GDT: Game #10 Sharks @ Stars - Army of Darkness Edition - 12:00 PM PDT CSN-CA KFOX

weastern bias

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Jones hasn't been that great either, he has some noticeable deficiencies

However neither goalie's play excuses the other's, Stalock was bad today through the first 40 and on the game-winner
 

Led Zappa

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Oh it's certainly a double standard by certain posters on this board. The game after stalock got torched by nyi, jones had just as bad of a game the next day against nyr and no one was *****ing about it, and crying we need a new starter. Oh well.

Jones is the future of this franchise or not. He's young and on his way up. He's going to be given rope. Stalock is at the end of his. Simple as that.
 

SJSharksfan39

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Oh it's certainly a double standard by certain posters on this board. The game after stalock got torched by nyi, jones had just as bad of a game the next day against nyr and no one was *****ing about it, and crying we need a new starter. Oh well.

I think Jones had the benefit of a strong start. Honestly since Couture went down, Jones has been slightly decent but average by his starter standards too. A lot of that is the team in front of him, which is why I don't think you hear about his bad play. I think that's why he kinda gets a free pass.
 

Dicdonya

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Jones hasn't been that great either, he has some noticeable deficiencies

However neither goalie's play excuses the other's, Stalock was bad today through the first 40 and on the game-winner

Can you explain how he was playing bad the first 40? The first three goals were not the fault of stalock, but almost exclusively burns fault. I'm seriously trying to figure out how anyone who actually watched the game can blame stalock for those goals. The game winner, sure it trickled past him, you would hope and expect your goalie to stop that, but it wasn't like he just whiffed on some weak ass wrister from the point with no screen.
 

CrypTic

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Can you explain how he was playing bad the first 40? The first three goals were not the fault of stalock, but almost exclusively burns fault. I'm seriously trying to figure out how anyone who actually watched the game can blame stalock for those goals. The game winner, sure it trickled past him, you would hope and expect your goalie to stop that, but it wasn't like he just whiffed on some weak ass wrister from the point with no screen.

I blame Stalock for the third goal. He was on all fours. It was partly on Burns for icing the puck (if that was one of the times he iced it) but he was knocked down on the play. Should have been interference but it wasn't called. There wasn't much Burns could do.

I can be critical of both Burns's and Stalock's play. There's been plenty of criticism of Burns ITT, as well as criticism of other players (e.g., Marleau, Thornton, Pavs, Brown). I don't think most ppl are saying the loss was all on Stalock but he was part of the problem.
 

Dicdonya

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I blame Stalock for the third goal. He was on all fours. It was partly on Burns for icing the puck (if that was one of the times he iced it) but he was knocked down on the play. Should have been interference but it wasn't called. There wasn't much Burns could do.

I can be critical of both Burns's and Stalock's play. There's been plenty of criticism of Burns ITT, as well as criticism of other players (e.g., Marleau, Thornton, Pavs, Brown). I don't think most ppl are saying the loss was all on Stalock but he was part of the problem.

Thank you for the honest response. I would counter with saying that stalock on all fours meant nothing on that goal, every goalie on a wrap around, takes the bottom of the net away, and then time allowing tries to hug the post. Fiddler made a perfect shot, and roofed the puck from 3 feet away. Show me a goalie who consistently stops that shot.

This is sort of my point. Sure stalock didn't steal any goals, it wasn't a good game, but the expectations for what a backup goaltender should stop, are way out of proportion.

I agree completely with your second paragraph. This was a team loss, not a game that stalock lost with horrible softies. Which is why it's so annoying to see people actually pretend, or argue seriously, that they want to waste time, effort, and resources on a new backup goalie. It's absurd.
 

CrypTic

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Thank you for the honest response. I would counter with saying that stalock on all fours meant nothing on that goal, every goalie on a wrap around, takes the bottom of the net away, and then time allowing tries to hug the post. Fiddler made a perfect shot, and roofed the puck from 3 feet away. Show me a goalie who consistently stops that shot.

This is sort of my point. Sure stalock didn't steal any goals, it wasn't a good game, but the expectations for what a backup goaltender should stop, are way out of proportion.

I agree completely with your second paragraph. This was a team loss, not a game that stalock lost with horrible softies. Which is why it's so annoying to see people actually pretend, or argue seriously, that they want to waste time, effort, and resources on a new backup goalie. It's absurd.

I'd have more faith in Jones stopping that shot. I think most ppl here would. Stalock was stuck in a bad position bc he decided to cover the pass instead of the shooter and then couldn't react. The way he did it (down on all fours) left the whole top of the net open. He couldn't get over and hug the post, reach up and grab the puck effectively, etc. Fiddler didn't need a perfect shot on that goal. Stalock played that really badly IMO.

I agree with you that it's early to be calling for a new backup. Stalock has played two games so far this season. He's been bad but so have many ppl on the team in the two games he's played. I think part of it is that ppl are frustrated with the team. Another part is that Stalock hasn't been good this whole calendar year. Again, that's partly on the team bc the team hasn't been good.

Stalock's 2015 sv%/GAA by game: .833/1, .903/3, .714/2, .853/5, .870/3, .865/5, 1.000/0, .857/2, .889/2 , .939/2, .950/1, .800/5. .914/3 (and he was .857/3 on 12/30/14). He played decently at the end but by then the Sharks were out of the playoffs anyway.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/staloal01/gamelog/2015/

Niemi was very inconsistent over that period as well but had 20 games with a 9.00 or over out of 34 games plus a shutout on 12/31 (vs 5/13 or 14 for Stalock) and ppl were still very critical of him. I know that it's harder for many goalies to be a backup bc you don't get regular starts and the team last year was bad but I think part of the criticism of Stalock is bc he hasn't consistently played well for a while now.

IMO part of the reason that ppl criticize Stalock more than Jones (they do criticize Jones) is that Jones is the shiny new toy (that isn't quite as shiny as in the beginning), part of it is that Jones has been playing better (on average) than Stalock, part of it is that ppl want to give Jones a chance bc they haven't seen enough of him yet but part of it is that IMO we need our backup to be better than Stalock has been.

ETA: I just checked the stats for this season and, so far, Jones's worst game has been better than either of Stalock's games. Stalock: .848/5, .833/4; Jones's worst game (NYR): .857/4. Jones's second game against the Kings was also bad: .862/4. But his other games have been good (NSH) to excellent (ANA, WSH, NJD, CAR). Stats aren't everything and Stalock had to play at our worst (NYI) and against Dallas, whereas Jones's best games were against Carolina or when the Sharks were playing well. He didn't do well when the Sharks had all their injuries either. But he did better than Stalock.
 
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Mattb124

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Fiddler made a perfect shot, and roofed the puck from 3 feet away. Show me a goalie who consistently stops that shot.

Watch Stalock on that goal - he got small. He did not hug the post and he did not square to the shot. Simply put, he did not play that well. The defense screwed the pooch (in part due to Burns getting interfered with), but Stalock totally misplayed that shot. I am not saying that it wasn't a great shot or it wouldn't have gone in had he played it better, but the fact that he played it how he did is endemic of the problem.
 

vilpertti

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I just don't understand why not put Jones in against Dallas who are considerably more potent than Colorado. Stalock was bad. Burns had a couple miscues but the traditional wisdom would've been to put the main guy against the better opponent.
 

Alwalys

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The reason Jones still gets "slack" to the extent that he gets any is that he is currently the 3rd best starting goalie in the league by sv%, and 2nd best by GAA. Stalock is dead last in the league among ALL goalies by both measures. Dead. Last.

Regarding the goals today, I give jones a much better chance of stopping the demers goal and the fiddler goal. A big goalie doesn't have to freak out quite as much on a shorthanded rush, and jones probably stops fiddler based on size alone.
 
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SJSharksfan39

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The reason Jones still gets "slack" to the extent that he gets any is that he is currently the 3rd best starting goalie in the league by sv%, and 2nd best by GAA. Stalock is dead last in the league among ALL goalies by both measures. Dead. Last.

Regarding the goals today, I give jones a much better chance of stopping the demers goal and the fiddler goal. A big goalie doesn't have to freak out quite as much on a shorthanded rush, and jones probably stops fiddler based on size alone.

But he's only played 2 freaking games. Small Sample Size, much?
 

CrypTic

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But he's only played 2 freaking games. Small Sample Size, much?

Except it's not two games if you look at last season as well. As I said above, Stalock has not played well in 2015. So the sample size is 15 games (16 if you count 12/31/14). That's not a huge sample size but it's comparable to a full season for many back-up goalies. If ppl are looking only at the two games this season that Stalock's played, I agree with you but many ppl are looking at his play last season as well. It's been sub-par, even for a back-up.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Except it's not two games if you look at last season as well. As I said above, Stalock has not played well in 2015. So the sample size is 15 games (16 if you count 12/31/14). That's not a huge sample size but it's comparable to a full season for many back-up goalies. If ppl are looking only at the two games this season that Stalock's played, I agree with you but many ppl are looking at his play last season as well. It's been sub-par, even for a back-up.

And if you look at the context of each of those games, the teams in front of him have hung him out to dry consistently in each of his starts. He's had bad goals like any other goalie has but the people railing on him have unrealistic expectations for him. He's not a starter in this league and he's the kind of goalie that needs repetition to get going and he's not going to get it in the backup role. He got lucky in 2014 because he had a decent team playing in front of him. Last year, the team sucked regardless of who was in net. This year, two games with the two of the worst defensive efforts among the ten happening. He's made some mistakes in those starts as well but he's not the reason the team lost those games and Jones being in net wouldn't have changed the results any.
 

SJSharksfan39

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Except it's not two games if you look at last season as well. As I said above, Stalock has not played well in 2015. So the sample size is 15 games (16 if you count 12/31/14). That's not a huge sample size but it's comparable to a full season for many back-up goalies. If ppl are looking only at the two games this season that Stalock's played, I agree with you but many ppl are looking at his play last season as well. It's been sub-par, even for a back-up.

I thought we were talking about this season? :help:
 

CrypTic

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And if you look at the context of each of those games, the teams in front of him have hung him out to dry consistently in each of his starts. He's had bad goals like any other goalie has but the people railing on him have unrealistic expectations for him. He's not a starter in this league and he's the kind of goalie that needs repetition to get going and he's not going to get it in the backup role. He got lucky in 2014 because he had a decent team playing in front of him. Last year, the team sucked regardless of who was in net. This year, two games with the two of the worst defensive efforts among the ten happening. He's made some mistakes in those starts as well but he's not the reason the team lost those games and Jones being in net wouldn't have changed the results any.

I did account for the context of the two games he played this season. See the ETA in my longer post. If you mean the context of last season's games, please refresh my memory bc I don't remember the context for those. I did consider how bad the team was last year. That's why I compared his stats to Niemi's. If it was mostly bc of the team, the stats shouldn't be that different.

If the bolded is true, maybe Stalock shouldn't be a backup. Like LedZappa said, maybe he'll be a great starter somewhere but he's not a good back-up. That's his role in SJ and he's not doing it well. The bolded is more of an argument for why we should look for another back-up than it is for why we should cut him slack.

I disagree with your statement that Jones being in net wouldn't have changed the results. I agree WRT the NYI game but not the Dallas game. I'm not sure that the team would have won with Jones in the net but I think there's a good chance they could have at least gotten the loser point and would have had a better chance to pull out a win.

I agree that he's not the only reason the team lost and that it's unfair to put most of the blame on his shoulders. Both the games he lost were team failures, as were the games that Jones lost.

I thought we were talking about this season? :help:

I don't think most ppl who are criticizing Stalock are doing it solely on the basis of his play this season. That would be silly.
 

stator

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Stalock's 0-2 win record this season is probably too small of a sample size at this point. His SV% is what's telling being last at .842% of all goalies who've made an appear this season.

0-2 with a SV% around .900 just means he lost some close ones, or some bad luck. South of .850% means his play just down right sucked.

Stalock is a UFA after this, and one would believe he'd be putting up better numbers. If he doesn't start to, he'll likely reach the end of his NHL career, and be back as a AHL'er like Leighton in being the backup to the NHL backup goalie.

I might have played Martin on the 3rd period when it was tied to ensure one point if I was DeBoer. That would have depended on Martin's feedback of taking the next day's game as well.
 

Alwalys

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The sample size for both goalies is small but that's all we have. The difference is stark, they are literally at opposite ends of the goalie stats. To put it another way Jones has earned the benefit of the doubt thus far, stalock has been the opposite so far.
 

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