For all our carping, Pens are doing very well statistically. Again. Worry you?

[Jaded-Fan]

For how much we *****, and how many legitimate issues we all see, and talk to death, I bet most here would be surprised at the actual stats.

4th least goals allowed so far this year.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSAAAll&sort=goalsAgainst&viewName=goalsAgainst

4th most goals scored:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSAAAll&sort=goals&viewName=goalsFor

The idea for this thread is the Chicago scored 200 goals, woo hoo thread on the main board. I looked, they have also given up more goals than 15 other teams this year. And yet I would put money on Chicago's chances over ours any day of the week and twice Sunday.

What gives with this team doing so well on paper? And this is not a new story, but one we have seen in a few prior years.

Click to read more...

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

How are our stats in division? Because the Metro is like 4 rungs below the second worst division in hockey.

 

[BumFortyOne]

Obviously, this team needs some more depth at forward and is carrying some dead-weight on the roster that hopefully is pruned come offseason. But otherwise I'm not sure what more people want out of the regular season.

This team is clearly the class of the East again, and really a few minor pickups at the deadline should make this team a good bet to make the Cup Finals. We've seen how those expectations have played out the past couple seasons, but as long as Crosby and Malkin are here and healthy I'll take this team's chances over any other in the East.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The dead weight also happen to be the GM and Coach's type of guys, so while we hope they cut them, they won't.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think the team's standing in the offensive category is misleading a bit in terms of four guys (five if you include Jokinen) accounting for an immense portion of that offense. With Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, and Neal, you're always going to be in the top 10, top 5 in offense in the league because they just score so much. But where I think the other elite teams pull away from the Pens is the depth. They may not match the Pens' top end, but they're more dangerous throughout the lineup on any given night.

Defensively, the team as a whole seems to give up less this year. Maybe it's due to it "collapsing" in front of our goal more often, so the Pens aren't giving up as many goals when they scramble in their own zone like in previous years. They still do have a tendency to struggle with a decent cycle game by the opposition. I don't know whether that's because the wingers don't do their job covering the pinching point man, or the defense go chasing too much. But when teams establish a strong cycle game, the Pens have a tendency to always leave one guy open in the worst possible spot.

In any case, the only thing I find "troubling" is the lack of depth up front and, of course, the topic some folks don't want touched upon -- Bylsma's refusal to change his management of who plays and who doesn't. Both of those, IMO, will hurt this club come playoff time if neither is addressed.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

We can be regular season juggernauts all we want but unless we win the Cup it'll mean **** all.

We've seen this same song and dance for years now where we are great in the regular season under Bylsma only to **** the bed come playoff time.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

We can be regular season juggernauts all we want but unless we win the Cup it'll mean **** all.

We've seen this same song and dance for years now where we are great in the regular season under Bylsma only to **** the bed come playoff time.

Yeah, I've pointed out people constantly complaining about ridiculous things but the fact is people aren't going to be happy until we win another cup. Can't sit here and say this year is a must win because if we lose this year then win back to back cups the following years then we'd all be happy. But bottom line everyone will be even more miserable next season if we don't win it all . And that will continue each year we don't.

****** thing is , the FO knew we'd eventually be in cap trouble. And our bottom six especially would see the affect of it. So to me that's a huge reason Shero went all in last year. We didn't get anything out of it, yet gave up quality assets. Nothing wrong with what Ray did, just saying I think that's why. So now we are in a position where we have less assets ( which not only means less trades but have to be careful with ones we have) and affected big time by the cap. Shero is going to have to be creative. But not only that our players have to step up. Still haven't seen that hunger I saw in both 08 and 09. We will see if this postseason is different. Feel like I've been saying that every year.

 

[cygnus47]

1) Weak division/conference
2) Special teams
3) 5 on 5 play

Our 5 on 5 play is only 10th in the league. The 4 consensus biggest threats to a stanley cup ahead of us (Boston, Chicago, St Louis, Anaheim) are the top 4 teams at that stat. 5 on 5 we're still barely above even in spite of playing in the weaker conference. That means that for the majority of each game, we're NOT dominating and we don't pass the eye test. Our wins and goal differential is basically on the back of not letting in too many goals and being the top of both special teams (one of which we have a ridiculous overload of talent on).

That said, there are a lot of positive signs. Currently, the Crosby line is stuck checking the top lines against most teams. Our bottom 6 on a good night is even. If we can make a good pickup at the deadline and get healthy, our lineup balance will be better than anyone bar St Louis and Chicago and that will improve our play 5 on 5. Our defensive play is the best its been in a long time and our possession stats were great until the injuries kept piling up. If we can round into form at the right time, we're as good a chance as anyone except St Louis, and they have to get through 3 other teams before there's even a chance of playing us.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, I've pointed out people constantly complaining about ridiculous things but the fact is people aren't going to be happy until we win another cup. Can't sit here and say this year is a must win because if we lose this year then win back to back cups the following years then we'd all be happy. But bottom line everyone will be even more miserable next season if we don't win it all . And that will continue each year we don't.

****** thing is , the FO knew we'd eventually be in cap trouble. And our bottom six especially would see the affect of it. So to me that's a huge reason Shero went all in last year. We didn't get anything out of it, yet gave up quality assets. Nothing wrong with what Ray did, just saying I think that's why. So now we are in a position where we have less assets ( which not only means less trades but have to be careful with ones we have) and affected big time by the cap. Shero is going to have to be creative. But not only that our players have to step up. Still haven't seen that hunger I saw in both 08 and 09. We will see if this postseason is different. Feel like I've been saying that every year.

I'll take compete-- truly compete-- for a cup.

To win a cup, you need luck. The 2008 Pens were a better team from top to bottom, but Malkin was hurt and Datsyuk was healthy. If the 2009 Pens had met Detroit under similar circumstances, I suspect they'd have lost. Better still, if the 2009 Pens had had to beat a defensive team like the 2008 Rangers (or the 2009 Bruins or Devils), then they might not have reached the finals.

Even I recognize that there are things beyond a team's control. If the Pens had lost to the Bruins where you saw adjustments, Iginla used somewhere where he might have been useful, stuff like that, then I would've been disappointed but in more practical moments understanding.

It's that the Pens really haven't competed for a cup since 2009 that bugs me.

 

[wolffy66]

I think we are at the point that most of us are skeptical of how the regular performance will translate into the playoffs.

MAF can do whatever and nobody is gonna buy it until he does it the playoffs.
The offense can produce but until they perform against a really good defensive team, in the playoffs, people are gonna have their doubts.

 

[UnrealMachine]

For how much we *****, and how many legitimate issues we all see, and talk to death, I bet most here would be surprised at the actual stats.

4th least goals allowed so far this year.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSAAAll&sort=goalsAgainst&viewName=goalsAgainst

4th most goals scored:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSAAAll&sort=goals&viewName=goalsFor

The idea for this thread is the Chicago scored 200 goals, woo hoo thread on the main board. I looked, they have also given up more goals than 15 other teams this year. And yet I would put money on Chicago's chances over ours any day of the week and twice Sunday.

What gives with this team doing so well on paper? And this is not a new story, but one we have seen in a few prior years.

As someone else pointed out, this is overwhelmingly due to our top PP and PK. At ES, the Pens are only around league average, but that is due mostly to our absolutely abysmal bottom 6. ES goaltending is not too impressive either as Fleury has among the lowest 5 on 5 SV% in the league (only 2 or 3 starting goalies are lower).

PP and PK conversion rates often don't carry over into the playoffs. The last two playoffs were good indicators of that for the Pens when they went from among the best in the league to worst ever against the Flyers and last season were 25th in the regular season but very good in the playoffs. Either way, the Pens will have to play much better at ES to have success in the playoffs. Can't expect them to maintain both the top PP and top PK, although that would be very nice if they could.

 

[IcedCapp]

What's our GF/60 when Crosby and Malkin aren't on the ice?

Obviously you should rely on your best players, but no team in the league relies as much on two players as the Penguins.

And in the playoffs, when you've trimmed the bad and average defenses away, every team the Penguins face will have the required combination of checking forwards and defensive dmen to blanket both.

This is not a criticism or insult to Crosby and Malkin. You have to have depth to win in the playoffs. You need 4 lines. The Penguins "roll" four lines, but that's more due to stubbornness than merit.

I do like that they show flashes of being committed to more of a defensive game. That's good.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

What's our GF/60 when Crosby and Malkin aren't on the ice?

Obviously you should rely on your best players, but no team in the league relies as much on two players as the Penguins.

And in the playoffs, when you've trimmed the bad and average defenses away, every team the Penguins face will have the required combination of checking forwards and defensive dmen to blanket both.

This is not a criticism or insult to Crosby and Malkin. You have to have depth to win in the playoffs. You need 4 lines. The Penguins "roll" four lines, but that's more due to stubbornness than merit.

I do like that they show flashes of being committed to more of a defensive game. That's good.

That's true and it showed in the Bruins series. The Hawks can count on their 3rd line, and that 3rd line is the one that hurt the Bruins the most last year in the Finals. We have a solid player in Sutter and we all know and believe Dupuis should be one of his wingers, that would make us dangerous up front with 3 balanced lines. Now Dupuis is gone for the year and besides of course getting another top winger for Sid, Shero needs to address that 3rd line the most. When we won our Cup, we were much more balanced as well. Good couple of role players who can score is what Ray should look for

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Is it supposed to be a revelation that the Pens rely on two players more than any team in the league?

They're the best players in the league and get paid like it, and the NHL is a capped league. If we had 4 mil less invested in our top 2 players, like Chicago does, then I'm sure we could rely more on depth too.

 

[Tender Rip]

How are our stats in division? Because the Metro is like 4 rungs below the second worst division in hockey.

The Metro has more points on average than the 'Atlantic', and if you delete the Isles from the conversation (1-7 vs. 1-7), it is currently on par with the Pacific.

The difference is that there are no other elite teams in the Metro, but most teams there had horrific starts and much more severe injury issues than other divisions. The East has been catching up big time in latter weeks, and the Metro more so, but we always knew that in terms of genuine contenders, the West had a handful and the East only two.

Ultimately, one cannot glean misanthropy from the stats. Just like you couldn't in latter seasons. It is having a tried and tested knowledge of what our coach will do once push comes to shove, and noticing that our relative problems remain the same... that causes frustration, because with the assets we have we could be so, so good with only a few changes made.

 

[IHWR]

The Pens are also 11-4-1 vs the West this season. Their team stats do look pretty great though, it's just whether or not they can carry that style through the playoffs.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The Pens are also 11-4-1 vs the West this season. Their team stats do look pretty great though, it's just whether or not they can carry that style through the playoffs.

I was about to point that out.

The Pens record against the west, not just this year but well over 70% of wins since 2006 I believe, well over 100 games, means that supposedly feasting on the supposedly weak teams, whether in our division or conference, has zero to do with their record.

This year or previous years.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I think it's pretty telling what has happened lately when Crosby/Malkin combine for only 1-2 points. We struggle to win hockey games. It's not really rocket science, though.

I just think we are really, really ripe for an upset again in Round 1 if a team has time to prepare for us in advance and find a way to shut them down (again).

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I think it's pretty telling what has happened lately when Crosby/Malkin combine for only 1-2 points. We struggle to win hockey games. It's not really rocket science, though.

I just think we are really, really ripe for an upset again in Round 1 if a team has time to prepare for us in advance and find a way to shut them down (again).

It is that area where losing the Matt Cookes of the world is killing us. Lost in what a dick he could be at times was how good a secondary scorer he could be. You could count on him to put in some goals, so eliminating Crosby and Malkin would not eliminate the Pens. Who do the Pens have who can step up like that? Not many. A streaky JJ. Neal relies on Malkin, so shut Malkin down and you can blunt Neal, Kunitz? The same as Neal, but with Crosby. After that the pickings get slim. In fact all the leading scorers after are defensemen.

http://penguins.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20132014&srt=p

If shutting down Malkin blunts Neal imagine what it does for scoring from the defense.

The Pens really have nobody who can realistically step up and pot a couple if you shut Malkin and Crosby down.

 

[stefanh]

We just arent getting any offense from the bottom 6. The only players that have created some from the bottom 6 this season is Sutter and Vitale and with Vitale out that's down to one player. Maybe forward depth is the way to go here... i know we've had lots of injuries and Bennett might be some help as well but it does not look great.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

We just arent getting any offense from the bottom 6. The only players that have created some from the bottom 6 this season is Sutter and Vitale and with Vitale out that's down to one player. Maybe forward depth is the way to go here... i know we've had lots of injuries and Bennett might be some help as well but it does not look great.

It is not just the bottom six scoring, but basically two of the top six.

Crosby, Malkin, Neal and Kunitz are producing.

JJ as well, but you will find him in the top six or bottom six, so his production is either top six or bottom six. Surprisingly he is producing virtually the same as Neal in the same number of games.

http://penguins.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20132014&srt=p

Which to be honest argues for us signing him in the offseason if he would sign reasonably. I know that he is streaky, but we are not relying on him game to game to score, he is secondary scoring, so sign him on the cheap and take what you get from him.

But I digress.

The point is that basically we only have four legitimate top six players with defined roles. One who fills in everywhere who produces. And a whole lot of nothing.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Course, when the coach plays Brian Gibbons just 10 minutes, less than Kobasew and Glass, there's only so much improvement that is possible in either the top 6 or bottom 6.

 

[IHWR]

Course, when the coach plays Brian Gibbons just 10 minutes, less than Kobasew and Glass, there's only so much improvement that is possible in either the top 6 or bottom 6.

Not to be an idiot or anything but didn't the Pens win last night? I'm not crazy about the system the coaching staff is using either but they're proving it works pretty consistently.

 

[wgknestrick]

Good thing the playoffs are nothing but special teams, and a chance for our team to shine....

This team is in BIG trouble without an overhaul of the bottom 6,

If this team still has Orpik, Adams, Pyatt, Kobasew, and Engo in it's starting lineup, we are lucky to win a series. We need 4 scoring lines.

Getting BB, Megna and Vitale back in the lineup will help a lot, but who has confidence that will happen (without sending Gibbons down)?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Just for ***** and Giggles I looked up some of the top western teams to see how their secondary scoring from forwards was. I defined it as the six forwards after the top six forward scorers on their teams.

Ducks:
22, 21, 21, 20, 16, 15 = 115 goals

http://ducks.nhl.com/club/stats.htm

Blues:
24, 21, 17, 12, 11, 11 = 96 goals
http://espn.go.com/nhl/team/stats/_/name/stl/st-louis-blues

Chicago:
24, 21, 17, 12, 11, 11 = 96 goals
http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/stats.htm


Penguins:
20 (Dupuis), 18, 13, 11, 8, 7 = 77 goals
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20132014&srt=p

Penguins (without Dupuis who is done for year):
18, 13, 11, 8, 7, 6 = 63 goals
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20132014&srt=p

Now the results are slightly skewed because losing Dupuis for the year means someone would have had those top line minutes if he had not been there.

But still, the results are striking when you add it all up.