Forsberg and Jagr on the Flyers?

[Boxscore]

So I was reading the 1990 Hockey News Draft Preview the other day, and they had the prospects ranked. They had Jagr ranked 5th. Under the blurb it said, "Jagr could go higher. Bob Clarke believes Jagr is the best player in the draft, but he was recently fired by the Philadelphia Flyers. Could the Flyers still take Jagr with their pick? Or will they now go in a different direction?"

This got me thinking - for arguments sake, what if the Flyers drafted Jagr in 1990 with their 4th pick (instead of Ricci), and due to him and Forsberg looking like elite prospects, never pursued the Lindros trade? Or the Lindros trade fell through.

That means the Flyers would have still had a core of Recchi, Brind'Amour, Dineen, Duchense, Hextall, etc. with Jagr, Forsberg and Renberg ready to make the jump.

In a non-cap era, where the Flyers were always a power player with money, how do you see things going for them in the 90's and beyond, with Forsberg and Jagr as their two main superstars? Would a prime Forsberg centering a prime Jagr made them both better? Would the Flyers have Cups? What do you think?

Click to read more...

 

[K Fleur]

Isn’t the reason Jagr fell to #5 because he was actively telling every team but the Penguins that he had no interest in coming over to the NHL? Something to do with wanting to play with Lemieux.

 

[Boxscore]

Isn’t the reason Jagr fell to #5 because he was actively telling every team but the Penguins that he had no interest in coming over to the NHL? Something to do with wanting to play with Lemieux.

That was spin, from what I understand. Some teams backed off Jagr because they weren't sure if he would come over right away. In the book "Full Spectrum" about the Flyers, it was reported that the only reason the Flyers included Forsberg in the Lindros deal is because he told them he was waiting a year to come over. The Nordiques asked for Slava Butsayev instead of Forsberg and the Flyers said no, because they didn't want to wait on a player.

Seems like Russ Farwell and Jay Snider are the ones who passed on Jagr (for a Canadian kid in Ricci) even though Clarke wanted Jagr and said he was the best player in the draft, period. Also, Flyers Chief Euro Scout at the time, Inge Hammerstrom, begged them to take Forsberg. He was relentless and insisted Forsberg would be a franchise-changing player. When the Flyers included him in the deal for Lindros, Hammerstrom told them they made a massive mistake.

 

[IceManCat]

So I was reading the 1990 Hockey News Draft Preview the other day, and they had the prospects ranked. They had Jagr ranked 5th. Under the blurb it said, "Jagr could go higher. Bob Clarke believes Jagr is the best player in the draft, but he was recently fired by the Philadelphia Flyers. Could the Flyers still take Jagr with their pick? Or will they now go in a different direction?"

This got me thinking - for arguments sake, what if the Flyers drafted Jagr in 1990 with their 4th pick (instead of Ricci), and due to him and Forsberg looking like elite prospects, never pursued the Lindros trade? Or the Lindros trade fell through.

That means the Flyers would have still had a core of Recchi, Brind'Amour, Dineen, Duchense, Hextall, etc. with Jagr, Forsberg and Renberg ready to make the jump.

In a non-cap era, where the Flyers were always a power player with money, how do you see things going for them in the 90's and beyond, with Forsberg and Jagr as their two main superstars? Would a prime Forsberg centering a prime Jagr made them both better? Would the Flyers have Cups? What do you think?

Talk about extreme puck possession lol

 

[tony d]

Would have been nice to watch, still both guys are moreso playmakers, not sure how they would have worked together.

 

[Michael Farkas]

They would have just cycled the puck in the corner for 60 straight minutes, Forsberg periodically emerging to throw a no-look pass to the front for Jagr to score...

As someone who grew up worshiping Jagr, loving the Penguins and despising the Flyers...I wonder how my life would be different... *shudder* On second thought, I don't wish to think about that at all...

Mods: please delete this thread thx

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Very interesting what if here, I must admit.

Keep in mind that in this scenario, Lindros would have been a Ranger and they would still have had Messier, Graves, Zubov, Leetch, 1 of Richter/Vanbiesbrouck (the other was going to Quebec). And deeep pockets as well. That would have been a fearsome core built to win for most of the 90's.

Jagr was probably not getting the Flyers to the playoffs in 1991 or 1992. Maybe in 1993 and 1994 they are a 1st round and out team. The big question remains, who is their goalie during this time? Was a Hextall in his early-mid 30's someone who could win it all? (I doubt it). They still would have needed a goalie.

NJ still becomes a powerhouse in this scenario and probably still has a similar level of success in the next 10-15 years despite the 2 goliaths residing in their division.

Philly probably still does the Desjardins and Leclair for Recchi trade. Imagine Leclair-Forsberg-Jagr together. Holy.

I guess you can make the case that Jagr + a rookie Forsberg + the pieces they traded to Quebec still being in Philly swings the 1995 ECF Philly's way...but do then they beat Detroit in the Final? My guess is probably not. That Detroit team was stacked and if they had not faced the trapping and stifling Devils, would have probably been able to play their style.

In 1996, the Forsberg-Jagr Flyers probably beat the Panthers and there is no Jagr on the Pens in the ECF, so they are probably playing a Cup Final vs the Avs. Although one can argue the Lindros Rangers stand in their way in the East and may have beaten them in that ECF. The Avs take that one with the sizeable gap in net in my view, regardless of if it's Roy or Richter/Beezer. You have Sundin still in Quebec/Colorado in this scenario as the Rangers-Lindros trade did not feature a premium young C in it.

Flyers still get to the SCF in 1997 but I'm fairly sure no one was beating the Red Wings in 1997. Or 1998.

1999 was just Dallas' year, I don't think a Forsberg-Jagr Flyers team beats them.

The 2000 and 2001 Devils were amazing, they still get to the Final both years. Even if they don't, not sure Philly beats the Stars in the SCF or the Avs the following year.

By 2001 and 2002, Jagr's passion was starting to be questioned with all the gambling rumors and such. Forsberg was starting to be banged up too.

They could have made it to the Final in 2002 with what went down in the East, but that Red Wings team was just loaded.

2003 or 2004 was probably their best chance looking at it. They beat Anaheim or Calgary in the SCF. But do they get out of the East? The 2003 Senators should have made the Final, but Jeff Friesen happened. My guess is they lose to the 2004 Lighting, with their young stars and Khabibulin in net. So 2003 was probably their chance.

In short, I think they probably have 1 Cup somewhere - probably in 2003. It would have been viewed in a similar light to what the Capitals appear likely to do. Great core, iconic stars, etc finally getting it done far later than we expected it to happen.

Another angle is the Penguins might not even be in Pittsburgh with Ricci there instead of Jagr. Do they win the Cup in 1991 or 1992? Mario probably does not come back in 2000 since they would have probably been bottom feeders without Jagr by the late 90's-early 00's.

 

[sr edler]

Would have been nice to watch, still both guys are moreso playmakers, not sure how they would have worked together.

Jagr had years with 62, 54, 52, 47 (in 63 games), 44 and 42 (in 63 games) goals, and then 8 additional seasons with 30 or more goals. So he could score goals. Sure, some years he PP:ed with Lemieux, but he scored 32 in 48 (55 goal pace over 82) in 94–95 and won a Ross without Lemieux, so I'm sure him and Forsberg would have worked out quite nicely.

 

[Thenameless]

Another angle is the Penguins might not even be in Pittsburgh with Ricci there instead of Jagr. Do they win the Cup in 1991 or 1992? Mario probably does not come back in 2000 since they would have probably been bottom feeders without Jagr by the late 90's-early 00's.

The Penguins would have still won their two Stanley Cups in the early 90's. It was a very deep, very talented team and Jagr was not in his prime yet. The Penguins' fortunes ebb a lot more quickly in the mid 90's without Jagr though.

 

[FerrisRox]

Jagr was probably not getting the Flyers to the playoffs in 1991 or 1992. Maybe in 1993 and 1994 they are a 1st round and out team. The big question remains, who is their goalie during this time? Was a Hextall in his early-mid 30's someone who could win it all? (I doubt it). They still would have needed a goalie.

He wouldn't have been anywhere near his mid 30's. In 1993 Ron Hextall was 29 years old.

 

[Troubadour]

Spoiler: There would have been no Forberg-Jagr punch. Flyers would have ended up trading Jagr or Forsberg or maybe even both for Lindros anyway.

That's because Forsberg still stays in Sweden bulking up and building his confidence and Lindros is still looking for a way not to play in Quebec. And Philly are still obsessed with big, strong and violent chaps.

Depending on how much ice time Jagr gets early on, he may or may not do better than he did in Pittsburgh. If he plays better, a Lindros-Jagr punch is much more likely a scenario. Although it's quite possible Nordiques would have insisted on getting Jagr in the swap. In that case, Flyers end up with a couple of all-time great centers and Nordiques don't trade Sundin.

Now that would be interesting both ways.

Btw it's possible Penguins don't win the second cup without Jagr, if Lemieux still gets injured.

EDIT: If, against all odds, Jagr and Forsberg still end up playing for Flyers and on the same line, they form a crazy duo. They wouldn't be circling much, especially early on. That's because NHL is still very offensive and they are both young, fast and hungry for more.

It's pretty likely Forsberg ends up a much more proficient, confident and productive shooter / scorer (Jagr passes back) and - if they play together on PP - Jagr breaks Bossy's record in 92/93.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

He wouldn't have been anywhere near his mid 30's. In 1993 Ron Hextall was 29 years old.

There is no Forsberg in North America until 1995, when Hextall turned 31 that May. So for the bulk of the Forsberg-Jagr run, Hextall is in his mid 30's.