Foster Hewitt Divisional Quarterfinals: L'Equipe National vs. Cincinnati

[Sturminator]

All-Time Draft #7 Division Winner and Quarter Finalist
All-Time Draft #8 Division Winner and Semi Finalist
All-Time Draft #9 Division Winner and Finalist
All-Time Draft #10 Division Winner and Semi Finalist
All-Time Draft #11 Division Winner and Quarter Finalist
All-Time Draft #12 Division Winner and Champion
All-Time Draft #13 (2010) Division Runner-Up
All-Time Draft #14 (2011) Division Runner-Up​

L'équipe nationale de France​

(1928-2012)

Head Coach: Jacques Lemaire
Assistant Coach: Frank Patrick

Frank Mahovlich (A) - Sidney Crosby (A) - Didier Pitre
Paul Thompson - Milan Novy (A) - Odie Cleghorn
Nick Metz - Ralph Backstrom - Floyd Curry
Jaroslav Jirik - Billy Burch - Alf Skinner
Buddy O'Connor (C)
Harry Oliver (RW, C)

Valeri Vasiliev (C) - Jan Suchy
Moose Vasko - Frank Patrick
Taffy Abel - Jiri Bubla
Behn Wilson

Dominik Hasek
Chuck Rayner

Vs.

The Cincinnati Fireworks

Head Coach: Pete Green


Syd Howe - Stan Mikita - Lanny McDonald (A)
Dean Prentice - Rick MacLeish - Andy Bathgate
Bob Pulford - Dave Poulin (C) - Mario Tremblay
Red Hamill - Art Chapman - Rick Vaive



Al MacInnis (A) - Jacques Laperriere
Carol Vadnais - Herb Gardiner
Barclay Plager (A) - Ed Jovanovski

George Hainsworth
Mike Vernon


Spares: Clint Smith C/LW, Haken Loob RW, Tomas Jonsson D​

Click to read more...

 

[jarek]

This series is very surprisingly silent.

 

[nik jr]

This series is very surprisingly silent.

both GM's are usually talkative.






both coaches put much value on control of the neutral zone. green's ottawa teams played a primitive kind of trap nearly a century ago.

how will each team's players adjust to playing a fairly restrictive defensive system? each team has a star W who apparently had some trouble fitting into a defensive system (mahovlich, bathgate). but punch imlach may have been the problem more than the system.


difference in goaltending is big. i also like rayner more than vernon.


3 of france's key players, crosby, suchy and patrick, had short careers or short peaks.


cincinnati looks to have a very dangerous 1st PP. OTOH, i think france would not be a heavily penalized team, partly b/c of its roster and partly b/c of its coach. lemaire always emphasized discipline, and that included avoiding penalties. lemaire was also a very good PK coach, and france also has hasek.

 

[jarek]

I think Hasek, ultimately, might be the biggest difference. Cincinnati, in my mind, absolutely has the better offense, but the difference in goaltending is quite huge.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I thought I would connect on HFBoards after being AFK for the last two days to see attacks flying from Cincinnati side! I've been quite busy in the last few days, but let me assure I will give my thought on this series if I have time tonight, or at the very least tomorrow.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Where the hell has Mark been anyway? Maybe the politics are getting to him, I feel the same.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

how will each team's players adjust to playing a fairly restrictive defensive system? each team has a star W who apparently had some trouble fitting into a defensive system (mahovlich, bathgate). but punch imlach may have been the problem more than the system.

Right. When Dave Keon criticized Bathgate as a guy who didn't know how to win, I used to think that he was a guy who was a puck hog who tore thing up on a crappy team but had trouble playing a team game with good teammates. Sort of like Ilya Kovalchuk until things finally clicked for him about a month into this year. I think that's where the whole "Bathgate needs to be the man of his line" idea came from.

But now I think that it's probably more accurate to say that Bathgate just had trouble fitting into a defensive system, which is a much more common problem for stars to have.

 

[Sturminator]

But now I think that it's probably more accurate to say that Bathgate just had trouble fitting into a defensive system, which is a much more common problem for stars to have.

Unfortunately, he's got it again playing for Pete Green here.

 

[markrander87]

Unfortunately, he's got it again playing for Pete Green here.

Like Howe, Bathgate could play the physical game and was known as a fierce fighter when the occasion warranted it, perhaps an attribute from his youth in a tough Winnipeg neighborhood known for its boxers. Bathgate made the First All-Star Team again in 1962-63 and was voted to the Second Team the next year. Though truly an individualist on the ice and off, he always placed the team above his own accomplishments and was disappointed with the Rangers' consistently poor performances. In February 1964 he was traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, a team preparing itself for a run at the Stanley Cup. Bathgate would realize his greatest thrill in hockey when the Leafs, helped by his timely goals in the playoffs, won the championship that year.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Lege...er.jsp?mem=p197801&type=Player&page=bio&list=

 

[markrander87]

Toronto was a good experience for Bathgate, who scored the Stanley Cup-winning goal that spring as the Leafs defeated the Detroit Red Wings. But the next year was difficult for Andy. "I broke my thumb and never did get going after that. Punch wanted a fourth Cup and had us practicing twice a day in the playoffs. We were pooped from practicing so much." The Montreal Canadiens sent the Leafs packing in six games in the semi-finals in the spring of '65.

http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep197801.shtml



Do you actually have any literature specifically stating that Bathgate rebelled against playing in any type of coaching system? Or is this just one of your hypothesis you create?

 

[Sturminator]

http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep197801.shtml



Do you actually have any literature specifically stating that Bathgate rebelled against playing in any type of coaching system? Or is this just one of your hypothesis you create?

I didn't create the hypothesis, mark. If you're interested in knowing more about how those old Sens teams looked, I suggest you read the thread I'm working on about the 1923 playoffs.

 

[Hobnobs]

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Lege...er.jsp?mem=p197801&type=Player&page=bio&list=

You do realise that there is a difference between giving your all to a team and fitting a certain system?

 

[markrander87]

I didn't create the hypothesis, mark. If you're interested in knowing more about how those old Sens teams looked, I suggest you read the thread I'm working on about the 1923 playoffs.

You are saying that Andy Bathgate would not be able to play for a "defensive minded coach". Prove it.

"defensive minded coach" because Cy Denneny was able to play for Green, so Andy Bathgate is more then able to as well.

 

[markrander87]

I could care less if I win this series, give it to EB in 4.

Prove to me how Andy Bathgate could not play for Green and yet Cy Denney was able to. Save the "well he was playing with Nighbor BS because Bathgate is on a line with Prentice.

It's no wonder guys like Stoneberg etc.. have no interest in this anymore, we spend our entire time proving these backwards arguements it's hilarious.

 

[markrander87]

*Cy Denneny.. I am unable to edit my posts, so I will use the * method.

 

[markrander87]

Prove that Milan Novy could play for Jacques Lemaire...

You have no idea. Anybody can say well he can't so prove it. This is what the ATD has gone too.

My arguement for EB not winning is that Jacques Lemaire was a defensive minded coach and Milan Novy was a high scoring Czechslovakian player, how will he play for him?


Do you realize how foolish this sounds?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Prove that Milan Novy could play for Jacques Lemaire...

You have no idea. Anybody can say well he can't so prove it. This is what the ATD has gone too.

My arguement for EB not winning is that Jacques Lemaire was a defensive minded coach and Milan Novy was a high scoring Czechslovakian player, how will he play for him?


Do you realize how foolish this sounds?

Czechoslovakia used a left wing lock, at least for international tournaments.

It's fairly well known that Bathgate didn't fit it well with Toronto for whatever reason, despite winning a Cup there, he was traded away soon thereafter.

Is there evidence that Green could coach both ways? It's possible that he coached around his team's strengths in Ottawa.

 

[markrander87]

Czechoslovakia used a left wing lock, at least for international tournaments.

It's fairly well known that Bathgate didn't fit it well with Toronto for whatever reason, despite winning a Cup there, he was traded away soon thereafter.

"For whatever reason"

For whatever reason is not due to not wanting to play in a defensive system, "For Whatever reason" is because several of the players were against the amount of practices Punch Imlach would hold. It had absolutely nothing to do with Bathgate "Not being able to play defensively"

 

[Sturminator]

You really don't read for content, mark. What I said specifically in regards to that line and Pete Green was:

1) Green's teams were very conservative offensively and liked to clog the neutral zone with a forward hanging back.
2) Like all conservative teams, they will need to be able to dump the puck into the offensive zone when there aren't clear opportunities to gain the zone with speed.
3) Dean Prentice is the line's only strong forechecker.
4) Dean Prentice is also the line's only defensive forward.
5) I can't see Green sending Prentice in on the forecheck, so one of MacLeish or Bathgate will have to do it, and that's a bad fit.

It's not a proof, mark; it's just an argument. I happen to think it's a sensible one, and an ironic one considering that you were the guy beating the drum about how bad it is to have one player on a line filling two roles, but others may disagree. Your crowing about PROOF!1! is just silly.

 

[markrander87]

Czechoslovakia used a left wing lock, at least for international tournaments.

It's fairly well known that Bathgate didn't fit it well with Toronto for whatever reason, despite winning a Cup there, he was traded away soon thereafter.

Is there evidence that Green could coach both ways? It's possible that he coached around his team's strengths in Ottawa.

I've already posted this, several times.

A coach coaches, a good coach brings out the best in his players, of course he coached to his teams strengths, thats what a good coach does. Do we need some sort of article for common sense?

 

[Sturminator]

Prove that Milan Novy could play for Jacques Lemaire...

You have no idea. Anybody can say well he can't so prove it. This is what the ATD has gone too.

My arguement for EB not winning is that Jacques Lemaire was a defensive minded coach and Milan Novy was a high scoring Czechslovakian player, how will he play for him?


Do you realize how foolish this sounds?

Well, I do think L'Equipe has some issues with coach/team chemistry, as well. Novy is one of them, and Mahovlich is another one. I'm not sure what's so foolish about it.

 

[markrander87]

You really don't read for content, mark. What I said specifically in regards to that line and Pete Green was:

1) Green's teams were very conservative offensively and liked to clog the neutral zone with a forward hanging back.
2) Like all conservative teams, they will need to be able to dump the puck into the offensive zone when there aren't clear opportunities to gain the zone with speed.
3) Dean Prentice is the line's only strong forechecker.
4) Dean Prentice is also the line's only defensive forward.
5) I can't see Green sending Prentice in on the forecheck, so one of MacLeish or Bathgate will have to do it, and that's a bad fit.

It's not a proof, mark; it's just an argument. I happen to think it's a sensible one, and an ironic one considering that you were the guy beating the drum about how bad it is to have one player on a line filling two roles, but others may disagree. Your crowing about PROOF!1! is just silly.

You're arguement is that what? 25/30% of the time when Bathgate can't gane the zone with speed (Which is what he was known for) is that Rick Macleish is unable to forcheck and or "hang back" and clog up the neutral zone?

I am reading this correctly?

Honest to god

 

[markrander87]

Well, I do think L'Equipe has some issues with coach/team chemistry, as well. Novy is one of them, and Mahovlich is another one. I'm not sure what's so foolish about it.

Enter the ATD politics.

Why haven't you voiced these opinions?

How is it fair for one GM to have to brush off these side distractions and not focus on the actual opponent and his players and match ups, and yet you say nothing about the exact same "issues" about the same team.

 

[Sturminator]

Is there evidence that Green could coach both ways? It's possible that he coached around his team's strengths in Ottawa.

Those Sens seem to have been a very "clutch" team. The more I read about that team, the more I see them, like the 80's Oilers, playing to the score and producing a goal to win it when the games get tight. But then again, much more prominent is the Sens "scientific system" and its heavily defensive tilt. If mark would stop ranting, I would probably have time to praise Green, who looks better and better the more I read about those teams. He was a system coach, to be sure, but it appears to have been a brilliant system that was often underrated and could utterly stifle opponents when necessary.

As we get to the end of the 1923 playoffs, the wheels start to come off of those Sens from a health perspective, but they manage to hold it together and prevail, and it wasn't because of Eddie Gerard, who missed most of the final with a badly seperated shoulder. That team was very tough mentally and seems to have been exceptionally fit; I think Green and Gorman deserve some credit for that.

 

[Sturminator]

You're arguement is that what? 25/30% of the time when Bathgate can't gane the zone with speed (Which is what he was known for) is that Rick Macleish is unable to forcheck and or "hang back" and clog up the neutral zone?

I am reading this correctly?

Honest to god

If opponents focus on harrassing Bathgate in transition, the line will have trouble gaining the zone with speed much more often than that, in my opinion, especially against stud checking LWs. That's why I said to begin with that I think it would be wise for opponents to send their top checkers against the Bathgate line. If you'd pull your ****ing fingers out of your ears, you might have figured out what I was saying back when I said it originally.

Enter the ATD politics.

Why haven't you voiced these opinions?

How is it fair for one GM to have to brush off these side distractions and not focus on the actual opponent and his players and match ups, and yet you say nothing about the exact same "issues" about the same team.

Only one GM in this series proclaimed his team flawless in the assassination thread. To be perfectly honest, I think this is the worst Eagle team I've seen in my years in the ATD, and I think yours is the better squad. I didn't criticize Cincinatti because of ATD politics; I did so because you were asking for it.