Fowler & vats or fowler & lindholm

[TopShelfWaterBottle]

Which tandem would you rather have on the ice be it Pts wise or defense wise
Don't know if it's already been discussed but should help make the offseason go faster

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[NEWFowler]

Lindholm is the better player. I love Vatanen but this one is an easy decision for me.

 

[PuqTalk]

It depends on how they're utilized. The good news is we're going to have so much talent that we're not going to have to ice a shutdown/matchup pairing in the near future. Vatanen thinks the game better offensively than the both of them, and he pushes possession a lot. I'd kill to see Boudreau give him a chance alongside Fowler. I definitely believe they could dominate ice and there'd be potential for them to both be in the 40's or 50's in terms of points. Then, as @kid_ish (great follow if anyone likes talking Ducks hockey) mentioned on twitter, while you deploy Fowler and Vatanen in the same way Chicago did Keith-Seabrook, give the so called "shutdown" role to Lindholm, Beauchemin, Lovejoy, and Stoner/Allen/Fistric by committee.

 

[snarktacular]

What about a top pair of Lindholm and Vatanen?

 

[Lord Flashheart]

What about a top pair of Lindholm and Vatanen?

Sounds like a cup winner.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

 

[TopShelfWaterBottle]

It depends on how they're utilized. The good news is we're going to have so much talent that we're not going to have to ice a shutdown/matchup pairing in the near future. Vatanen thinks the game better offensively than the both of them, and he pushes possession a lot. I'd kill to see Boudreau give him a chance alongside Boudreau. I definitely believe they could dominate ice and there'd be potential for them to both be in the 40's or 50's in terms of points. Then, as @kid_ish (great follow if anyone likes talking Ducks hockey) mentioned on twitter, while you deploy Fowler and Vatanen in the same way Chicago did Keith-Seabrook, give the so called "shutdown" role to Lindholm, Beauchemin, Lovejoy, and Stoner/Allen/Fistric by committee.

I also read the article and that's what pushed me to start the thread. I guess we have to see how beauchemin is this upcoming season to see if he can take the shutdown role

 

[Ducks DVM]

I'd want Lindholm and Vatanen as my offensive pairing with Getzlaf and Fowler with my shutdown line. I think that if they can just find a LW who can run with them that

? - Getzlaf - Perry
Lindholm - Vatanen

would have the potential to be every bit as scary as the 5 man Russian unit used to be for the Redwings.

 

[BringBackTheIceman]

I'd want Lindholm and Vatanen as my offensive pairing with Getzlaf and Fowler with my shutdown line. I think that if they can just find a LW who can run with them that

? - Getzlaf - Perry
Lindholm - Vatanen

would have the potential to be every bit as scary as the 5 man Russian unit used to be for the Redwings.

woah, those guys had insane chemistry, I don't know about that.

 

[HanSolo]

If its the powerplay Vatanen

If its any other situation its Lindholm.

 

[Ducks DVM]

woah, those guys had insane chemistry, I don't know about that.

Don't bring reality into this please.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

What about a top pair of Lindholm and Vatanen?

I seen this episode before... it equated with no one on the blue line while both pinched. ha ha ha

If its the powerplay Vatanen

If its any other situation its Lindholm.

Couldn't have put it any other way.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Fowler - Lindholm
Vatanen - stay at home veteran dman

No need to pair up Lindholm and Vatanen. Keep them separated and have 2 sets of unreal dmen... God I love Anaheim's youth(coming from a non Ducks fan)

 

[snarktacular]

I seen this episode before... it equated with no one on the blue line while both pinched. ha ha ha

Ha, I forgot about that play. That was pretty bad.

But I'm serious. I don't expect it, but there's a non-trivial possibility that Vatanen-Lindholm might overtake Fowler-Lindholm/whoever.

 

[Paul4587]

Id pick Lindholm in every single situation over Vatanen including the PP

 

[Fighter]

If its the powerplay Vatanen

If its any other situation its Lindholm.

Ditto.

Lindholm is more solid overall, but if I have to score Vats is my man.

 

[42]

Id pick Lindholm in every single situation over Vatanen including the PP

Same here. Lindholm's offense is getting seriously underrated. Just because he is good defensively does not mean he cannot be good the other way too.

 

[Sean Garrity]

Lindholm in every situation. Vatanen needs to prove his offense is worth the difference between the defense before I put him in any situation over Lindholm. When has he shown the ability to be an offensive catalyst offensively at the NHL level?

 

[Ducks in a row]

Cam Fowler - Hampus Lindholm would be a good defense pair to go against opponents top scoring lines. Sami Vatanen should not be used against those lines.

 

[PuqTalk]

Cam Fowler - Hampus Lindholm would be a good defense pair to go against opponents top scoring lines. Sami Vatanen should not be used against those lines.

The idea is that if Vatanen is paired with Fowler, they'd still get most of the icetime among the defense but wouldn't be matched up against the top competition. Similar to what you see in Chicago with Keith-Seabrook. They were dominant because, on top of being great players, they weren't forced to play "shutdown" defense all year and took great advantage over weaker competition in great matchup situations. With how much greater the amount of shots Anaheim puts on net is with Vatanen on the ice, it'd be downright silly of Boudreau not to catch on.

I don't think we need to be worried about that though, because Fowler, Lindholm, and Vatanen were given the most ice time in the last three games against LA. If one thing is clear, Boudreau knows who to put in which situations (even if some silly lineup decisions are made beforehand).

 

[Getzmonster]

IIRC, Cam-Lovejoy have mostly been used with the Saku line which played a more defensive role. Hampus-Beauch were primarily out there with the Getzlaf line, and Vats never had a steady role, but it stands to reason that he would be used in a purely offensive role.

I'm guessing that Kesler's new line will play the same role as Saku's only with the potential for more offense. I could see Cam-Hampus being logical here as Cam has been leaned on to do the heavy-lifting defensively while playing alongside Lovejoy, and behind a mediocre offensive line. Hampus has the size and defensive game to upgrade Lovejoy, while giving both he and Cam more freedom to open up offensively (playing behind a better line as well). To me, a C-K-S line backed by Cam-Magnus would be strong defensively and offensively potent. Putting Vats on that line seems like a mismatch given the role. He would be the offensive catalyst forcing Cam into a more SAH role. Not to mention that while Vats has shown better play on his own end than I expected, he still isn't a guy I want out there in the toughest matchup situations.

If Vats really tears it up, I'd rather have him out there behind Getzy's line playing with Beauch (or Rev depending on who looks more solid). Sami has a great outlet pass and can jump in on the offense to give our top line that 4th attacker needed at times.

Most likely though, we see the same pairings as last season with Vats on the 3rd D-pair. That gives us three balanced lines, each with an offensive puck-mover and a more physical guy:

Cam-Rev
Hampus-Franky
Road Cone-Vats

 

[Kariya 9]

Lindholm is still ahead of Vatanen on the depth chart for me.

Cam and Hampus have to work on getting their shots to the net though.

 

[Sojourn]

The idea is that if Vatanen is paired with Fowler, they'd still get most of the icetime among the defense but wouldn't be matched up against the top competition. Similar to what you see in Chicago with Keith-Seabrook. They were dominant because, on top of being great players, they weren't forced to play "shutdown" defense all year and took great advantage over weaker competition in great matchup situations. With how much greater the amount of shots Anaheim puts on net is with Vatanen on the ice, it'd be downright silly of Boudreau not to catch on.

I don't think we need to be worried about that though, because Fowler, Lindholm, and Vatanen were given the most ice time in the last three games against LA. If one thing is clear, Boudreau knows who to put in which situations (even if some silly lineup decisions are made beforehand).

The problem, though, is that Lindholm might have gotten top 4 minutes, but his actual responsibilities was a bit more varied. He was a bit more sheltered, at times, than you would expect a top 4 defenseman to be. That's the norm for a rookie, but it's a bit misleading to just call him a top 4 guy right now. If you assume you've got Fowler-Vatanen out there in more favorable offensive roles, that means Lindholm has to carry a much heavier load defensively, and to be frank, he just hasn't proven he can do that consistently.

Vatanen was simply the most sheltered defenseman we had, and by far. All that stuff about Anaheim putting more shots on net really needs context, because he was effectively spending the vast, vast majority of his time in situations where the Ducks would put more shots on net. You can't just expect to give him 20-25 minutes a game, and expect that to hold true. While you can say he contributed to putting more shots on net, you can't ignore the situations he was on the ice.

As far as the question is concerned, the answer is easy: Lindholm and Fowler. Fowler is the only one of the three who has actually seen top pairing responsibilities, and who has shown he can handle 20+ minutes a game without needing any sheltering at all. Lindholm comes a distant second, having seen actual top 4 responsibilities at times, and he's shown he can be an effective two-way defenseman(again, at times). Sami is a very distant last, and right now he's basically a 3rd pairing offensive defenseman. I expect this all to change, with Lindholm and Sami both earning more responsibilities, but let's be honest here... any top pairing that includes either of Lindholm or Vatanen is questionable, at best, as of right now. Lindholm would just be less questionable.

 

[OCSportsfan]

The problem, though, is that Lindholm might have gotten top 4 minutes, but his actual responsibilities was a bit more varied. He was a bit more sheltered, at times, than you would expect a top 4 defenseman to be. That's the norm for a rookie, but it's a bit misleading to just call him a top 4 guy right now. If you assume you've got Fowler-Vatanen out there in more favorable offensive roles, that means Lindholm has to carry a much heavier load defensively, and to be frank, he just hasn't proven he can do that consistently.

Vatanen was simply the most sheltered defenseman we had, and by far. All that stuff about Anaheim putting more shots on net really needs context, because he was effectively spending the vast, vast majority of his time in situations where the Ducks would put more shots on net. You can't just expect to give him 20-25 minutes a game, and expect that to hold true. While you can say he contributed to putting more shots on net, you can't ignore the situations he was on the ice.

As far as the question is concerned, the answer is easy: Lindholm and Fowler. Fowler is the only one of the three who has actually seen top pairing responsibilities, and who has shown he can handle 20+ minutes a game without needing any sheltering at all. Lindholm comes a distant second, having seen actual top 4 responsibilities at times, and he's shown he can be an effective two-way defenseman(again, at times). Sami is a very distant last, and right now he's basically a 3rd pairing offensive defenseman. I expect this all to change, with Lindholm and Sami both earning more responsibilities, but let's be honest here... any top pairing that includes either of Lindholm or Vatanen is questionable, at best, as of right now. Lindholm would just be less questionable.

i would say Lindholm Vatanen would be a better top pairing, but i am a huge Lindholm fan, and both he and fowler pally the left. I think he will be our #1 soon (2-3 years), and Fowler will be paired with a Seabrook type player and we will have an incredible top 4.

As far as Vatanen, he may have been sheltered, but in that role he is great. No one on a 3rd/4th line can handle his puck moving and skating ability. He is a big reason we made a come back in the Kings series. Now can he do it against top pairing players, who knows, but he will have a great year as a third pairing.

 

[PuqTalk]

...Lindholm has to carry a much heavier load defensively, and to be frank, he just hasn't proven he can do that consistently.

Oh, I agree 100%. It's one of the reasons I'm so surprised that many are ready to crown him our franchise defender already.

Vatanen was simply the most sheltered defenseman we had, and by far.

This is also 100% true.

All that stuff about Anaheim putting more shots on net really needs context, because he was effectively spending the vast, vast majority of his time in situations where the Ducks would put more shots on net. You can't just expect to give him 20-25 minutes a game, and expect that to hold true. While you can say he contributed to putting more shots on net, you can't ignore the situations he was on the ice.

Like I've said before, if he happened to get playing time with Lindholm or Fowler this year, I wouldn't expect those possession numbers to be at the same rate they're at right now. I don't think it's impossible from what I've seen when they're together, but I'm also realistic in expecting it to drop down over an obviously larger sample size. And yes, more often than not he was put on the ice in areas where he would succeed (starting the majority of his shifts in the offensive zone, much more than other players), but linemate-wise he wasn't given the best opportunities. This is where there's give-and-take, and it's fair to not expect his on-ice effect to drop dramatically if he's with Fowler, x, Getzlaf, and Perry in offensive situations.