TSN: Garrioch: Boucher going nowhere

[Do Make Say Think]

Without a doubt, there's a bit of a shiny new toy syndrome that comes with young players and prospects, but I don't think it's fair to write off this particular situation where a coach was clearly in the wrong just based on a blanket statement. It's not like it's that out of the ordinary for top prospects to be able to play in the NHL at the age of 21, we're not talking about 18 year olds fresh out of the draft here.

There is no way to prove he was wrong. Just like there is no way to prove he was right.

At the end of the day however, both players are considerably better than they first were. That is what I put stock in; right or wrong, it is working just fine.

 

[BK201]

No, I stated that in my opinion, the location was the biggest problem.


BTW, I've never been "treated like crap", and don't know anyone that has.

Could you elaborate, and give us an example of when you were "treated like crap"?

I bought best seats in the house through my STH sales rep. reserved for game 3 against pittsburgh when greening scored in OT. The problem was they called me 2 weeks after I purchased and said I couldn't have those seats ,what they were doing with them is none of my business and would receive "better" tickets which i argued you cannot beat these seats and they were lieing to me. they were they were hoping i didn't know what i had purchased.

When I got to the game I had a partial camera block. Meaning the Camera man was partially blocking the ice all night long.

after the game I called Capital tickets i told them as a season ticket holder I expect an apology or I will cancel my tickets.verbatim what i was told" your cancellation confirmation will be sent to you within the 1/2 hour".

I am no longer a STH with the sens. Over the past years I have emailed them talked to ticket reps, talked to top ticket people marketing on THIS website. no one gives a f***.

All they have to say is "I'm sorry for lieing to you" and I'll buy tickets again it's been years and years and years and every so often someone a rep from senators tries, i explain the situation, and they dissapear.

basically everytime they cry for tickets sales I think suck my f***ing balls you assholes.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Its a trickle down effect from an Owner that medels and wont higher real professionals to do the job. Who do you think hires the GM exactly? If you cant connect these two issues I am not sure what to say. Nickle and diming coach after coach, whos fault is that? Cutting back on hockey ops, scouts etc... Melnyk is the source of the problems, this organization needs an overhaul.

Why is it that the Sens have to be the only organization that can't hire guys without NHL experience when many other teams around the NHL do it?

Steve Yzerman had never GM'd and Jon Cooper had never coached in the NHL.
Don Sweeney had never GM'd but had been Asst. GM for 6 years before his promotion. Bruce Cassidy had a minor stint with the Capitals from 2002-2004, didn't head coach professionally until 2011-2012 with Providence and then got promoted in 2016 after Julien was fired.
Jason Botterill had never GM'd but had been AGM from 2014-2017 before getting the GM job in Buffalo. Phil Housley had coached high school hockey before he joined the Preds as an assistant and then got hired as head coach in Buffalo this season.
Bob Boughner had 2 seasons as an assistant in San Jose before getting hired this year by the Panthers. He had never been a head coach before at the professional level.
Jeff Blashill had never been a head coach at the NHL level. He was an assistant to Babcock for one year in 2011 before he coached in the AHL and then eventually became HC in 2015 after Babcock left.
Doug Weight had never coached at the NHL level, was an assistant under Capuano from 2012-2017 before he got promoted. And while Garth Snow has been the GM there since 2006 he had literally no management experience at all before he took that job.
Bill Peters had never been head coach, assisted in Detroit for 3 years before taking the job in Carolina.
John Hynes had never been a head coach in the NHL and had 5 seasons of HC experience in the AHL before his promotion.
Remind me where Dave Hakstol had coached before he took the HC job in Phialdelphia?

I could keep going but I think you get the point. You can go down a list of every team in the league and inspect their front office and coaching staffs and find guys who are getting their first breaks at those positions. You use the term "real professional" like there's some kind of easy-to-understand methodology as to what makes one coach great and the other not. Or what makes one GM "real professional" and one the kind of guy a "cheap, meddling" owner would hire.

There are a lot of things that we can blame Melnyk for. And a lot of things we can blame the players and coaching staff for. And there are even some things we can blame the fans for. But this insinuation all the time that these guys aren't trying their best to get the result we ultimately want is so hyperbolic that it's starting to become offensive. And constantly droning on about the ownership just doesn't make sense.

This team has a goalie playing the worst season of his career and his backup also playing the worst season of his career and you're in here talking about the owner of the team. It just doesn't seem to correlate that the woes of ownership that you have such a problem with could translate to the goalies having terrible years.

 

[JD1]

Why is it that the Sens have to be the only organization that can't hire guys without NHL experience when many other teams around the NHL do it?

Steve Yzerman had never GM'd and Jon Cooper had never coached in the NHL.
Don Sweeney had never GM'd but had been Asst. GM for 6 years before his promotion. Bruce Cassidy had a minor stint with the Capitals from 2002-2004, didn't head coach professionally until 2011-2012 with Providence and then got promoted in 2016 after Julien was fired.
Jason Botterill had never GM'd but had been AGM from 2014-2017 before getting the GM job in Buffalo. Phil Housley had coached high school hockey before he joined the Preds as an assistant and then got hired as head coach in Buffalo this season.
Bob Boughner had 2 seasons as an assistant in San Jose before getting hired this year by the Panthers. He had never been a head coach before at the professional level.
Jeff Blashill had never been a head coach at the NHL level. He was an assistant to Babcock for one year in 2011 before he coached in the AHL and then eventually became HC in 2015 after Babcock left.
Doug Weight had never coached at the NHL level, was an assistant under Capuano from 2012-2017 before he got promoted. And while Garth Snow has been the GM there since 2006 he had literally no management experience at all before he took that job.
Bill Peters had never been head coach, assisted in Detroit for 3 years before taking the job in Carolina.
John Hynes had never been a head coach in the NHL and had 5 seasons of HC experience in the AHL before his promotion.
Remind me where Dave Hakstol had coached before he took the HC job in Phialdelphia?

I could keep going but I think you get the point. You can go down a list of every team in the league and inspect their front office and coaching staffs and find guys who are getting their first breaks at those positions. You use the term "real professional" like there's some kind of easy-to-understand methodology as to what makes one coach great and the other not. Or what makes one GM "real professional" and one the kind of guy a "cheap, meddling" owner would hire.

There are a lot of things that we can blame Melnyk for. And a lot of things we can blame the players and coaching staff for. And there are even some things we can blame the fans for. But this insinuation all the time that these guys aren't trying their best to get the result we ultimately want is so hyperbolic that it's starting to become offensive. And constantly droning on about the ownership just doesn't make sense.

This team has a goalie playing the worst season of his career and his backup also playing the worst season of his career and you're in here talking about the owner of the team. It just doesn't seem to correlate that the woes of ownership that you have such a problem with could translate to the goalies having terrible years.

don't bother going on....but don't assume he got the point

 

[bert]

Why is it that the Sens have to be the only organization that can't hire guys without NHL experience when many other teams around the NHL do it?

Steve Yzerman had never GM'd and Jon Cooper had never coached in the NHL.
Don Sweeney had never GM'd but had been Asst. GM for 6 years before his promotion. Bruce Cassidy had a minor stint with the Capitals from 2002-2004, didn't head coach professionally until 2011-2012 with Providence and then got promoted in 2016 after Julien was fired.
Jason Botterill had never GM'd but had been AGM from 2014-2017 before getting the GM job in Buffalo. Phil Housley had coached high school hockey before he joined the Preds as an assistant and then got hired as head coach in Buffalo this season.
Bob Boughner had 2 seasons as an assistant in San Jose before getting hired this year by the Panthers. He had never been a head coach before at the professional level.
Jeff Blashill had never been a head coach at the NHL level. He was an assistant to Babcock for one year in 2011 before he coached in the AHL and then eventually became HC in 2015 after Babcock left.
Doug Weight had never coached at the NHL level, was an assistant under Capuano from 2012-2017 before he got promoted. And while Garth Snow has been the GM there since 2006 he had literally no management experience at all before he took that job.
Bill Peters had never been head coach, assisted in Detroit for 3 years before taking the job in Carolina.
John Hynes had never been a head coach in the NHL and had 5 seasons of HC experience in the AHL before his promotion.
Remind me where Dave Hakstol had coached before he took the HC job in Phialdelphia?

I could keep going but I think you get the point. You can go down a list of every team in the league and inspect their front office and coaching staffs and find guys who are getting their first breaks at those positions. You use the term "real professional" like there's some kind of easy-to-understand methodology as to what makes one coach great and the other not. Or what makes one GM "real professional" and one the kind of guy a "cheap, meddling" owner would hire.

There are a lot of things that we can blame Melnyk for. And a lot of things we can blame the players and coaching staff for. And there are even some things we can blame the fans for. But this insinuation all the time that these guys aren't trying their best to get the result we ultimately want is so hyperbolic that it's starting to become offensive. And constantly droning on about the ownership just doesn't make sense.

This team has a goalie playing the worst season of his career and his backup also playing the worst season of his career and you're in here talking about the owner of the team. It just doesn't seem to correlate that the woes of ownership that you have such a problem with could translate to the goalies having terrible years.

You compared Dorion to Yzerman... Dorion never even played Jr hockey. Yzerman was one of the greatest NHL captains in the history of hockey and was mentored by Ken Holland. These are not the same.

My point is sure you can hire people without NHL experience sure I never said otherwise, but when there is a revolving door of NHL coachs maybe going to get one with more than one good year of experience in the NHL could create some stability.

Pierre Dorion is not a real professional General Manager he does not have the resume to be an NHL GM, he was barely even an assistant GM before being promoted. He is a hockey FAN he named his damn dog Erik. The guy walked right over the logo in the middle of Bingos dressing room while staring down the players 2 minutes before the game. If you have been around the game at all or in a dressing room of any team at a decent level you know this is unnaceptable. He is a great amateur scout, he is not an NHL general manager.

I apologize for offending you that I am unhappy with the ownership. If you arent unhappy with this ownership then I dont know what to tell you. Are you going to defend cutting hockey ops? Releasing scouts, having no front office? I just dont understand how you can ignore all of these facts and continue to defend ownership.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

There is no way to prove he was wrong. Just like there is no way to prove he was right.

At the end of the day however, both players are considerably better than they first were. That is what I put stock in; right or wrong, it is working just fine.

There is anecdotal evidence such as Pierre Dorion raving about Colin White being NHL ready a year before he was assigned to the AHL, or Dorion attempting to emergency recall Thomas Chabot for the playoffs in spite of us having veteran NHL/AHL defenders in the system.

How can you say that there is no way to prove he was wrong, and then say that both players are considerably better than they were? That seems like a contradiction to me. If you are admitting that there is no way to know how good they would have been playing full time NHL roles at the beginning of the season, how do you know that the players are considerably better than they were at the start of the season in that role? Of course young players are usually always getting better this early in their career, so a better way to phrase that is, how would you know they were so much worse at the start of the season, that they wouldn't have been able to handle and play well in the NHL?

 

[Ray Kinsella]

people saying it's not fair to fire boucher after one bad season. it's not like there's precedent from his last two head coaching positions of having a team over achieve then fall of a cliff the next season. we should totally keep boucher around I'm sure he will figure it out! seems like a smart, level headed and flexible guy! I would love to have him as our head coach with all of our young players next season!

In fact, there is just that: a precedent from his last two head coaching positions. How do you figure he's flexible?

 

[toxic poster]

In fact, there is just that: a precedent from his last two head coaching positions. How do you figure he's flexible?

This was sarcasm.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

This was sarcasm.

Then I take it all back

 

[DJB]

Surely im not the only one that has noticed a change in our system no?

All 3 forwards now battling down low with high intensity. No longer that third forward high which can't go past the top of the circles.

D are also allowed to pinch and go down low which is a huge change.

D seem to still be able to step up but we are no longer trying to direct everything down our left side.

No more 1 3 1 as well. Just seems like an all out gangbusters back check.

Still passive box in d zone though .

Appears to be a more traditional style pf play and the results are obvious

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Surely im not the only one that has noticed a change in our system no?

All 3 forwards now battling down low with high intensity. No longer that third forward high which can't go past the top of the circles.

D are also allowed to pinch and go down low which is a huge change.

D seem to still be able to step up but we are no longer trying to direct everything down our left side.

No more 1 3 1 as well. Just seems like an all out gangbusters back check.

Still passive box in d zone though .

Appears to be a more traditional style pf play and the results are obvious

You're right. Ive even heard and/or read a few soundbites of players referencing the changes.

 

[DJB]

You're right. Ive even heard and/or read a few soundbites of players referencing the changes.

Do you happen to have those? Id love to hear them?

 

[Very Stable Genius]

Absolutely brilliant.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Do you happen to have those? Id love to hear them?

Oh man that could be tough. I know one was from an article post game recently where Chabot talked about it and I've heard it on TSN 1200 in player interviews.

 

[Micklebot]

Surely im not the only one that has noticed a change in our system no?

All 3 forwards now battling down low with high intensity. No longer that third forward high which can't go past the top of the circles.

D are also allowed to pinch and go down low which is a huge change.

D seem to still be able to step up but we are no longer trying to direct everything down our left side.

No more 1 3 1 as well. Just seems like an all out gangbusters back check.

Still passive box in d zone though .

Appears to be a more traditional style pf play and the results are obvious

I've definitely noticed some of this. Tbh, some of it was present at the start of the year as well before Karlsson got back.

I said it before, the end of this season is a bit of an audition for Boucher to show his ability to adapt (in my mind at least). I think he can still be successful, as there are certainly elements where he has been quite good. We do, however, need to fix the special teams, on the bright side,we're clicking at around 20% over the last 15 games for the PP. PK has continued to struggle though.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I've definitely noticed some of this. Tbh, some of it was present at the start of the year as well before Karlsson got back.

I said it before, the end of this season is a bit of an audition for Boucher to show his ability to adapt (in my mind at least). I think he can still be successful, as there are certainly elements where he has been quite good. We do, however, need to fix the special teams, on the bright side,we're clicking at around 20% over the last 15 games for the PP. PK has continued to struggle though.

For me at least it is really difficult to gauge the subtleties of the changes in coaching now.. the win / loss importance has dwindled and the players are playing more relaxed and in situations like this, more for pride and for each other. When Ryan comes back and having a relatively healthy team with the addition of Gaborik if they have more success it will be hard to attribute it to coaching changes although that could be a part of it.

 

[Satoru Gojo]

So apparently Boucher and his staff will be reevaluated at seasons end...makes sense

Whats the verdict on Boucher here these days?

Most still want him gone??

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

So apparently Boucher and his staff will be reevaluated at seasons end...makes sense

Whats the verdict on Boucher here these days?

Most still want him gone??

Honestly, I haven't even thought about it since February.

If it's a tear-down, he stays. If we try to reload, he may be gone, but I bet he will be the coach come season opener one way or another.

 

[stempniaksen]

So apparently Boucher and his staff will be reevaluated at seasons end...makes sense

Whats the verdict on Boucher here these days?

Most still want him gone??

Depends who we bring in. I actually think Boucher is a decent coach, as long as he's open to adapting (which he's shown a bit of). I don't anticipate Melnyk shelling out for a top-end coach even if one became available and the last thing I want to do is downgrade from Boucher to a Clouston, Hartsburg, Paddock, Cameron level of coach. Bit of a situation of picking the evil I know vs the evil I don't.

 

[Zorf]

I would prefer that the Senators find a different coach. I'm not convinced that Boucher has the ability to adapt to teams figuring is system out.

That being said, the corner stone of the whole system is Karlsson, and he wasn't healthy for most of the year and he wasn't paired with anyone who could actually help him out for the entire year. The loss of Methot and the injury to Karlsson threw the whole system off, and (here's where my concern kicks in), Boucher never adapted it!

If the whole system is based on forcing the opposing team up the left side (their right) and then jamming in the neutral zone so they dump the puck in for EK to retrieve it, then why wouldn't you make changes if EK wasn't able to retireve the puck as easily or evade the forechecking pressure? Also, the loss of MEthot with the replacement of everyone else meant that the jamming in the neutral zone wasn't nearly as effective, so the whole thing fell apart.


I don't know if it's a lack of awareness on his part, or just being stubborn as a mule, but that's a massive red flag for me. If you can't move and adjust with the winds of change, then you're quickly left behind.

That and (up until recently) his constant use of vets over younger players. The season was well and over in January. There was quite a lot of development opportunity lost for the key prospects in the organization.



So yeah, I'd like a new coach.

 

[topshelf15]

Crawford i wouldnt mind keeping.... Boucher iam not sure of

 

[DrakeAndJosh]

I've always liked Boucher but I'd probably prefer to replace him. I don't mind giving him another chance but he NEEDS to adapt his style more. His inflexibility this year was so frustrating. The system was great last year but we need to switch up to a more offensive, puck possessing style. If Boucher is willing to do that then I'd be for keeping him, if not he needs to go.

And if we do replace him you know it's gonna be some cheap rookie because Melnyk won't be paying for three (including Crawford) experienced coaches. I wouldn't even be against giving Crawford a shot if he shows he's learned from his past coaching stints.

 

[topshelf15]

I've always liked Boucher but I'd probably prefer to replace him. I don't mind giving him another chance but he NEEDS to adapt his style more. His inflexibility this year was so frustrating. The system was great last year but we need to switch up to a more offensive, puck possessing style. If Boucher is willing to do that then I'd be for keeping him, if not he needs to go.

And if we do replace him you know it's gonna be some cheap rookie because Melnyk won't be paying for three (including Crawford) experienced coaches. I wouldn't even be against giving Crawford a shot if he shows he's learned from his past coaching stints.

I would like him to stay around ,just for his hockey knowledge...Maybe not as coach but as a manager,he does know the league pretty well

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Dorion is saying the right things. Coaching needs to be evaluated in the context of a plan to make the Senators viable in an NHL that is embracing speed and skill while improving player development allowing prospects the right opportunities and to allow them to develop to their strengths. Boucher has had too loud a voice , in the roster decisions and also how players are to be developed. Unfortunately there is no one to evaluate Dorion.

 

[DrakeAndJosh]

I would like him to stay around ,just for his hockey knowledge...Maybe not as coach but as a manager,he does know the league pretty well

That could be interesting. More qualified than Randy Lee lol