GDT: Game "79": Coyotes @ Stars - 5:30PM - FSAZ+

[Bonsai Tree]

I agree with rt. Lots of us make asinine comments which create a swath of mayhem. I certainly can't toss the first stone at DeAngelo because I am as guilty as him. Let's give hime the opportunity to mature and moderate his comments.

As for his play, I think that he will be responsible in his own end with more experience. I expect to see his turnovers diminish next year.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Let's pretend he didn't say mean things to people when he's mad. Still want to paint his play with that broad brush? He likes Donald Trump and he has a dirty mouth. He's also basically a made to order cast member for that Jersey Shore tv show from some years back. None of that means anything at all to his effectiveness as a hockey player. I think people are struggling to separate the man from the player.

I don't know the kid personally so when I offer opinions on his attitude and personality, it's strictly as a hockey player. If his Twitter account - which I haven't read - didn't exist, he'd still be a meathead ON THE ICE, where it matters. A meathead hockey player doesn't learn from his mistakes - he wallows in them because it's the only way he's ever played the game and if it was good enough to get him to the NHL, why change it?

His effectiveness as a hockey player is exactly what's in question here. Do his many lapses in judgment in many areas of his game get erased by the one thing he excels at? At this point, in my opinion, not on your effin' life. DeAngelo right now is playing the game the same way Conor Garland did in camp, except he's also doing it with an extra layer of granite-brained stupidity that resists the coaching staff's efforts to break him of his bad habits.

If that's an asinine assessment, fine. There's plenty of that around here. But I've seen many, many athletes who are a-holes who still thrive because they have excellent instincts in their chosen field of play. To me, DeAngelo's hockey instincts everywhere outside of outlet passing and the forward rush are incredibly suspect, and that's why, if the team needs to make a move now and need to part with a valuable piece in order to pull it off, DeAngelo would be the first asset I'd think of.

 

[rt]

He seems to work hard, gives a great effort, and seems to really care. He's a rookie. He's going to improve. I can't shake the suspicion that your unwillingness to give him a bit of a pass on dumb mistakes, despite the fact that he's a first year player, has something to do with his reputation. If his mouth hadn't got him into trouble, I have to think he'd have a bit of a longer leash around here. He's a rookie and is immensely gifted offensively. Usually that buys guys a little time. What's different? I have to suspect it's because people just don't like the kid.

 

[cobra427]

I would like to aim higher but these are the type of players that could be in our sites. I don't think Braun would be much of an upgrade for us but the other two I really like, but probably not available. Nothing wrong with reaching for the moon, it's what you have to give back is my concern.



These type of players are probably not available, and if they are, they will cost us the farm, and the is something I would not do at this point. We might get lucky with the expansion draft and get someone.

A 1RHD will be available for a price. This is what in my opinion, drove the wedge between Tip and DM around the potential acquisition of Hamilton. We have not had a 1RHD since our WCF run. Lack of a solid defense is our biggest problem. Without a 1RHD, it forces every other RH defensemen to play out of position and limits OEL's effectiveness. Because of the expansion draft and the cap, I think now is the time to make a deal for a 1RHD we covet. It will be expensive, I agree, but we need to do it.

 

[Jakey53]

I agree with rt. Lots of us make asinine comments which create a swath of mayhem. I certainly can't toss the first stone at DeAngelo because I am as guilty as him. Let's give hime the opportunity to mature and moderate his comments.

As for his play, I think that he will be responsible in his own end with more experience. I expect to see his turnovers diminish next year.

He seems to work hard, gives a great effort, and seems to really care. He's a rookie. He's going to improve. I can't shake the suspicion that your unwillingness to give him a bit of a pass on dumb mistakes, despite the fact that he's a first year player, has something to do with his reputation. If his mouth hadn't got him into trouble, I have to think he'd have a bit of a longer leash around here. He's a rookie and is immensely gifted offensively. Usually that buys guys a little time. What's different? I have to suspect it's because people just don't like the kid.

Agreed

 

[rt]

Any 1RDs to be had for a 1st overall draft pick? Nolan Patrick is a Winnipeg kid. How bad do the Jets want him? I'd like to add Trouba.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I can't shake the suspicion that your unwillingness to give him a bit of a pass on dumb mistakes, despite the fact that he's a first year player, has something to do with his reputation.

Suspect what you want. I learned long ago that even if I spell out my opinion and thought process in an interminable word salad, people will still misattribute my motivations. It's one of the joys of message forum participation - a real value add and excellent ROI!

 

[Jakey53]

A 1RHD will be available for a price. This is what in my opinion, drove the wedge between Tip and DM around the potential acquisition of Hamilton. We have not had a 1RHD since our WCF run. Lack of a solid defense is our biggest problem. Without a 1RHD, it forces every other RH defensemen to play out of position and limits OEL's effectiveness. Because of the expansion draft and the cap, I think now is the time to make a deal for a 1RHD we covet. It will be expensive, I agree, but we need to do it.

Every player is available at a price, and that is the problem. We can't afford to give up the farm at this time. IF we land a true #1RD the price will start at Domi or DVO ++++. Mind you, like you and I have stated, the expansion draft could shake loose a few good D, and I don't think it will be as expensive as it usually is. A really good second pairing is what I'm expecting to get.

 

[cobra427]

Any 1RDs to be had for a 1st overall draft pick? Nolan Patrick is a Winnipeg kid. How bad do the Jets want him? I'd like to add Trouba.

I think it would cost more than the 1st overall or second overall to land Trouba. I would gladly add to our pick to get Trouba. I would do our pick plus one of the following: Murphy/Duclair/Reider/Deangelo, but that might not be enough to get it done and Trouba might not be available anyway.

 

[rt]

Suspect what you want. I learned long ago that even if I spell out my opinion and thought process in an interminable word salad, people will still misattribute my motivations. It's one of the joys of message forum participation - a real value add and excellent ROI!

I get it. But you have to understand my position also. I can't really take everything at face value on a message board, either. That said:

You're stance is that his rookie mistakes are so much worse than the typical rookie mistakes that you worry it indicates a larger problem, and at the very least, should make him a tradeable asset in a deal for an upgrade. That's fair. I just don't agree. And I don't need to accuse you of any sort of bias. We just don't agree on the severity of the mistakes or what they might mean. Which is fine.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I think it would cost more than the 1st overall or second overall to land Trouba. I would gladly add to our pick to get Trouba. I would do our pick plus one of the following: Murphy/Duclair/Reider/Deangelo, but that might not be enough to get it done and Trouba might not be available anyway.

I think Winnipeg would listen if the offer were 1OA + DeAngelo with maybe another asset in play.

The big question is whether Trouba is a worthy enough risk. We'd have to convince him that we had the money to resign him and that doing so would be in his best interests. I think the latter would be obvious because he'd be a clear 1RHD on the Coyotes with no real pretenders to his position; the former, however, would be a challenge. The risk is slightly diminished because I think he'd still be RFA at the end of his current contract IIRC, but still a risk.

You're stance is that his rookie mistakes are so much worse than the typical rookie mistakes that you worry it indicates a larger problem, and at the very least, should make him a tradeable asset in a deal for an upgrade. That's fair. I just don't agree. And I don't need to accuse you of any sort of bias. We just don't agree on the severity of the mistakes or what they might mean. Which is fine.

I'd qualify that to say that my stance is that his rookie mistakes are going to take longer to rectify because he's shown a resistance either to instruction or to change, and because - from what I've seen, anyway - at the moment he lacks the necessary instincts and impulse control to make those changes. I mentioned Conor Garland before - another player whose game is offensively electric but markedly immature. That kind of game is very one-dimensional, almost distractingly so. That does not presuppose that the game cannot be changed - it's only the duration of that process that makes me believe DeAngelo could be the piece in motion in any blockbusters the Coyotes are considering.

My opinion as a fan is not the same thing as the opinion of the franchise, so my blathering might be as substantial as a fart in the wind. But a project player like DeAngelo requires a franchise with patience and stability to give him the time to mature into a top-level asset. For me, DeAngelo's peak is farther down the road than most of the rest of our prospect pool. Do the Coyotes have enough time and patience to stick with him?

 

[_Del_]

To me, DeAngelo's hockey instincts everywhere outside of outlet passing and the forward rush are incredibly suspect, and that's why, if the team needs to make a move now and need to part with a valuable piece in order to pull it off, DeAngelo would be the first asset I'd think of.

Here's why I think there's more to your opinion than his play: you tried to "soften" your stance by saying you'd make him available as a valuable piece.

Just taking your evaluation at face value, the player you are describing isn't a "valuable piece." He also has baggage on and off ice. We already picked him up for a second round pick less than a year ago. What makes you think you could flip him as a valuable piece now based on his showing which you think has revealed him as having "extra layer of granite-brained stupidity that resists the coaching staff's efforts to break him of his bad habits"?

That's why I think your evaluation is slanted. He isn't a particularly valuable piece, in my opinion. Especially if your evaluation is correct. So saying, "he'd be the first valuable piece I'd move to upgrade" doesn't mean anything. Why would anyone value DeAngelo high enough to make it worth trading him if your evaluation is correct? Do they not have tape? Do they not have the internet and know about the baggage?

Kid has been traded away multiple times. People know why. We'd get nothing for him. A third maybe. That's what Schultz got, and he didn't have a reputation as a clown. But we already have DeAngelo, and I would still draft him in the third round if available because he's serviceable already and has upside.

I didn't like the trade. I said at the time that I didn't like it. I could see the rationale they used to make it, but didn't agree with it. Having said that, he's here. He's not worth anything to anyone else, and he has upside. His play was better than I expected at the NHL level, and he's still under 40 career games. They also haven't been contiguous. He's on the Tippett Tough Love-Train that sees people demoted and scratched regsrdless of play as a hardship for young players to prove that they're able to overcome.

Will DeAngelo improve? Is he a ****** in the room? I have no idea. But I know that the chance he improves is higher than whatever we'd get back if we dumped him.

 

[XX]

Suspect what you want. I learned long ago that even if I spell out my opinion and thought process in an interminable word salad, people will still misattribute my motivations. It's one of the joys of message forum participation - a real value add and excellent ROI!

I mean, it's pretty clear your impressions of DeAngelo are warped. He hasn't done anything on the ice that's dumb this year that Yandle didn't also do a dozen times at the same point in their respective careers.

 

[_Del_]

Yandle STILL passes to the opposing team in the slot. It doesn't make Yandle a bad player (and again, it doesn't mean DeAngelo will be the same or better than Yandle).

I have had irrational dislikes of all sorts of players over the years. I'm not trying to pick on you, Feck.

 

[Jakey53]

I mean, it's pretty clear your impressions of DeAngelo are warped. He hasn't done anything on the ice that's dumb this year that Yandle didn't also do a dozen times at the same point in their respective careers.

Correct. Lets give the kid some time. We are the perfect spot for him.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Here's why I think there's more to your opinion than his play: you tried to "soften" your stance by saying you'd make him available as a valuable piece.

Just taking your evaluation at face value, the player you are describing isn't a "valuable piece." He also has baggage on and off ice. We already picked him up for a second round pick less than a year ago. What makes you think you could flip him as a valuable piece now based on his showing which you think has revealed him as having "extra layer of granite-brained stupidity that resists the coaching staff's efforts to break him of his bad habits"?

I knew this would come up, and I'll tell you why - because in every sport, in every type of athletic endeavor, there will always be a franchise who will see one team's "damaged goods" and believe that all that player needs is a change of scenery in order for the damage to be fixed.

This tendency is even more pronounced in professional hockey because, in addition to everything involved in operating a pro sports entity, there is an additional layer of "culture" overlaying everything, from the market to the coaching staff to the actual nation where a player plays.

The fact that *I* have the opinion of DeAngelo that I have doesn't mean it's universally shared (obviously, considering the blowback I've gotten from F40 over it!). Well, doesn't it stand to reason that the same would be true among the GMs of the National Hockey League? No matter what the divide is between you and me in terms of what kind of player DeAngelo is, we both agree that there is no question about his offensive ability, which is next-level. His possession of that ability will be enough to convince SOMEONE out there to covet him, no matter what other considerations are in play.

In the specific case of a trade for Jacob Trouba, the reason I mention DeAngelo as part of a package is that Winnipeg's problem with Trouba has been his role on the team - how he envisions it versus how the franchise does. Trouba's role here would be much clearer and less assailable than in the 'Peg, IMO. But Winnipeg would still need a RHD asset to fill in the vacancy. To me, the Coyotes need DeAngelo to be far more well-rounded a player than he is - I'm not sure Winnipeg needs that as badly as we do, though. They might be able to afford to be patient with a young one-dimensional RHD with upside who they could plug in situationally, which would make DeAngelo attractive.

This is all spitballing, anyway. Whatever's going to happen will happen without my opinion mattering one whit.

I mean, it's pretty clear your impressions of DeAngelo are warped. He hasn't done anything on the ice that's dumb this year that Yandle didn't also do a dozen times at the same point in their respective careers.

And I didn't mind Yandle being traded, either, so at least I'm consistent.

 

[_Del_]

The fact that *I* have the opinion of DeAngelo that I have doesn't mean it's universally shared*

I think he's better than you do, and I still don't think anyone would trade anything of value for him. Too many question marks. We got him for a second -- this year. If someone valued him at more than a second rounder, he'd have gone there already. He didn't appreciate in a few months under Tippett on the second worst team in the league.

Let it play out and see what you've got.

 

[Kaizen]

I knew this would come up, and I'll tell you why - because in every sport, in every type of athletic endeavor, there will always be a franchise who will see one team's "damaged goods" and believe that all that player needs is a change of scenery in order for the damage to be fixed.

This tendency is even more pronounced in professional hockey because, in addition to everything involved in operating a pro sports entity, there is an additional layer of "culture" overlaying everything, from the market to the coaching staff to the actual nation where a player plays.

The fact that *I* have the opinion of DeAngelo that I have doesn't mean it's universally shared (obviously, considering the blowback I've gotten from F40 over it!). Well, doesn't it stand to reason that the same would be true among the GMs of the National Hockey League? No matter what the divide is between you and me in terms of what kind of player DeAngelo is, we both agree that there is no question about his offensive ability, which is next-level. His possession of that ability will be enough to convince SOMEONE out there to covet him, no matter what other considerations are in play.

In the specific case of a trade for Jacob Trouba, the reason I mention DeAngelo as part of a package is that Winnipeg's problem with Trouba has been his role on the team - how he envisions it versus how the franchise does. Trouba's role here would be much clearer and less assailable than in the 'Peg, IMO. But Winnipeg would still need a RHD asset to fill in the vacancy. To me, the Coyotes need DeAngelo to be far more well-rounded a player than he is - I'm not sure Winnipeg needs that as badly as we do, though. They might be able to afford to be patient with a young one-dimensional RHD with upside who they could plug in situationally, which would make DeAngelo attractive.

This is all spitballing, anyway. Whatever's going to happen will happen without my opinion mattering one whit.



And I didn't mind Yandle being traded, either, so at least I'm consistent.

I'm not so sure they would be looking for a RHD back - between Buff and Myers there's not a bunch on TOI left and they can fill those minutes without too much trouble.

 

[rt]

What evidence is there that DeAngelo has been resistant to coaching at the NHL level?

 

[XX]

And I didn't mind Yandle being traded, either, so at least I'm consistent.

Your dislike of DeAngelo is clearly shaded by his off ice antics of the past, if I wasn't being clear enough. That's why you're catching heat. Nobody would disagree that he's a work in progress. But to say that there's a mental block there with him when there's been no evidence of that is silly. I've been very pleasantly surprised by the kid that was supposedly a turd for Tampa and in junior.

I've been way, way more disappointed with some of the veterans than I have DeAngelo, who at least cares.