GDT: Game 3: Oilers @ Coyotes // 15 Oct 14 // 7:30pm // FSA

[_Del_]

Maybe the young guys just aren't good enough yet to beat out even our crappy vets?
Yes, mistakes by anyone, even 10 minutes a game could and would lead to a collapse.

I'm not sure what metric you are measuring the vets and young players with. The young players beat the incumbents everywhich way during preseason, and the only answer seems to be, "Yeah, but that's just preseason". Did you watch any of the preseason games? I admit I only saw 3. They had a better record in the preseason when they were playing than not. They literally outplayed them head-to-head. They outplayed them individually. The three top individual scorers from the preseason have not played a regular season game for the Coyotes.
What's the point of saying there are open roster spots in camp if the answer to the young guys is, "sure, you out played them, but that's only preseason"?! What other way are we to measure their performance other than preseason? They can't prove themselves in the regular season because they haven't been given an opportunity. They apparently won't get that opportunity because they haven't proven themselves in the regular season...

Are Chipchura or Klink any less likely to overhandle the puck or turn it over than Hodgman, Rieder or Lessio? Did they stop making mistakes defensively?

Geezus people, the youth team literally beat the veterans in a head-to-head game.

That's just preseason.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

Fans watching preseason is a pretty irrelevant observation

Except if the observation of the fans agrees with your observation, right?

 

[IPreferPi]

I wish there was another version of HF Boards for sane people....or at least those of us who understand we're not dealing with a full deck.

This is the Internet. Sanity got defenestrated a long time ago.

I like to think our board covers has a better composition of Pollyannas, Debbie Downers, and everything between those extremes compared to other HF fanbases. There's room for everyone you know. Show a little tolerance.

 

[YandlesMother]

Show a little tolerance.

This is a monumental task on the internet.

But the truth is always somewhere in the gray. The team isn't as good as some of us halffullers think, and Tippett doesn't have a vendetta against forwards under 22 as some of the half empties might think.

 

[Plub]

Fans watching preseason is a pretty irrelevant observation (sorry, I know we all think we are experts), and preseason is irrelevant when it comes to looking at production numbers. So Tip is playing vets even though he knows he has a better chance of winning with Rookies? That makes zero sense. If the young guys earned a spot, they would be here, its that simple. DM has a younger roster this year and I am sure he was hoping Lessio/Domi/Reider would break through. They are all close but it is a process, and it takes time.

As soon as DM forces Tip to play young guys, we are done as a team. It would send so many wrong messages, and we would win very few games, fewer than whatever we win this year.

Actually it isn't irrelevant. It doesn't take a genius to see if one player is outplaying another.

Oh my, now preseason numbers are irrelevant as well? So what exactly is relevant? Why have a preseason at all? Did you watch any of the games? Did you see how livid DT was after the veterans lost to the youth team? Seemed to matter to him quite a bit.

That is exactly it. DT would rather play lesser players that he knows than better players that he does not know about. It makes it easier for him. He doesn't need to coach veterans as much as he would rookies.

You're really grasping at straws now. You are essentially saying nothing matters that is before the regular season.

 

[Kaizen]

A few younger guys clearly earned a spot on the roster and were still sent back down.

The pre-season is hopefuls playing against hopefuls. Those on the cusp play with a few vets getting their timing down.


An example from this franchise's past. Hannu Jarvenpaa. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=2512
He had a huge preseason during his first kick at the can (a four goal game rings a bell but I'm not sure tbh) but he didn't really turn out to be much more than a borderline NHL'er.


Until the last game or two of the preseason, when the actual compete level is approach a regular season game, stats generated must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[YandlesMother]

You are essentially saying nothing matters that is before the regular season.

In the NFL, statistically, it doesn't.
http://jse.sagepub.com/content/13/4/451.abstract

Here is my caveat where i say the NHL could be different and I'm not employed in the professional hockey world I only play one on the internet.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The direction this thread is going is reminding me of why I took a few years off from here.

Not because people are expressing opinions, but because people are attacking people for expressing the wrong opinions.

Can't we have one place on the Internet that doesn't devolve into this kind of BS? Disagreement with mutual respect, instead of pumping up one's own tires about how stupid other people are?

Fundamentally, everyone on this board wants the same thing - for the hockey team we love to succeed. We all have different thoughts on how that will happen, but another thing we have in common is that absolutely none of those thoughts are going to affect how it will happen. So could we please try to keep things civil?

 

[cobra427]

Actually it isn't irrelevant. It doesn't take a genius to see if one player is outplaying another.

Oh my, now preseason numbers are irrelevant as well? So what exactly is relevant? Why have a preseason at all? Did you watch any of the games? Did you see how livid DT was after the veterans lost to the youth team? Seemed to matter to him quite a bit.

That is exactly it. DT would rather play lesser players that he knows than better players that he does not know about. It makes it easier for him. He doesn't need to coach veterans as much as he would rookies.

You're really grasping at straws now. You are essentially saying nothing matters that is before the regular season.

This how preseason works. The vets that know they have jobs, OEL/Yandle/Doan, etc, all the vets I mentioned in a previous post, are basically getting into game shape and trying to develop some chemistry, but they are not going all out. This is likely why Tip was a little pissed at their effort against the rookies.

The rookies are trying to take jobs from Klink/Chip/Crombeen/Moss etc. The competition is between rookies that want jobs and the vets that want to keep them. It is not a point contest. It is a back checking, playing without the puck, making the right decisions with the puck contest. It is really not about making plays, but about not making mistakes and being sound in all 3 zones. It is all the little things that only coach's notice.

I totally agree that Domi/Lessio/Reider/Samulson have more skill than guys on our current roster. But, mistakes at the NHL level kill you more than the added skill helps you and that might be the biggest difference between the NHL and the AHL. This why Tip generally plays vets, and I totally agree with him. The young guys will get there chance this year.

Yes, I have seen almost all the games.

 

[_Del_]

So could we please try to keep things civil?

Maybe my avatar makes me seem angry?

It's just a message board. I'd be happy to break bread with any of you.
I've been posting here 11 years (longer than that, because I was "Del" without underscores on the old boards til I forgot my password), and I've never hurt anyone... Yet...
I have always been in favor of established talent over kids. This year we don't have established talent any better than the kids. GMDM did a 180 on the direction he said he was taking the team in May (actually more like 360 after his previous reversal). Unless there are severe financial restraints on this roster, there is no excuse for the current line up. I don't know to what degree the blame falls on the shoulders of ownership, Maloney, or Tipp. If this season is a wash, then someone should be held accountable.
I do know Tipp can squeeze blood out of a stone. He's a top five coach in the NHL, but I also think he would prefer relying on marginal vets to "developing" a rookie who hasn't met whatever his internal metric is for "cooked". I'm not sure the franchise flourishes long-term with that at play. This was a complaint in Dallas as well, and the rumours were that management eventually forced Tippett to play Ericksson.
You can say that sends a bad message, but I think it also sends a bad message to say there are 3-4 forward spots open for young players if they outplay the vets at camp, and then demote them all after that happens and try to explain it away as "well, it was only preseason. The vets weren't trying their hardest". Especially when "vets weren't trying their hardest" was pretty much the synopsis for our last miserable season.
The roster was set before a single preseason game was played. You could literally lead the NHL in preseason points, play both special teams, and get lauded for your responsible positional play and still get demoted (Hodgman).

 

[rt]

Am I just jaded? I thought this was civil.

haha

 

[Alberta Yote]

Am I just jaded? I thought this was civil.

haha

hey, I disagree. Keep that crap to yourself.

 

[rt]

I think this is just a bridge year.

They wanted to tweak the chemistry on the big club and see if some guys can rebound. Sort of see how this mix plays out. If they decide to call on the young guys they have that option available. Meanwhile, we've got a bunch of contracts expiring anyway. So this is a bit of a "show me" year for many of the team's vets, in addition to the youngsters on the farm.

It would've been an expensive decision to demote one-way deals, so I guess they probably figured they'd give the bubble guys with one-ways a final shot at proving they belong before they go pulling the trigger on a vets down, youngsters up maneuver that's going to burst the budget.

If you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt, you can assume management is being patient and making the best of a basement budget.

The true test will be how management reacts when this fails. It's jumping the gun to call for their heads on account of deciding to go through with this experiment. The appropriate time for criticism is when it fails. Even then, I think it will be their reaction to the inevitable failure that will be the true test.

 

[rt]

hey, I disagree. Keep that crap to yourself.

He LIVES!!!

If I'd have known you were lurking AY, I wouldn't have subjected you to so much whining and griping over the last ninety days. Haha.

Apologies.

You darn dirty sonnofa such and such!

 

[Alberta Yote]

He LIVES!!!

If I'd have known you were lurking AY, I wouldn't have subjected you to so much whining and griping over the last ninety days. Haha.

Apologies.

You darn dirty sonnofa such and such!

I've been around a long time so am pretty hardened to the whining and griping thing. It entertains me more than watching the team does sometimes.

but go talent challenged veteran Coyotes!

 

[XX]

Not because people are expressing opinions, but because people are attacking people for expressing the wrong opinions.

I see frustration.

When someone takes a simple position, like "hey, we could use a little more rotating in of youth", it's met with an absurd straw man of "you're crazy" "omfg you want us to be the Oilers!" or "you hate life/hockey/tippett" etc... The original discussion gets buried under an avalanche of people chasing this absurd angle or trying to refute it. The exasperation over this continual cycle is understandable.

It's jumping the gun to call for their heads on account of deciding to go through with this experiment. The appropriate time for criticism is when it fails. Even then, I think it will be their reaction to the inevitable failure that will be the true test.

I think you can critique the past, and what has lead the team to this point. Past behavior is also the best predictor of future behavior. What irks me is that they (they being management) seemed to have become self-aware of how listless the team was towards the end of last season, yet did nothing about it. There were a lot of pained expressions and talk of major change, yet none materialize.

If they mothball everything of value for a year, make a few choice trades, and end up with a franchise player at the draft, they'll rightfully look like geniuses. If they still have jobs.

 

[CC96]

I agree with the sentiment of at least letting 1 or 2 rookies into the forward group this year, because like someone said earlier, what are we gonna do? Ice 7 "overcooked" rookie players on opening night next year?

Is playing all of Klink, Chip and Moss, every night, really that important to the long-term benefit of the organization?

If we say, swapped even 1 of those guys for a Lessio or Rieder to get them NHL experience, I doubt it would hurt the team at all (and if we swapped one of them for Moss, it would probably make us a better team). These kids have to start getting NHL experience at some point.

 

[Grimes]

I agree with the sentiment of at least letting 1 or 2 rookies into the forward group this year, because like someone said earlier, what are we gonna do? Ice 7 "overcooked" rookie players on opening night next year?

Is playing all of Klink, Chip and Moss, every night, really that important to the long-term benefit of the organization?

If we say, swapped even 1 of those guys for a Lessio or Rieder to get them NHL experience, I doubt it would hurt the team at all (and if we swapped one of them for Moss, it would probably make us a better team). These kids have to start getting NHL experience at some point.

I truly think this will happen no later than 20 games in. I have a feeling Moss is on the hot seat right now. I believe the rookies are in the AHL right now just to get a little hungrier and to tweak some aspects of their game. They have only played one game so far. Our offense will dry up and Reider/Lessio/Samuelson will be in for stints. Hanzal will go down and one of those guys or Hodgman will come up. It's inevitable.

 

[CC96]

I truly think this will happen no later than 20 games in. I have a feeling Moss is on the hot seat right now. I believe the rookies are in the AHL right now just to get a little hungrier and to tweak some aspects of their game. They have only played one game so far. Our offense will dry up and Reider/Lessio/Samuelson will be in for stints. Hanzal will go down and one of those guys or Hodgman will come up. It's inevitable.

I hope so. Maybe once Barroway takes over at the end of the month, we can actually have the cash flexibility to afford sending down a struggling vet and bringing up a kid, since our budget is essentially maxed right now. We don't need much, just like an extra 600kay in the budget, haha.

I don't think Moss is on the hot seat though. I mean absolutely should be, but as we all know, after Tippett bizarrely called him our best right wing last year (?), and insisted that DM re-sign him (?!), he apparently sees something in that idiot we don't. I just don't understand it.

 

[Grimes]

I don't think Moss is on the hot seat though. I mean absolutely should be, but as we all know, after Tippett bizarrely called him our best right wing last year (?), and insisted that DM re-sign him (?!), he apparently sees something in that idiot we don't. I just don't understand it.

Completely left this out accidentally:
Sarah McLellan @azc_mclellan · 4h 4 hours ago
A few changes at #Coyotes practice today. Chipchura with Gagner and Korpikoski. Moss with McMillan and Vitale. Summers back with Murphy.

It's a step in the right direction for Moss. May or may not be the hot seat, but he isn't playing with Gags.

 

[_Del_]

It's a step in the right direction for Moss...

.., and a step in the wrong direction for Chip.

 

[rt]

It's a step in the right direction for Moss.

.., and a step in the wrong direction for Chip.

Absolutely. Yikes.

The nutty part is that Chipchura looked really good on the McVictory Line (yup, that's what it's called, just deal with it), and now they've ripped him from it and tossed him on the Gags and Korpi line just because Moss stunk it up there. So rather than just scratch Moss, we risk the Gags and Korpi line not improving at all (more of a sure shot than a risk) and the McVictory line potentially being less effective due to the Moss demotion.

 

[_Del_]

Absolutely. Yikes.

The nutty part is that Chipchura looked really good on the McVictory Line (yup, that's what it's called, just deal with it), and now they've ripped him from it and tossed him on the Gags and Korpi line just because Moss stunk it up there. So rather than just scratch Moss, we risk the Gags and Korpi line not improving at all (more of a sure shot than a risk) and the McVictory line potentially being less effective due to the Moss demotion.

Especially with all the talk about "roles". This is where a guy like Hodgman might be handy, but hey, I'm just a guy on the internet.

 

[Muppet]

Chipchura with Gagner? Okay, now I really feel sorry for Gags. He must be wondering how the hell he's going to produce anything when he's originally had to deal with Moss, and now Chip.

 

[rt]

Ideally you'd want...

Doan-Vermette-Boeds
XXXXXX-Hanzal-Erat
XXXXX-Gagner-XXXX
McMillan-Vitale-Korpi
BJC

Fill in the blanks with legit forwards, not guys like Klikhammer, Moss, and Chipchura playing WAAAAAY above their heads. But, that's not a line-up for a super cash-strapped team such as ourselves.

Sigh.