TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 | Part IX -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

[TP]

Dracarus!

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[Make]

I'm kind of warming up to the Mad Queen concept. I mean, going back to season 1, there was always the possibility that Dany's conquest was going to be bloody and devastating for the Kingdom. She did team up with the Dothraki who were notoriously violent and would have been a destructive force in Westeros, as they were in the attack against King's Landing too even in their small numbers. She flirted with the concept of "burning down your cities" and destroying all who oppose her (and Khal Drogo). She was all excited when Drogo swore to destroy her enemies. Admittedly, she had/has shown many good qualities too throughout the series that have kept her as a sympathethic figure, especially compared to the Lannister clique that ruled Westeros. But we don't hear someone like Jon making those similar vows to destroy everyone who opposes him. I guess we all wished for her to grow into a benevolent leader and for that side of her to triumph over the conqueror, but it wasn't to be.

When I do a rewatch, I'll definitely try to catch those hints and look at them in a different light. I admit I kind of shrugged those uncomfortable things aside early in the show, because the rulers in Westeros were even more reprehensible (especially Joffrey's short rule). It was easy to root for her as a possible avenger for everything bad the Lannisters did. She had so much potential and people around her had genuine faith in her as a leader.

That said, I still think the exact way they showed her "madness" was a little off. I still think the concept of killing civilians after the battle was won was a little heavy handed. Up until that point, she had shown restraint even during the battle by attacking only the ballistas and men at arms. The series has shown before that even using dragons as a military weapon against other armies can be shocking and unnerving for those who witness it (for example Tyrion during the attack against the Lannister forces in S7). I feel like there could have been a middle ground where she does ruthless stuff without going full genocidal the way she did.

About Bran's role: Daenarys trying to burn Jon would be an opportunity for Bran to warg into Drogon. Though I'm not even sure that's possible considering the distance between KL and Winterfell. At least it would make Bran useful for a change.

 

[NyQuil]

 

[NyQuil]

To be fair, there are two valid critical positions to take:

1. It's out of character for Daenerys to become the Mad Queen.

After going out of her way numerous times to mitigate the damage, she abandons that philosophy rather abruptly when victory is already won.

2. It's in character for Daenerys to become the Mad Queen but it wasn't executed particularly well.

There are all kinds of signs of her ruthlessness in her past actions and a number of recent triggers to push her over the edge.

I'm more partial to #2 to be honest, and again, like most of my criticisms of this season, the pacing and allotment of time available appears to be the culprit.

Finally, it's sometimes difficult to accept that life is pretty cheap in this particular world, with commoners cut down on a whim and bodies disfigured and put on display.

The disregard for the value of human life that was so prominent among the nobility in earlier seasons had tapered off somewhat so the return is a bit of a shock.

EDIT: By Mad Queen I'm referring to the destruction of the city post-victory. Her actual mental state I'll leave for mental health professionals to debate.

 

[Lshap]

I'm not nearly as put off by this season as others seem to be. Wasn't crazy about the frantically paced Night King episode, but the final 15 minutes was strong enough to rescue it. Otherwise, after watching seven seasons of character arcs being stocked like kindling, I'm okay with the speed everything is burning to the ground.

What is disappointing is how Jon and Danaerys have been reduced to a simplistic good-guy versus bad-guy. Despite the sound reasons why she lost it, it's hard to have any sympathy for a power-hungry woman who murdered thousands. Nor do I care all that much about her army of passionless soldiers or her dragon. In other words, everyone on Team-Dany has been clearly drawn as either crazy or a one-dimensional killing machine. She's now just a 'bad-guy'.

On the other hand, Team-Jon is made up of an idealistic man and his peace-loving group of likeable, loyal people, none of whom want to be a king or queen. I guess I'm supposed to cheer for them.

It looks like the final conflict that will end this show has been stripped of nuance, which is a shame if you're hoping for a an outcome that's a little more thoughtful.

 

[MadDevil]

Would it have been better for them to kill Rhaegal at the beginning of this battle? Maybe have that be the last thing that pushes her into going full Mad Queen?

 

[NyQuil]

In other words, everyone on Team-Dany has been clearly drawn as either crazy or a one-dimensional killing machine. She's now just a 'bad-guy'.

They also carefully killed all of her 'good guys and gals' aside from Tyrion and Jon Snow, whom she believes have betrayed her either through incompetence or through conflicting loyalties.

They turned Grey Worm into a merciless killing machine which means that he'll have to fight Jon Snow in single combat.

Funny how it was the death of the pacifistic Missandei that really pushed everything over the cliff.

Otherwise, after watching seven seasons of character arcs being stocked like kindling, I'm okay with the speed everything is burning to the ground.

Well, the destruction of the Great Sept was a dramatic event with perfect season-long lead-up that I thought was executed rather well.

Now we get one of those every episode or multiple times an episode and the gravitas is lost.

 

[Daisy Jane]

To be fair, there are two valid critical positions to take:

1. It's out of character for Daenerys to become the Mad Queen.

After going out of her way numerous times to mitigate the damage, she abandons that philosophy rather abruptly when victory is already won.

2. It's in character for Daenerys to become the Mad Queen but it wasn't executed particularly well.

There are all kinds of signs of her ruthlessness in her past actions and a number of recent triggers to push her over the edge.

I'm more partial to #2 to be honest, and again, like most of my criticisms of this season, the pacing and allotment of time available appears to be the culprit.

Finally, it's sometimes difficult to accept that life is pretty cheap in this particular world, with commoners cut down on a whim and bodies disfigured and put on display.

The disregard for the value of human life that was so prominent among the nobility in earlier seasons had tapered off somewhat so the return is a bit of a shock.

I guess it depends on how we say what "Mad Queen." is - ie:
Mad as in (going insane) or
Mad as in (pissed off).

I don't think she's crazy, i think what she did was a deliberate choice, one that she's made several times within the show. - though i think had we had another season (or more episodes etc), the breadcrumbs might be a bit more obvious. i will acknowledge it is a lot rushed this season - but the seeds were already planted and took root.

 

[JetsFan815]

The strategic value of burning King's Landing to the ground A Military Strategist on Why Daenerys’ Scorched-Earth Policy May Not Be So Mad After All

To consolidate her rule Dany should do the following:

Start by burning Tyrion for treason for freeing Jamie. Find a way to get rid of Jon Snow to strengthen her claim. Fly to Winterfell with the dragon and ask Sansa to bend the knee, if Sansa refuses burn Winterfell's castle to the ground but this time let the innocents leave the castle as a show of mercy. After that every Lord in Westeros will be lining up to bend the knee and the ones that don't, their common folk not wanting to be the next King's Landing will be in revolt against their liege Lord.

Make Dragonstone the new capital to rule from, it is an island, much more easily defendable and more difficult to launch sneak attacks against. Make Greyworm the hand of the queen, recall Dario Naharis back from Mereen with a fresh contingent of Second Sons. Make him the head of the queensguard. Bring more Dothraki over for support. Surround herself with the Unsullied and the Dothraki as those are the only two trustworthy groups for her.

Ask the Iron Bank of Braavos for a large amount of gold as punishment for them financing Cersei's war efforts. Use that money to gain favor of the smallfolks in Westeros and strengthen her army. If the Iron Bank refuses to pay up, then burn it to the ground to make an example.

Have every Maester working to understand what Qyburn did with the Mountain and find a way to mass produce that and have those Frankenstien monsters supplement her army. Use some more of the Iron Bank gold to have the best witches and warlocks from Assai and Qarth figure out a way to get more dragons or get Drogon to reproduce.

In the medium run after her rule in Westeros is strengthened, invade the city states in Essos who were sympathetic to the masters of Slavers Bay at any point in the recent past and "liberate" them.

 

[NyQuil]

I guess it depends on how we say what "Mad Queen." is - ie:
Mad as in (going insane) or
Mad as in (pissed off).

I don't think she's crazy, i think what she did was a deliberate choice, one that she's made several times within the show. - though i think had we had another season (or more episodes etc), the breadcrumbs might be a bit more obvious. i will acknowledge it is a lot rushed this season - but the seeds were already planted and took root.

Well, I'm just using the moniker.

There's been enough psychiatric debate in past threads regarding her state of mind. We really don't have enough information. They didn't give us any insight once she became a seemingly elemental force of destruction.

We do know she looks haggard, had isolated off herself from everyone and had refrained from eating or drinking (paranoia perhaps which ironically may have saved her life from one of Varys' birds poisoning her).

I think she was meant to be reminiscent of Aerys in that state but it was such a rapid sequence that the implication was missed.

Ultimately, I don't think it really matters.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Would it have been better for them to kill Rhaegal at the beginning of this battle? Maybe have that be the last thing that pushes her into going full Mad Queen?

No. I think you need Dany stewing on doing this from the get go. We are not supposed to be sympathetic for her in this instance.

 

[4thline]

I guess it depends on how we say what "Mad Queen." is - ie:
Mad as in (going insane) or
Mad as in (pissed off).

I don't think she's crazy, i think what she did was a deliberate choice, one that she's made several times within the show. - though i think had we had another season (or more episodes etc), the breadcrumbs might be a bit more obvious. i will acknowledge it is a lot rushed this season - but the seeds were already planted and took root.

I think there's a middle ground there. Mad in that she's a ruthless/violent person who is a little unstable but also in a very dark place right now, a trifecta that lead to a "Mad" decision

 

[Rabid Ranger]

The more I think about it the more I believe what we’re seeing in Dany is megalomania. Her treatment of the inhabitants of King’s Landing was almost Biblical. Wipe the wicked from the face of the earth in order to start anew.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

They also carefully killed all of her 'good guys and gals' aside from Tyrion and Jon Snow, whom she believes have betrayed her either through incompetence or through conflicting loyalties.

They turned Grey Worm into a merciless killing machine which means that he'll have to fight Jon Snow in single combat.

Funny how it was the death of the pacifistic Missandei that really pushed everything over the cliff.



Well, the destruction of the Great Sept was a dramatic event with perfect season-long lead-up that I thought was executed rather well.

Now we get one of those every episode or multiple times an episode and the gravitas is lost.

Maybe Dany is the Manchurian Candidate triggered by the word dracarys.....

 

[NyQuil]

The more I think about it the more I believe what we’re seeing in Dany is megalomania. Her treatment of the inhabitants of King’s Landing was almost Biblical. Wipe the wicked from the face of the earth in order to start anew.

Well, there was that line about how the people in her previous conquests rose up to support her while in Westeros she is distrusted as an invader despite her heritage.

I can understand her frustration. She sacrificed the bulk of her forces in the North and there isn't any particular desire to help her in return.

 

[Lshap]

They also carefully killed all of her 'good guys and gals' aside from Tyrion and Jon Snow, whom she believes have betrayed her either through incompetence or through conflicting loyalties.

They turned Grey Worm into a merciless killing machine which means that he'll have to fight Jon Snow in single combat.

Funny how it was the death of the pacifistic Missandei that really pushed everything over the cliff.

Exactly. Danaerys has been cleansed of moral guideposts. The honourable elements in her circle either died or have become just as savage as her. I doubt there's a single audience member still rooting for her to sit on the throne, which is a pretty astounding character-flip considering how beloved she was.

Well, the destruction of the Great Sept was a dramatic event with perfect season-long lead-up that I thought was executed rather well.

Now we get one of those every episode or multiple times an episode and the gravitas is lost.

Whittling this great show down to another Epic Battle!! between good & bad is a reminder of the demographic this show ultimately targets. I guess I should be grateful for the wonderful dialogue and stories for as long as they lasted. The finale isn't going to cater to the tastes of old guys like me.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The strategic value of burning King's Landing to the ground A Military Strategist on Why Daenerys’ Scorched-Earth Policy May Not Be So Mad After All

To consolidate her rule Dany should do the following:

Start by burning Tyrion for treason for freeing Jamie. Find a way to get rid of Jon Snow to strengthen her claim. Fly to Winterfell with the dragon and ask Sansa to bend the knee, if Sansa refuses burn Winterfell's castle to the ground but this time let the innocents leave the castle as a show of mercy. After that every Lord in Westeros will be lining up to bend the knee and the ones that don't, their common folk not wanting to be the next King's Landing will be in revolt against their liege Lord.

Make Dragonstone the new capital to rule from, it is an island, much more easily defendable and more difficult to launch sneak attacks against. Make Greyworm the hand of the queen, recall Dario Naharis back from Mereen with a fresh contingent of Second Sons. Make him the head of the queensguard. Bring more Dothraki over for support. Surround herself with the Unsullied and the Dothraki as those are the only two trustworthy groups for her.

Ask the Iron Bank of Braavos for a large amount of gold as punishment for them financing Cersei's war efforts. Use that money to gain favor of the smallfolks in Westeros and strengthen her army. If the Iron Bank refuses to pay up, then burn it to the ground to make an example.

Have every Maester working to understand what Qyburn did with the Mountain and find a way to mass produce that and have those Frankenstien monsters supplement her army. Use some more of the Iron Bank gold to have the best witches and warlocks from Assai and Qarth figure out a way to get more dragons or get Drogon to reproduce.

In the medium run after her rule in Westeros is strengthened, invade the city states in Essos who were sympathetic to the masters of Slavers Bay at any point in the recent past and "liberate" them.

Interesting read and I buy the political strategy that may have gone into her decision to burn the city.

She has a legitimacy problem along with a support problem.

 

[NyQuil]

Interesting read and I buy the political strategy that may have gone into her decision to burn the city.

She has a legitimacy problem along with a support problem.

I think there may be political benefits to her show of strength but I personally don't think it was part of some long-term strategy.

 

[Daisy Jane]

something i wish Varys asked before he died - was simply.
"why is it now just "Your claim."

at first it made sense because she's the last Targaryan and she wanted to get back everything that was stolen from her (family). got it. understand it. let's go.
But Jon does exist. so why not put her might behind Jon? if it's just about what her (family) lost - woila. Jon. and Jon not wanting the throne, could easily abdicate and be taadaaa. my aunt. (I mean i know it's simple, but i think it would also be good to show that this is no longer about a Targaryan ruling. it's about Dany having all power).

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Would it have been better for them to kill Rhaegal at the beginning of this battle? Maybe have that be the last thing that pushes her into going full Mad Queen?

While rushed there have been several issues that led Dany to the nuclear option:

• Lack of acceptance/adulation (really downright hostility) by Westeros
• Varying degrees of “betrayal” by her closest advisors
• Jon’s true identity as Aegon which undermines her claim to the throne
• Public execution of Missandei
• Death of Jorah
• Seeming rejection by Jon
• Lannister role in her family’s misery
• God complex

The writing was on the wall even if we got the cliffs notes version.

 

[NyQuil]

But Jon does exist. so why not put her might behind Jon? if it's just about what her (family) lost - woila. Jon. and Jon not wanting the throne, could easily abdicate and be taadaaa. my aunt. (I mean i know it's simple, but i think it would also be good to show that this is no longer about a Targaryan ruling. it's about Dany having all power).

I think the line that Tyrion had about "walking into a fire with three stones and emerging with three dragons" is a pretty poignant one.

How could you not believe in destiny when you've gone to such great lengths thus far and been successful.

Both Tyrion/Varys and Dany were also pretty clear about the fact that, no matter how many times Jon would say he doesn't want the throne, it wouldn't be enough to convince the other lords and people otherwise.

Jon is a popular MAN (sadly) and warrior of Westeros and the legitimate heir.

If Jon TRULY didn't want the throne, he wouldn't have told Sansa and Arya. It was that simple.

Instead, he put his own guilt about keeping secrets above his Queen and potential peace. A very Eddard moment of stupidity.

What's interesting is that Bran surely knew what the consequences of Jon's actions were. Anyone expecting him to ride in to save the day (in warg form or otherwise) I think will be sorely disappointed.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I think there may be political benefits to her show of strength but I personally don't think it was part of some long-term strategy.

Again, this wasn’t fleshed out as well as it could have been but she had a Plan A and a Plan B. Plan A was diplomacy based on the expectation the people of Westeros would back her. That’s not really in the cards so she went with Plan B which is fear through force. I don’t think her destruction of King’s Landing makes her a tyrant but her actions in the aftermath might. Will be interesting to see what happens next.

 

[NyQuil]

Again, this wasn’t fleshed out as well as it could have been but she had a Plan A and a Plan B. Plan A was diplomacy based on the expectation the people of Westeros would back her. That’s not really in the cards so she went with Plan B which is fear through force. I don’t think her destruction of King’s Landing makes her a tyrant but her actions in the aftermath might. Will be interesting to see what happens next.

That's true - she was pretty adamant about Plan B and it was only Tyrion's desperate pleading that got Plan A.

Then Tyrion's exchange with Cersei got Missandei's head lopped off. Jon's last chance to avert Plan B by showing affection did not materialize.

The clip I posted above of Olenna and Dany's conversation is rather prophetic.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Exactly. Danaerys has been cleansed of moral guideposts. The honourable elements in her circle either died or have become just as savage as her. I doubt there's a single audience member still rooting for her to sit on the throne, which is a pretty astounding character-flip considering how beloved she was.

Whittling this great show down to another Epic Battle!! between good & bad is a reminder of the demographic this show ultimately targets. I guess I should be grateful for the wonderful dialogue and stories for as long as they lasted. The finale isn't going to cater to the tastes of old guys like me.

Tyrion was acting as a moral compass when he tried to convince her not to burn the innocents if she heard the bells. She just tired of listening to him because the writers f***ed up his character as well.

Apparently D&D “believe” she made an impulsive decision to burn the city down when she saw the Red Keep. Obviously they wrote it so what they “believe” should be fact IMHO.

It made more sense that she had already planned to burn the city well in advance, but that would have some logic to it instead of her turning heel at the last second.

Like many are saying, I’m just going to go with it... whatever.

 

[NyQuil]

It made more sense that she had already planned to burn the city well in advance, but that would have some logic to it instead of her turning heel at the last second.

Well, technically she turned away from that plan to Tyrion's plan, and then back to her original plan.