Foster Hewitt Division Quarterfinals: (3) West Island Lions vs. (6) Halifax Citadels

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
238
WEST ISLAND LIONS

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GM: Dwight
Assistant GM: Paulina Gretzky
Coach: Cecil Hart
Captain: Wayne Gretzky
Alternates: Zdeno Chara, Jim Schoenfeld

Tommy Phillips - Wayne Gretzky - Charlie Conacher
Rick Martin - Adam Oates - Larry Aurie
Joe Klukay - Don Luce - Tony Amonte
Jamie Benn - Fleming Mackell - Bengt-Ã…ke Gustafsson
Yvon Lambert - Ken Wharram

Zdeno Chara - Rob Blake
Frank Patrick - Ott Heller
Jim Schoenfeld - Wade Redden
Dion Phaneuf - Doug Barkley

Turk Broda
Chuck Rayner

PP1
Rick Martin - Adam Oates - Charlie Conacher
Wayne Gretzky - Rob Blake

PP2
Jamie Benn - Fleming Mackell - Larry Aurie
Zdeno Chara - Frank Patrick

PK1
Don Luce - Joe Klukay
Zdeno Chara - Ott Heller

PK2
Fleming Mackell - Tommy Phillips
Jim Schoenfeld - Rob Blake

PK3
Adam Oates - Larry Aurie



vs.



Halifax Citadels
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GMs: Stoneberg & bluesfan94
Coaches: Anatoli Tarasov & Arkady Chernyshev
Captain: Keon
Alternate Captains: Flaman, Sutter


Roster
Bun Cook - Max Bentley - Sergei Makarov
Aurele Joliat - Milan Nový - Vic Stasiuk
Brian Sutter (A) - Dave Keon (C) - Bobby Rousseau
Igor Liba - Butch Goring - Ron Ellis

Paul Coffey - Fern Flaman (A)
Vitaly Davydov - Ken Reardon
Mike Ramsey - Ron Stackhouse

Terry Sawchuk
Evgeni Nabokov

Spares:
Lynn Patrick, LW
Robert Svehla, D
Brent Sutter, C

1st PP Unit
Joliat - Nový - Makarov
Coffey - Bentley

2nd PP Unit
Cook - Keon - Rousseau
Coffey - Reardon

PK Forwards
Keon - Rousseau
Goring - Joliat

Spares: Liba, Ellis, Cook

PK Defensemen
Ramsey - Flaman
Davydov - Reardon​
 

Stoneberg

Bored
Nov 10, 2005
3,947
73
Halifax
Glad to have squeaked by an excellent Hartford team. Good luck to Dwight in this series.

Hoping to get a few points in before leaving for a trip Saturday morning.

Sawchuk will be the key to this series for Halifax against West Island's fantastic top line. If the Citadels can get a standard clutch playoff performance from him, I think they have a good shot in this series.

Halifax will be sliding Lynn Patrick in to the lineup for Igor Liba to provide a little extra pop in secondary scoring, as well as to the 2nd pp unit. This offensive kick will be necessary to help offset the Lion's potent top line. Offensively, Patrick is more than capable of being a second liner in this draft and I think he'll be well insulated on a line with Goring and Ellis. The Lion's forward core isn't exactly tough overall like Hartford's was, so as long as he stays away from the Chara/Blake pairing I can't imagine he will have much trouble chipping in.

Updated 4th line: Patrick - Goring - Ellis

Second PP unit:
Cook - Keon - Patrick
Coffey-Rousseau

Reardon will slot in for Coffey for maybe 20-30 seconds on the 2nd unit as needed. Moving him off the PP affords us the opportunity to play Reardon a bit more at even strength, and maybe limit Stackhouse's ice time a bit. I'll work on a minutes chart for this series.
 

Dwight

The French Tickler
Jul 8, 2006
8,181
0
West Island
Stalberg/Stoneberg's always been a GM I've admired, so it's a pleasure going up against him this round! Should have some time to put out some arguments before the end of the week. Good luck!
 

Stoneberg

Bored
Nov 10, 2005
3,947
73
Halifax
Thanks for the kind words Dwight, though I'm not sure they're deserved haha. Here we go with my initial thoughts on everything:

Goaltending:
Massive advantage for Halifax – Sawchuk will be the key factor in weathering the storm of West Island’s first line. He’s known as a clutch playoff performer, so he can limit their damage then Halifax is looking pretty good throughout the rest of the lineup.

Coaching:
Decisive advantage for Halifax here as well in my eyes. Tarasov is a top 5 coach for me, and should be at least top 10 for anyone. The fact that he's reunited with his long-time partner in crime from the Soviet national team makes for a big gap in coaching between these two teams in my eyes.

First Lines:
No question, advantage West Island here. One saving grace for Halifax is that the top line will still give up chances as it isn’t noteworthy defensively as an overall unit. With Sawchuk holding the fort Halfax’s speed and transition game will be able to offset some of the damage this line will inevitably do. Hopefully the Lion's fantastic top line doesn't completely overshadow the fact that Makarov and Bentley should still be able to do significant damage as well.

I know Tarasov wasn't really in to matching lines, but hopefully Keon finds his way on to the ice against Gretzky frequently.

Second lines:
Joliat is far and away the best player on either unit and of course Oates is the clear cut 2nd best. I think Novy can arguably brings a similar level of offensive output to Martin depending on how folks value his domestic and international accomplishments, but have to give the slight edge to Martin between the 2 secondary weapons on these units. Stasiuk is the weakest offensive player on either line, but the size and physicality he can bring will be valuable in this matchup. I also think Halifax has the edge on the defensive side of things.

I’d call these lines a wash or give Halifax has the slight edge here as an overall unit, thanks to Joliat.

Third lines:
Both lines are certainly strong defensively, with Amonte likely being the weakest link in that regard. Halifax again has the clear cut best player on either line by a mile in Keon, who’s the best offensive and defensive player on either unit. In addition, Halifax also has the second best offensive player on either unit in Rousseau, who’s also very significantly better defensively than Amonte. I think Sutter also brings a bit more offense than Klukay, while Klukay is of course a much, much better defensive player.

Big advantage for Halifax here due to a large advantage offensively and probably at least a slight advantage defensively. Much of the depth scoring to offset the Lions top line will hopefully come from this line.

Fourth Lines:
Patrick has been slotted in for Liba as Halifax will need to squeeze out as much offense as possible from the bottom six and second pp unit. Patrick has good enough vsX numbers to be a top 6 winger in this draft (10 year: 67.9 / 7 year: 79.4), better offensive numbers than both of West Island's second line wingers. Patrick will be skating with a strong ES producer and two way player in Ellis, while both flank Goring who has surprisingly solid vsX scores (10 yr: 61.4 / 7 year: 67.8) in addition to bringing a defensive game and intangibles. I think Patrick is insulated well enough with these two that this line can punish the Lions bottom 6 in this series, especially their fourth line.

Frankly, I think Halifax has the 3 best players on either 4th line, and another big advantage here.

First pairings:
Coffey is the best defenseman on either pairing, while Flaman is the worst (which is to be expected in a paring of #1 & #3 vs a #1 & #2). I'd say Halifax still gets the slight edge here as a result of having a better #1 defenseman who fits perfectly in to the playing style of the team, outweighing the negative having the lesser partner.

AST's // Norris record
PC: 4X 1st team, 4X 2nd team // 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 9
ZC: 3X 1st team, 4X 2nd team // 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8
RB: 1X 1st team, 3X 2nd team // 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 12
FF: No 1st team, 3X 2nd team // 3, 3, 3, 5, 5

Second Pairings:
Again Halifax has the clear cut best player on either pairing in Reardon. I’m not even entirely sold on Patrick being better than Davydov in a vacuum, especially given his short career. Even if there was a gap, it certainly wouldn’t come close to offsetting Reardon (2X 1st team AS, 3X 2nd team AS) over Heller (1X 2nd team AS).

Huge advantage for Halifax here – hopefully the extra minutes the Citadels can give Reardon at even strength after shuffling the lineup can be a difference maker in this series. He’ll generally play with either Davydov or Ramsey, both of who are excellent fits with him.

Third Parings:
Both are solid enough, I can’t see there being a big difference maker here, maybe slight advantage for the Lions. The more Halifax can get Reardon out at even strength instead of Stackhouse, the better.

Powerplay:
The Gretzky Conacher duo remains a lethal force on the PP, but I would contend that Halifax has the remaining 4 of the top 6 weapons on either PP (Makarov, Coffey, Bentley, Joliat), while Novy is a bit of a weak link. Slight advantage to West Island in first units thanks to Gretzky, but I don't think it's a significant gap.

With Patrick injected in to the lineup Halifax has a significantly better second powerplay unit. I think the gap in second units is bigger than the one in first units, which probably makes the PP units close to a wash, all things considered.

Penalty Kill:
Advantage to Halifax on the forward units as they don't give up anything defensively while providing a much bigger shorthanded threat.

Slight advantage to West Island on the back end with Chara being the driving force.

I'd say the huge advantage for Halifax between the pipes with Sawchuk makes their overall PK unit more effective.

Reasons I think Halifax can win:
  • Huge advantage between the pipes: Halifax has Terry Sawchuk and it's the playoffs.
  • Halifax has the clear cut best player on every unit except for 1st lines and 3rd D pairings.
  • Halifax's bottom six is world's better offensively and probably at least slightly better defensively - they should be able to do a lot of damage in this series.
  • Halifax has the better coaching staff (who should be able to steer the players away from the distraction of Paulina Gretzky).
 

Dwight

The French Tickler
Jul 8, 2006
8,181
0
West Island
Some good points made here, but obviously some I disagree with :D

First of all, this is a team that would have finished higher than 6th in any other division, so it's no surprise that this is closer than a 3v6 matchup would typically be.

Goaltending:
Massive advantage for Halifax – Sawchuk will be the key factor in weathering the storm of West Island’s first line. He’s known as a clutch playoff performer, so he can limit their damage then Halifax is looking pretty good throughout the rest of the lineup.

I'm not going to try and build this up to be more than it is, but Broda is also seen as a very very good playoffs goaltender. I don't discredit Sawchuk as still being the better goalie in the series, but I don't think the advantage for Halifax is massive at all. Still, a definite edge goes to Halifax

Coaching:
Decisive advantage for Halifax here as well in my eyes. Tarasov is a top 5 coach for me, and should be at least top 10 for anyone. The fact that he's reunited with his long-time partner in crime from the Soviet national team makes for a big gap in coaching between these two teams in my eyes.

Tarasov is definitely a top 10 coach in my opinion. I'd be interested to see where people rank Cecil Hart on an all-time level though. I don't think he's far away from Tarasov much at all, and my team fits his coaching style very well. Again, maybe I give the edge to Halifax, but not by as much as we're being led to believe here.

First Lines:
No question, advantage West Island here. One saving grace for Halifax is that the top line will still give up chances as it isn’t noteworthy defensively as an overall unit. With Sawchuk holding the fort Halfax’s speed and transition game will be able to offset some of the damage this line will inevitably do. Hopefully the Lion's fantastic top line doesn't completely overshadow the fact that Makarov and Bentley should still be able to do significant damage as well.

I know Tarasov wasn't really in to matching lines, but hopefully Keon finds his way on to the ice against Gretzky frequently.

Hopefully he does, but even in that case, I don't believe you have any one line that is strong enough to shut down my top line, even with Sawchuk between the pipes. I think Keon is your best bet, but your coach not matching lines I think works to your detriment here, because I feel Gretzky really needs a specific shadow to be most effectively stymied.

As for the rest of the line, I think West Island has a clear edge over Halifax at every position. We know Gretzky is a good deal better than Bentley, Conacher is better than Makarov (but I like Makarov), and Phillips is better than Bun Cook. Clear edge West Island, and I think this is actually the biggest gap in the series.

Second lines:
Joliat is far and away the best player on either unit and of course Oates is the clear cut 2nd best. I think Novy can arguably brings a similar level of offensive output to Martin depending on how folks value his domestic and international accomplishments, but have to give the slight edge to Martin between the 2 secondary weapons on these units. Stasiuk is the weakest offensive player on either line, but the size and physicality he can bring will be valuable in this matchup. I also think Halifax has the edge on the defensive side of things.

I’d call these lines a wash or give Halifax has the slight edge here as an overall unit, thanks to Joliat.

I don't think you're far off with your analysis here. I'd say Oates and Joliat are a little closer than you imply, but yes he's the top guy on either of our lines. I'd still put Martin above Novy and Aurie above Stasiuk but as you said it's pretty close. I definitely disagree that you have a defensive edge though, as I think Larry Aurie's probably the best defensive forward on either unit, and Oates and Martin were both pretty solid as well (Oates more so).

I think a wash is pretty fair to call here, but if anyone gets the edge, it would be West Island.

Third lines:
Both lines are certainly strong defensively, with Amonte likely being the weakest link in that regard. Halifax again has the clear cut best player on either line by a mile in Keon, who’s the best offensive and defensive player on either unit. In addition, Halifax also has the second best offensive player on either unit in Rousseau, who’s also very significantly better defensively than Amonte. I think Sutter also brings a bit more offense than Klukay, while Klukay is of course a much, much better defensive player.

Big advantage for Halifax here due to a large advantage offensively and probably at least a slight advantage defensively. Much of the depth scoring to offset the Lions top line will hopefully come from this line.

Dave Keon on a 3rd line is definitely ridiculous. He's definitely the best offensive player on our 3rd lines, but are we really sure he's the best defensive player? I plead a bit of ignorance on Keon as an overall player, but reading through the bio you linked, I don't see what makes him "the best." Joe Klukay was a known shutdown forward, and while he obviously gives way to Keon offensively, why is he that much more than Keon defensively? Same goes for Luce vs. Rousseau, while we're at it. Amonte is probably the weakest here defensively, but he's not out of place, and is arguably at least as good an offensive player as Bobby Rousseau.

I'll concede the overall advantage to Halifax, but only because they're stronger offensively. West Island went for a more traditional shutdown line here, but has 3 strong skaters and forecheckers on this line who could be counter-attack threats.

Fourth Lines:
Patrick has been slotted in for Liba as Halifax will need to squeeze out as much offense as possible from the bottom six and second pp unit. Patrick has good enough vsX numbers to be a top 6 winger in this draft (10 year: 67.9 / 7 year: 79.4), better offensive numbers than both of West Island's second line wingers. Patrick will be skating with a strong ES producer and two way player in Ellis, while both flank Goring who has surprisingly solid vsX scores (10 yr: 61.4 / 7 year: 67.8) in addition to bringing a defensive game and intangibles. I think Patrick is insulated well enough with these two that this line can punish the Lions bottom 6 in this series, especially their fourth line.

Frankly, I think Halifax has the 3 best players on either 4th line, and another big advantage here.

Frankly, I disagree (obviously). First of all, I think that while Jamie Benn doesn't have the offensive resume of Patrick (though we can very soon add a 2nd in points and a 3rd in goals, 9th in assists), he's definitely a better overall player defensively, physically, and as a leader. While Goring is definitely a very good special teams player, Mackell has a stronger resume at ES (better postseason finishes, and even a 1 AST). You have the advantage at RW with Ellis over Gustafsson, but Gustafsson has 2 top 10's in Selke voting, as well as 2 top 10's in AST voting. The one knock my whole 4th line has is a lack of long careers for various reasons, but that doesn't make them worse players. This matchup is a wash, I'd argue, if not an edge for West Island.

First pairings:
Coffey is the best defenseman on either pairing, while Flaman is the worst (which is to be expected in a paring of #1 & #3 vs a #1 & #2). I'd say Halifax still gets the slight edge here as a result of having a better #1 defenseman who fits perfectly in to the playing style of the team, outweighing the negative having the lesser partner.

AST's // Norris record
PC: 4X 1st team, 4X 2nd team // 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 9
ZC: 3X 1st team, 4X 2nd team // 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8
RB: 1X 1st team, 3X 2nd team // 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 12
FF: No 1st team, 3X 2nd team // 3, 3, 3, 5, 5

Um, no. Nice try though. My 1st pairing is better, and you knew that would happen when you staggered your top 4 as you did. I like Flaman, and he was my first choice for my #3 spot, but let's not overlook that he's the clear #4 guy of these 4 just because Coffey "fits perfectly in to the playing style of the team." This is a big edge to West Island any way you want to slice it.

Second Pairings:
Again Halifax has the clear cut best player on either pairing in Reardon. I’m not even entirely sold on Patrick being better than Davydov in a vacuum, especially given his short career. Even if there was a gap, it certainly wouldn’t come close to offsetting Reardon (2X 1st team AS, 3X 2nd team AS) over Heller (1X 2nd team AS).

Huge advantage for Halifax here – hopefully the extra minutes the Citadels can give Reardon at even strength after shuffling the lineup can be a difference maker in this series. He’ll generally play with either Davydov or Ramsey, both of who are excellent fits with him.

I acknowledge that my 2nd pairing is a bit of a weak spot for me, but like you did with your top 4, I staggered my bottom 4. I think Patrick is still a #4 defensemen at this level, and Heller a #3, but both are near the bottom end of their respective categories. That said, what would you say if I told you Patrick and Heller both fit my team style perfectly? Does that make this any better? :laugh:

Nah, but I'll give you this one. The bad news is that this is probably Halifax's biggest advantage of the matchup.

Third Parings:
Both are solid enough, I can’t see there being a big difference maker here, maybe slight advantage for the Lions. The more Halifax can get Reardon out at even strength instead of Stackhouse, the better.

I wish I had time to get up a minute chart, but I intend to give my 3rd line some solid minutes at ES, because Schoenfeld is definitely a solid #4 being used on the bottom pairing. He's clearly better than Mike Ramsey. I'd also put Redden over Stackhouse. This is another solid edge for West Island.

Powerplay:
The Gretzky Conacher duo remains a lethal force on the PP, but I would contend that Halifax has the remaining 4 of the top 6 weapons on either PP (Makarov, Coffey, Bentley, Joliat), while Novy is a bit of a weak link. Slight advantage to West Island in first units thanks to Gretzky, but I don't think it's a significant gap.

With Patrick injected in to the lineup Halifax has a significantly better second powerplay unit. I think the gap in second units is bigger than the one in first units, which probably makes the PP units close to a wash, all things considered.

No real argument here, except to say that my 1st PP unit will be out there as much as possible. I wouldn't expect the 2nd unit to see much time at all (hopefully the first unit's strong enough to score before I need to cycle out).

Penalty Kill:
Advantage to Halifax on the forward units as they don't give up anything defensively while providing a much bigger shorthanded threat.

Slight advantage to West Island on the back end with Chara being the driving force.

I'd say the huge advantage for Halifax between the pipes with Sawchuk makes their overall PK unit more effective.

All 4 of my PK forwards were known for being speedy, strong forecheckers. I'd also note that being better offensively at ES doesn't always equal being a bigger shorthanded threat. Example: West Island's Fleming Mackell had more shorthanded points than Halifax's Dave Keon in the original 6 era: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32295815&postcount=231

Given West Island's advantage on D, I'd call the PK units a wash at best.

Halifax has the better coaching staff (who should be able to steer the players away from the distraction of Paulina Gretzky).

Not likely. I intend to have Paulina behind the bench at all times! :sarcasm:

Reasons West Island Can Win:
  • Our 3rd line can shutdown Halifax's 1st line much better than they can shutdown ours.
  • Halifax's best offensive forward (Makarov) will have to face Phillips, Klukay, Chara, and Schoenfeld most, if not all of the time.
  • Major wins over Halifax on the 1st line, the 1st pairing, and the 3rd pairing. Minor wins on the 2nd line, and 4th line.
  • Halifax's speed will not be a big factor, as West Island can match them in speed and skating ability throughout the lineup.
 
Last edited:

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
Halifax has a great set of point men on the power play, with tons of skill. But I wonder if they might be vulnerable to allowing shorthanded goals, considering they are using four forwards and a fourth forward (Paul Coffey).

If only West Island had the greatest shorthanded goal scorer of all time to put out against them. Now that would be something!
 

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