hoffman or Ehlers. Compare them to Turris, Stastny, Kadri, Point, RoR. In most those cases, I take the C. Schmaltz is on the low end IMO of 2nd line Cs, but I would still take him over some low end 1st line wingers.

Basically Kadri vs Forsberg, I think most people takes Forsberg TBH, but I do agree with the 1C>1D> the rest; but to say that 1st line wingers are less valuable is really a case by case basis (just look at your team, Marner or Nylander> Kadri)

This is a list of the NHL 2nd line Centers:
Kesler, Dvorak, Kreijci, O'Reilly, Backlund, Rask, Schmaltz, Foligno, Kerfoot, Spezza, Zetterberg, RNH, Trocheck, Carter, Koivu, Danault, Turris, Zajac, Barzal, Hayes, Pageau, Patrick, Malkin, Thornton, Sundqvist, Point, Kadri, Horvat, Haula, Kuznetsov, Statsny

The bolded players could definitely fetch an average 1st liner (but some of them could well be 1st line centers themselves)

I don't think Kadri vs Forsberg is fair if you account for GP. Forsberg is an above average 1st line winger, he scores at nearly a PPG pace.

 

[WhoTagz]

I think backup is very crucial in a sense that if the number one goes down the backup can play a solid amount of games.

 

[simon IC]

I would put #1D above #1C, but that is about the only change I would make. #1D and #1C are close, but I would give the edge in value to the D because I think they are a little bit more rare than C's, and they also usually take longer to develop.

 

[I am Canadian]

Speaking of which - are RHD more valuable than LHD?

 

[simon IC]

Speaking of which - are RHD more valuable than LHD?

I would say yes, but only because they aren't as plentiful.