Fowler & vats or fowler & lindholm

[Hagged]

And yes, more often than not he was put on the ice in areas where he would succeed (starting the majority of his shifts in the offensive zone, much more than other players), but linemate-wise he wasn't given the best opportunities. This is where there's give-and-take, and it's fair to not expect his on-ice effect to drop dramatically if he's with Fowler, x, Getzlaf, and Perry in offensive situations.

I think that a part of the reason for Vatanen's high offensive zone start was that he was one of the best options for an offensively favourable match-up. For example, Sbisa's QoC is only 0.3 apart from that of Vatanen, but QoT is 0.6 apart as Vatanen had the lowest QoT. While Sbisa saw more even ZS%, I think a lot of it is due to the fact that Vatanen had a bigger positive impact on an offensive zone face-off.

Sbisa had GF% of 45.5 compared to Vatanen's 61% on 5on5 with similar QoC and QoT. I think that even with Vatanen's high OZS% of 53.7 Sbisa wouldn't have been able to make as big of an impact on GF%.

 

[Sojourn]

I think that a part of the reason for Vatanen's high offensive zone start was that he was one of the best options for an offensively favourable match-up. For example, Sbisa's QoC is only 0.3 apart from that of Vatanen, but QoT is 0.6 apart as Vatanen had the lowest QoT. While Sbisa saw more even ZS%, I think a lot of it is due to the fact that Vatanen had a bigger positive impact on an offensive zone face-off.

Sbisa had GF% of 45.5 compared to Vatanen's 61% on 5on5 with similar QoC and QoT. I think that even with Vatanen's high OZS% of 53.7 Sbisa wouldn't have been able to make as big of an impact on GF%.

Sbisa also played himself right off the team, so that might not be the best example.

No one is saying Vatanen didn't play well, in the situation he was put in, but you just can't ignore that he was put in an insanely favorable situation, as far as zone starts and opportunities go. Sami was our Krug, or Leddy. Not as good offensively as Krug, but better (IMO) than both defensively.

I'm eager to see how Vatanen does this season, and I'm interested in seeing how Boudreau uses him. Moving forward, I'd like to see Sami get some more responsibilities, in part because I want to see him be more than a Krug or a Leddy, and in part because I just don't think we have the depth or top heavy ability(defensively) to have a defenseman play such a niche role. Unless Fowler continues to improve, and Lindholm breaks out(not to mention needing a better season from Beauchemin), we're going to need 3 D lines that can handle respectable minutes.

Edit: As far as the linemate situation goes, while true, I'm not really sure how much more you can realistically ask a coach to do for a player. I know Puq wasn't suggesting that Boudreau should have done that. I just don't think we'd be doing Sami any good by putting him in even more favorable situations. In my opinion, you need to be willing to use the kids outside their comfort zones at times(within reason... otherwise you're just going to cause the kids to flounder), because at some point the opposing teams are going to do whatever they can to do it for you, and you want your kids to be ready for it. That's exactly what happened to Leddy in the playoffs, and it's why it's not as common to see sheltered offensive defensemen like that.

 

[Hagged]

I just don't think we'd be doing Sami any good by putting him in even more favorable situations. In my opinion, you need to be willing to use the kids outside their comfort zones at times(within reason... otherwise you're just going to cause the kids to flounder), because at some point the opposing teams are going to do whatever they can to do it for you, and you want your kids to be ready for it. That's exactly what happened to Leddy in the playoffs, and it's why it's not as common to see sheltered offensive defensemen like that.

I think this happened last season already:

In these 20 games Vatanen had ZS% of 50 or less:

Sun, Oct, 13, 2013 Senators 1 at Ducks 4
Wed, Oct, 16, 2013 Flames 2 at Ducks 3
Fri, Oct, 25, 2013 Ducks 2 at Senators 1
Thu, Oct, 31, 2013 Ducks 2 at Bruins 3 (SO)
Sat, Nov, 2, 2013 Ducks 6 at Sabres 3
Fri, Nov, 29, 2013 Flames 2 at Ducks 5
Tue, Dec, 3, 2013 Kings 3 at Ducks 2 (SO)
Sun, Dec, 15, 2013 Oilers 2 at Ducks 3
Sat, Dec, 28, 2013 Coyotes 2 at Ducks 3 (OT)
Tue, Dec, 31, 2013 Sharks 3 at Ducks 6
Tue, Jan, 7, 2014 Bruins 2 at Ducks 5
Fri, Jan, 17, 2014 Ducks 2 at Blackhawks 4
Mon, Feb, 3, 2014 Blue Jackets 4 at Ducks 2
Wed, Feb, 5, 2014 Blackhawks 2 at Ducks 0
Sun, Mar, 23, 2014 Panthers 2 at Ducks 6
Fri, Mar, 28, 2014 Ducks 3 at Oilers 4 (OT)
Sat, Mar, 29, 2014 Ducks 5 at Canucks 1
Mon, Mar, 31, 2014 Jets 4 at Ducks 5 (OT)
Sun, Apr, 6, 2014 Ducks 2 at Oilers 4
Sun, Apr, 13, 2014 Avalanche 2 at Ducks 3 (OT)

In these games he had a CF% of 53.4%, average ZS% of 39.34 (Didn't find number of zone starts so this is an average over the game by game ZS% stats provided by extraskater), and while he had a low QoC, 27.5 in these games, there was a game like the March 28th against the Oilers where he had 22 minutes of even strength TOI (26 minutes total) with QoC of 29.5. In that game he was the least sheltered of all D-men (with Beauchemin), had the highest QoC and team lowest OZS% with Getzlaf (a high QoT, though, indicating that he might have played a lot behind Getzlaf's line). Fowler was out that game, Lindholm, Sbisa, Lovejoy and Robidas split the remaining TOI giving them all TOI around 17 minutes.

It seems to me that Vatanen isn't too much in trouble when he isn't sheltered though I admit the sample is too small for the CF numbers to be reliable, that's why I didn't even list the GF% of this span (though it would have been flattering to Vatanen) as goal stats are much more noisy than corsi.

It also seems like Vatanen was an option to take on the big minutes when Fowler wasn't in the line up even if it was just one game late in the season without any fear of missing the playoffs. Or maybe it was exactly as you put it, using him outside his comfort zone, within reason.

 

[PuqTalk]

I think this happened last season already:

In these 20 games Vatanen had ZS% of 50 or less:

Sun, Oct, 13, 2013 Senators 1 at Ducks 4
Wed, Oct, 16, 2013 Flames 2 at Ducks 3
Fri, Oct, 25, 2013 Ducks 2 at Senators 1
Thu, Oct, 31, 2013 Ducks 2 at Bruins 3 (SO)
Sat, Nov, 2, 2013 Ducks 6 at Sabres 3
Fri, Nov, 29, 2013 Flames 2 at Ducks 5
Tue, Dec, 3, 2013 Kings 3 at Ducks 2 (SO)
Sun, Dec, 15, 2013 Oilers 2 at Ducks 3
Sat, Dec, 28, 2013 Coyotes 2 at Ducks 3 (OT)
Tue, Dec, 31, 2013 Sharks 3 at Ducks 6
Tue, Jan, 7, 2014 Bruins 2 at Ducks 5
Fri, Jan, 17, 2014 Ducks 2 at Blackhawks 4
Mon, Feb, 3, 2014 Blue Jackets 4 at Ducks 2
Wed, Feb, 5, 2014 Blackhawks 2 at Ducks 0
Sun, Mar, 23, 2014 Panthers 2 at Ducks 6
Fri, Mar, 28, 2014 Ducks 3 at Oilers 4 (OT)
Sat, Mar, 29, 2014 Ducks 5 at Canucks 1
Mon, Mar, 31, 2014 Jets 4 at Ducks 5 (OT)
Sun, Apr, 6, 2014 Ducks 2 at Oilers 4
Sun, Apr, 13, 2014 Avalanche 2 at Ducks 3 (OT)

In these games he had a CF% of 53.4%, average ZS% of 39.34 (Didn't find number of zone starts so this is an average over the game by game ZS% stats provided by extraskater), and while he had a low QoC, 27.5 in these games, there was a game like the March 28th against the Oilers where he had 22 minutes of even strength TOI (26 minutes total) with QoC of 29.5. In that game he was the least sheltered of all D-men (with Beauchemin), had the highest QoC and team lowest OZS% with Getzlaf (a high QoT, though, indicating that he might have played a lot behind Getzlaf's line). Fowler was out that game, Lindholm, Sbisa, Lovejoy and Robidas split the remaining TOI giving them all TOI around 17 minutes.

It seems to me that Vatanen isn't too much in trouble when he isn't sheltered though I admit the sample is too small for the CF numbers to be reliable, that's why I didn't even list the GF% of this span (though it would have been flattering to Vatanen) as goal stats are much more noisy than corsi.

It also seems like Vatanen was an option to take on the big minutes when Fowler wasn't in the line up even if it was just one game late in the season without any fear of missing the playoffs. Or maybe it was exactly as you put it, using him outside his comfort zone, within reason.

Just to expand on this a little bit further, Vatanen's net CF% relative to the rest of the team was +28.1% against the STL, BOS, CHI, and SJ who are all within top-10 in possession statistics (http://www.extraskater.com/player/714/sami-vatanen/gamelog/2013). The team's Corsi-rating was that much higher against the best when he was on the ice. Again, the sample size is small, so it may feel like cherry-picking, but it's still something worth looking at.

 

[190Octane]

Just to expand on this a little bit further, Vatanen's net CF% relative to the rest of the team was +28.1% against the STL, BOS, CHI, and SJ who are all within top-10 in possession statistics (http://www.extraskater.com/player/714/sami-vatanen/gamelog/2013). The team's Corsi-rating was that much higher against the best when he was on the ice. Again, the sample size is small, so it may feel like cherry-picking, but it's still something worth looking at.

Vatanen drives the play a lot more than people give him credit for I think. I made the point in the playoffs that he is by far the best at hitting the stretch pass and creating 2 on 1s.

It can be an adventure when he gets hemmed up in the d zone but to me he definitely adds a lot more than be subtracts and he's quickly becoming one of my favorites.

 

[PuqTalk]

It can be an adventure when he gets hemmed up in the d zone but to me he definitely adds a lot more than be subtracts and he's quickly becoming one of my favorites.

Honestly, he's so quick half the time it's not a huge deal. There are moments where he over pursues and physically cannot gain his positioning back, but those are few and far between. I think he's very, very underrated. I also think he's a lot stronger defensively than many people give him credit for.