Post-Game Talk: Galchenyuk - Desharnais: greatest 1-2 punch in the league?

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

...It doesn't mean the Habs should have just given him a top role, but at least start by giving him PP opportunities.

Therrien seems to have a hard time balancing developing and competing.

 

[Kriss E]

I didn't say that they are always in agreement but the gm HAVE the final word.

I wouldn't go that far. The GM and Coach discuss their roster, but the coach doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want. It may lead to a more serious discussion later and possibly a firing, but technically speaking, the coach is the one that submits the line up before the game, not the gm.

EDIT: Actually, it's manager or coach.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26283

That being said, I still don't think the GM tells him who to play outside of exceptions.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

You can't see Galchenyuk's dominance because Pacioretty spoon fed him those passes
A true talent knows where to position themselves to accept these passes and bury them. Galchenyuk got more goals in 1 game with Patches then Desharnais had all season!!!! Give your head a shake buddy, they're both great players but Galchenyuk is something special, sick sick talent...

I won't give my head a shake, buddy, for the simple reason that I'm not going to make a statue of him or proclaim him the next big thing before he proves he can be actually dominant in multiple aspects of the game. I'll keep saying what I saw; he wasn't dominant the other night. He didn't do bad and had a fine game, but there's no way any of those goals happen without Pacioretty. These were awfully nice plays, and on 2 of his goals, the guy had nobody between him and the goal line to prevent the puck from crossing it. He did his job, period. He also had a nice goal on a breakaway, which we already know is one of his strengths. But from there to say "he positioned himself greatly to accept those passes" is a stretch. We're talking about NHLers there. I see those goals as not really different from the ones Weise scored a while ago in his streak when put with Pacioretty. These were goals he HAD to put in, and he did it. But to proclaim him the next big thing because he could get a perfect pass is a bit much for me.

Then again, many people will read this as if I was bitter that Desharnais was put on the 3rd line. In fact, I agreed with the move at the time. I think DD-Pacioretty were on an impass, and that they needed to look at the game differently to keep having success. So yeah. I'm also happy that Galchenyuk gets a long look at C. I think it was just about time, and I think the timing was perfect. And for that record, he might end up being that 70-80 points C everyone is hoping for.

But knowing the fanbase, judging from his progress in the last 2 seasons, and watching him on a nightly basis, I have HUGE reserves on whether or not he can be much more than a slightly better Kyle Turris, who has insane talent but won't get much more than his 60-65 points a season. Which is still very good, but in no way what I would call an insane talent or something really special.

I'm just not gonna buy into the hype because others do so. I think the sooner he's ready for full-time duties at C, and the sooner he gets to the point of being a potential menace nightly, we'll be a better team. I know his ceiling is above Desharnais', or any Habs C on the depth chart for that matter. The thing is, I don't agree with many people that he's that great and has no flaws. I see him becoming a fine C, but not a dominant one like people here are expecting. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised and won't complain. And for the record, I've been wrong before and still will be in the future. But there's something in his game that suggests me he's not going to be as special as some here see him becoming. i.e. "Franchise C". I see him as something between Turris and Spezza, probably slightly closer to Turris than Spezza, in the long run.

 

[Nynja*]

How about applying the same with Eller playing as a third line center, who's now, according to your revisionnist analysis, playing less competitive minutes, Y'know third liners and stuff, and DD some very hard minutes (not sheltered) vs top defenders ? Isn't that argument being used by the most seasoned forum vets, to convince us that Eller would be producing AT LEAST as much as DD is / was, given they'd have the same role ?

Because apparently, reading these boards the last few months, you'd think DD was sheltered and that Eller played very tough minutes. Or isn't the other way around ? Thruth is, Eller had a 40 games slump last year playing against third liners, while DD's one was playing against top defenders.

Thruth is, DD never had sheltered minutes, only, a lot of favorable faceoffs positions. Eller is producing just enough for a regular third line spot but if DD produces more in a secondary scoring role, he's a notch over Eller in my book. Oh, and Plekanec's stellar defensive ability and Malhotra's ability to play tough defensive minutes makes Eller expendable. And he'd fetch us a good return. If Eller is that good why isn't he putting up more points ?

Eller also had Bourque and another different winger every game. When he had Chucky and Gallagher on his wing for a good 12 game span, he was producing, they were all producing. Then MT had to get DD going, so he breaks that line up. He sticks Bourque with Eller, and another different winger every game. Bourque is crap, and its hard to develop chemistry with that other winger when its a new person every game.

Look at Eller since Bourque got traded...

 

[Nynja*]

EDIT: Actually, it's manager or coach.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26283

That being said, I still don't think the GM tells him who to play outside of exceptions.

Its possible thats just the person whos allowed to give the ref the starting lineup, and the coach may delegate the handing of the starting lineup to the GM because he's talking to the team or going over last minute strategies.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

I'm also going to say that much;

Whether it's Desharnais or Eller that gets traded, I don't care, even if it's end up being Desharnais, because while I haven't been in awe as much as some people here with Galchenyuk's performance (which I consider as good, and not dominant), I think his performance still warrants him staying at C for the time being, and probably in the long run. I also think we'd be better served trading one of our other C's with another/others asset(s) to get a good top-6 winger from the market, and preferably for the long term, so we can have lines with players playing their natural positions once and for all.

I think it's time Bergevin finally makes a "core-building move", but I'm not sure which one I'd trade based on many different factors, including trade value, actual value to the team, as I think Eller is incredibly overrated here.

 

[jaffy27]

I won't give my head a shake, buddy, for the simple reason that I'm not going to make a statue of him or proclaim him the next big thing before he proves he can be actually dominant in multiple aspects of the game. I'll keep saying what I saw; he wasn't dominant the other night. He didn't do bad and had a fine game, but there's no way any of those goals happen without Pacioretty. These were awfully nice plays, and on 2 of his goals, the guy had nobody between him and the goal line to prevent the puck from crossing it. He did his job, period. He also had a nice goal on a breakaway, which we already know is one of his strengths. But from there to say "he positioned himself greatly to accept those passes" is a stretch. We're talking about NHLers there. I see those goals as not really different from the ones Weise scored a while ago in his streak when put with Pacioretty. These were goals he HAD to put in, and he did it. But to proclaim him the next big thing because he could get a perfect pass is a bit much for me.

Then again, many people will read this as if I was bitter that Desharnais was put on the 3rd line. In fact, I agreed with the move at the time. I think DD-Pacioretty were on an impass, and that they needed to look at the game differently to keep having success. So yeah. I'm also happy that Galchenyuk gets a long look at C. I think it was just about time, and I think the timing was perfect. And for that record, he might end up being that 70-80 points C everyone is hoping for.

But knowing the fanbase, judging from his progress in the last 2 seasons, and watching him on a nightly basis, I have HUGE reserves on whether or not he can be much more than a slightly better Kyle Turris, who has insane talent but won't get much more than his 60-65 points a season. Which is still very good, but in no way what I would call an insane talent or something really special.

I'm just not gonna buy into the hype because others do so. I think the sooner he's ready for full-time duties at C, and the sooner he gets to the point of being a potential menace nightly, we'll be a better team. I know his ceiling is above Desharnais', or any Habs C on the depth chart for that matter. The thing is, I don't agree with many people that he's that great and has no flaws. I see him becoming a fine C, but not a dominant one like people here are expecting. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised and won't complain. And for the record, I've been wrong before and still will be in the future. But there's something in his game that suggests me he's not going to be as special as some here see him becoming. i.e. "Franchise C". I see him as something between Turris and Spezza, probably slightly closer to Turris than Spezza, in the long run.

Didn't want to come on to strong there so if you feel attacked I apologize......in respect to the Pacioretty passes, yes they were nice, very nice, but those goals don't happen if Galchenyuk is not there, because if it's anybody else, I don't think anyone is there to bury them. Desharnais went 52 games between goals, (even strength) I'm convinced in these 52 games, Pacioretty fed him at least 70 passes and he buried "ZERO". Galchenyuk was at almost 2.0 points per game with Sarnia with like 28 goals in 33games, the guy is a machine, you will pleasantly surprised when Galchenyuk is top ten in scoring in by the time he hits 25, and you're gonna say to yourself "man, that Jaffy27 was right"

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Didn't want to come on to strong there so if you feel attacked I apologize......in respect to the Pacioretty passes, yes they were nice, very nice, but those goals don't happen if Galchenyuk is not there, because if it's anybody else, I don't think anyone is there to bury them. Desharnais went 52 games between goals, (even strength) I'm convinced in these 52 games, Pacioretty fed him at least 70 passes and he buried "ZERO". Galchenyuk was at almost 2.0 points per game with Sarnia with like 28 goals in 33games, the guy is a machine, you will pleasantly surprised when Galchenyuk is top ten in scoring in by the time he hits 25, and you're gonna say to yourself "man, that Jaffy27 was right"

If you're right, I'll do cartwheels. I'm a Habs fan and can't complain if everything turns out for the best.

 

[jaffy27]

If you're right, I'll do cartwheels. I'm a Habs fan and can't complain if everything turns out for the best.

Sounds good....now lets go have a Brew

 

[Chacal667]

I wouldn't go that far. The GM and Coach discuss their roster, but the coach doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want. It may lead to a more serious discussion later and possibly a firing, but technically speaking, the coach is the one that submits the line up before the game, not the gm.

EDIT: Actually, it's manager or coach.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26283

That being said, I still don't think the GM tells him who to play outside of exceptions.

I agree, and I just don't think the GM will trade players just to make sure that his coach play the players that he want on the ice, it sound absurd to me.

 

[Habsawce]

I agree, and I just don't think the GM will trade players just to make sure that his coach play the players that he want on the ice, it sound absurd to me.

But when the Canadiens finally realized “Good Rene” was never going to make more appearances than “Passive Rene,” they demoted Bourque—who hadn’t scored in 13 games this season—to the AHL. Then they flipped veteran winger Travis Moen to the Dallas Stars for defenceman Sergei Gonchar, creating a little more room up front. Both moves signal more opportunity for Sekac to make the always-tricky adjustment from Europe to the world’s best league and its smaller ice.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sekac-offers-intrigue-on-habs-third-line/

Bergevin's decision to waive Bourque has forced Sekac into the line-up after sitting out for seven games. In doing that, the Canadiens have scored nine goals in three games, in fact with Sekac in the line-up the team has averaged 3.1 goals a game as opposed the the 1.6 they average without him.

Well played, Bergevin. Well played.

http://www.habsaddict.com/2014/11/habs-bergevin-giving-fans-what-they-want.html

First, it's hilarious how many Canadiens fans are griping about this already. They were begging to get Travis Moen out so Michael Bournival could get a full-time spot, and in 48 hours, Marc Bergevin has acquiesced, moving Moen for an expiring contract, and waiving Bourque to make room for Jiri Sekac.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=63877


There are plenty of people who don't think it's absurd to move players to make room for a player. If Marc and Michel were on the same page about Jiri he would have already been playing and these trades would have been primarily about cap space next season. Yes, they're about cap space but because Michel refused to play the kid they had an urgency involved.

 

[Chacal667]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sekac-offers-intrigue-on-habs-third-line/



http://www.habsaddict.com/2014/11/habs-bergevin-giving-fans-what-they-want.html



http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=63877


There are plenty of people who don't think it's absurd to move players to make room for a player. If Marc and Michel were on the same page about Jiri he would have already been playing and these trades would have been primarily about cap space next season. Yes, they're about cap space but because Michel refused to play the kid they had an urgency involved.

I don't think you understand, do you watch french tv sometime ?

Bergevin told the media in french, I don't know if he did in english but he told them that he discussed with Bourque before the season start he said that he didn't want to trade him because he wanted to see him score 20 goals with the habs and not with another team, he asked him to play like he did in the playoff, Bergevin wanted to give Bourque a chance.

Yes sometime the management trade a few veteran to make space for younger players but it is not because MT didn't want to play them, again if it was the case MB only had to ask to MT, he didn't had to trade Bourque to force it.

 

[Bob b smith]

I don't think you understand, do you watch french tv sometime ?

Bergevin told the media in french, I don't know if he did in english but he told them that he discussed with Bourque before the season start he said that he didn't want to trade him because he wanted to see him score 20 goals with the habs and not with another team, he asked him to play like he did in the playoff, Bergevin wanted to give Bourque a chance.

Yes sometime the management trade a few veteran to make space for younger players but it is not because MT didn't want to play them, again if it was the case MB only had to ask to MT, he didn't had to trade Bourque to force it.

You're aware that GMs sometimes disagree with coaches on who to play and it causes friction? It's not a question of only ask and the coach will agree. Just this season there were acerbic disagreements leaked in the public about who should be in the lineups between Holland/Babcock and Murray/McLean. A wants B to do something and B refuses... The interactions between GMs and coaches aren't all about rainbows, skittles and good feelings.

 

[Chacal667]

You're aware that GMs sometimes disagree with coaches on who to play and it causes friction? It's not a question of only ask and the coach will agree. Just this season there were acerbic disagreements leaked in the public about who should be in the lineups between Holland/Babcock and Murray/McLean. A wants B to do something and B refuses... The interactions between GMs and coaches aren't all about rainbows, skittles and good feelings.

I agree but at the end, the gm have the last word.

I don't think MB wanted to risk his job for Rene Bourque.

 

[Habsawce]

I agree but at the end, the gm have the last word.

I don't think MB wanted to risk his job for Rene Bourque.

The coach has the final say on line ups. The GM has final say on personnel. I'm really not sure what's so hard about this to understand.

 

[Bob b smith]

I agree but at the end, the gm have the last word.

I don't think MB wanted to risk his job for Rene Bourque.

Not for who to play on any given day. It's the coach. Murray wanted a different lineup. McLean constantly told him to get lost. Final lineup on the ice was McLean's decision. Ultimately Murray fired McLean. For that and other reasons.

The reverse is true. Babcock doesn't want to play a guy in his lineup and wants Holland to send him a specific player from Grand Rapids. Holland kept telling him no. Feud became public. I guess because it's Babcock it's OK.

 

[Chacal667]

The coach has the final say on line ups. The GM has final say on personnel. I'm really not sure what's so hard about this to understand.

the coach can set the lineup that he want but if the gm disagree ultimatly the coach in question can get fired that's why I keep saying that the gm have the last word.

If your boss ask you to do something, you can't say no all the time without any retaliation.

 

[Milhouse40]

Makes me think about the movie Moneyball.

GM hired new players and the coach refuses to play them or to play them at the position the GM wanted to. Coach didn't make any move even if the GM asked him to.....GM trade a couple of players to force him to use the players he hired.

 

[Bob b smith]

the coach can set the lineup that he want but if the gm disagree ultimatly the coach in question can get fired that's why I keep saying that the gm have the last word.

If your boss ask you to do something, you can't say no all the time without any retaliation.

Holland and Babcock are probably two of the greatest hockey minds today. Guess what. They sometimes disagree on what's best for the club when it comes to lineups... The fact Babcock's name is on the Stanley Cup won't always convince Holland that he's making the right lineup decision.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Didn't even mention him

We all saw what you were doing.

 

[Chacal667]

Holland and Babcock are probably two of the greatest hockey minds today. Guess what. They sometimes disagree on what's best for the club when it comes to lineups... The fact Babcock's name is on the Stanley Cup won't always convince Holland that he's making the right lineup decision.

I didn't say otherwise , yes sometime they can disagree, but you will not convince me in that case.

 

[habitue*]

BOTH MT & MB wanted to give all chances to Bourque to repeat his Playoffs performance. I've heard MB clearly stating it in a radio interview. The experiment lasted 20 games. I am sure both MB and MT decided about his usage and finally about his departure.

The only clear feud between MB and MT was about Briere last season.

 

[Alexdaman]

fellow hfboarder on tv right now

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

fellow hfboarder on tv right now

Brian Savage?

 

[Bob b smith]

You guys can believe in Santa Claus, it's your right. The only information I have about how it went down is from Eliotte Friedman, which is one of the most connected hockey journalists.

1. Eliotte Friedman 30 thoughts

"Bergevin made two roster changes (Travis Moen and Rene Bourque) almost immediately after word was he wanted to force Jiri Sekac into the lineup. This happens from time-to-time. Most GMs will tell you the coach deserves the right to set the individual game roster. A manager’s power is in creating that roster. (I’ve written before that one GM explained how, a few years ago, he traded two players so his coach would play younger guys. That duo is still together.) Besides, getting Sekac into a regular spot is working for everyone."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts/

2. Elliotte Friedman was on Sportsnet 960 Monday morning.

“What I think is going on here Ryan is that Marc Bergevin, I think, wants Sekac and Bournival to play and Michel Therrien wasn’t using them. And I’d heard last week that don’t be surprised if Bergevin moves somebody to force Therrien’s hand. Now, I didn’t think it would be waivers, but I do think that’s what’s going on here. That he’s saying, ‘Okay, I’m taking Bourque out of the way so that there’s no choice but to play Sekac.’ And I think that’s exactly what we’re seeing here.”

http://www.nicholsonhockey.com/worthreading/2014/11/10/friedman-bergevin-forcing-therriens-hand