From 3rd to Dvorak - The Magnificent Lose-Lose-Lose Trade Tree

[Hoochi Papa]

Things we know:

1. Kotkaniemi was a bad pick for 3rd overall
2. ...but we could've extended him for peanuts. Too bad Canes made an offer-sheet and we lost him for very low 1st
3. Which was then wasted on Dvorak

With every step the situation has some way gone worse and what we have is an extraordinary trade tree of failures that started from 3rd overall. Who knows what happens with Dvorak, will we go even further down the spiral?

Click to read more...

 

[Archijerej]

2. ...but we could've extended him for peanuts. Too bad Canes made an offer-sheet and we lost him for very low 1st

We know that? Everything we know points to the opposite.

When you base your argument on a false premise, it's just a waste of everybody's time.

 

[Hoochi Papa]

We know that? Everything we know points to the opposite.

When you base your argument on a false premise, it's just a waste of everybody's time.

Yes. He would've been extended for cheap but Bergevin f'd everything up with his lame ass OS.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I don't think KK was a bad pick. I don't think his story is yet written. IMO, hindsight will eventually show him to be a very talented player who took too long to reach his potential. He was a raw prospect who was drafted by a team without skills/skating coaches, or a development plan to speak of.

The contract management is, of course, bad, and a direct consequence of his development mismanagement. If we had taken our time with his development, he'd likely be doing a bang up job for us at C and still on an ELC.

 

[26Mats]

Things we know:

1. Kotkaniemi was a bad pick for 3rd overall
2. ...but we could've extended him for peanuts. Too bad Canes made an offer-sheet and we lost him for very low 1st
3. Which was then wasted on Dvorak

With every step the situation has some way gone worse and what we have is an extraordinary trade tree of failures that started from 3rd overall. Who knows what happens with Dvorak, will we go even further down the spiral?

All your points may be right. But we'll only know about KK as an NHLer when he's 25...

If KK turns out to have been a bad pick, I would put it more on Timmins and MB's obsession with need and other aspects over talent. They both loved Brady Tkachuk to death. But opted to prioritize need and went for questionable talent. Imo, that was ultimately what led to their downfall.

 

[Habs Icing]

I don't think KK was a bad pick. I don't think his story is yet written. IMO, hindsight will eventually show him to be a very talented player who took too long to reach his potential. He was a raw prospect who was drafted by a team without skills/skating coaches, or a development plan to speak of.

The contract management is, of course, bad, and a direct consequence of his development mismanagement. If we had taken our time with his development, he'd likely be doing a bang up job for us at C and still on an ELC.

Well at least your post, unlike many other KK posts, attributes some responsibility to KK. Let's see what sort of game he brings for the rest of the season. If he continues on his 35ish point season, chances are he'll be looking for another team to play for next season.

 

[26Mats]

Well at least your post, unlike many other KK posts, attributes some responsibility to KK. Let's see what sort of game he brings for the rest of the season. If he continues on his 35ish point season, chances are he'll be looking for another team to play for next season.

I'd take him over Dvorak. At least he has speed and some potential upside to go with his 35 point-ish pace. Cut the losses: trade Dvorak for scraps, and sign Kk for a deal closer to his actual worth.

At any rate, I think Carolina will continue with the KK experiment for at least one more season.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Well at least your post, unlike many other KK posts, attributes some responsibility to KK. Let's see what sort of game he brings for the rest of the season. If he continues on his 35ish point season, chances are he'll be looking for another team to play for next season.

Of course KK bears responsibility for his path. But I don't think he's a bad kid, or has a bad attitude, or did anything particularly wrong. I think he did pretty well with opportunities that, ultimately, he just wasn't ready for. Fact is that the more time he spent with us, he didn't improve, and he arguably got worse. We got essentially nothing out of a really talented player, and that's a serious problem.

 

[Habs Icing]

Of course KK bears responsibility for his path. But I don't think he's a bad kid, or has a bad attitude, or did anything particularly wrong. I think he did pretty well with opportunities that, ultimately, he just wasn't ready for. Fact is that the more time he spent with us, he didn't improve, and he arguably got worse. We got essentially nothing out of a really talented player, and that's a serious problem.

I feel the same way about KK except I don't think he was a really talented player. There are always players whose talents are greatly overrated and KK just happened to be one of them.

And yes I agree the Habs made a terrible mistake promoting him to the NHL when they did.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I feel the same way about KK except I don't think he was a really talented player. There are always players whose talents are greatly overrated and KK just happened to be one of them.

And yes I agree the Habs made a terrible mistake promoting him to the NHL when they did.

I know you've never been a fan of his.

But I don't think it's even arguable that he's extremely talented. Almost everyone else in that draft would have done worse in his situation, and extremely talented players have done a lot worse their first year in the NHL. You don't get 34 points falling on your ass 12 minutes per night without something to compensate for it. You just don't.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Yes. He would've been extended for cheap but Bergevin f'd everything up with his lame ass OS.

Curious how his agent told Bergevin he wasn’t signing with a Habs after he was scratched in the finals. So your entire premise doesn’t readily work. Besides, do we need another KK thread??

 

[DAChampion]

There were several posters on this forum who were hyping Dvorak this summer as being like Danault but with better offense.

In hindsight -- WTF?

 

[DAChampion]

Curious how his agent told Bergevin he wasn’t signing with a Habs after he was scratched in the finals. So your entire premise doesn’t readily work. Besides, do we need another KK thread??

What was the Habs record in the playoffs with Kotkaniemi sitting on the bench?

Was it 0 wins 3 losses?

 

[Hoochi Papa]

Curious how his agent told Bergevin he wasn’t signing with a Habs after he was scratched in the finals. So your entire premise doesn’t readily work. Besides, do we need another KK thread??

Surely that was decisive moment and nothing could be done afterwards. Without Canes' offer-sheet KK would've gone back to Liiga even if it ends his career in NHL?

 

[Hoochi Papa]

There were several posters on this forum who were hyping Dvorak this summer as being like Danault but with better offense.

In hindsight -- WTF?

Hockeydb scouting meets wishful thinking. For some reason people assume that if someone is overpaid 40 point producer, he has to be loaded with all sorts of defense first intangibles.

 

[Habs13]

The most important parts of this story were left out by the original poster.

1. Draft Kotkaniemi
2. Team had no plan in place to properly develop prospects
3. Prior failures at drafting and developing meant that Kotkaniemi was rushed to the NHL
4. Piss-poor coaching stalled any development Kotkaniemi still had, when he should have been in the minors being tutored on what it takes to make the NHL.
5. Miss-handled his entire tenure as a Montreal Canadien.
6. Benched in favor of washed-up has-beens by the worst coach in the league during a play-off run.
7. Despite being one of the best players once he did get to play, is low-balled on contract talks by a terrible GM.
8. Due to said GM's past bullshit, receives an offer sheet as revenge from Carolina.
9. Leaves; because nobody is going to turn down that kind of money to stay with a franchise that has put your entire playing career and future at risk.

Was Kotkaniemi a bad choice at 3rd overall? We will never know, because he was badly managed from the get-go. Had he been properly brought along, he might be a far better player than he currently is. He has the tools. He is yet another kid ruined by the Bergevin entourage and the loser mentality it festered for a full decade here in Montreal. Kotkaniemi would probably be played as a 4th line center behind Perrault if he had stayed and the roster not have been hit with injuries.

The Dvorak debacle is a whole different storyline in the Bergevin universe. Panic mode activated. Following the embarrassment and backlash from the Kotkaniemi incidents, Bergevin panics and trades assets for a mediocre player that has never had above-average stats in his NHL career, hoping to hit a homerun, and as always he fell flat on his stupid, smug face.

So. Who is REALLY to blame here?

 

[Mandala]

Maybe we should have signed the offer sheet after all...

 

[iamtalbot]

I'd take him over Dvorak. At least he has speed and some potential upside to go with his 35 point-ish pace. Cut the losses: trade Dvorak for scraps, and sign Kk for a deal closer to his actual worth.

At any rate, I think Carolina will continue with the KK experiment for at least one more season.

I don't think they can afford him for a one year deal as that will be the increase on his current 6+ deal.

They said they wanted to lock him up long term however slotting in on their 4th I don't see him taking a long or medium term deal over another 6 mill one year for what he's worth

So definitely can see Carolina walking away but doubt he would come back here as a free agent

 

[Treb]

I'll just quote the previous KK thread closing post:

I see no point in keeping this thread up now that the season has started. Use the out of town thread if you want to talk about players on other teams:

Out of Town Thread: Part 14

Out of Town Thread: Part 16