Flyers Defense

[Crescent Street]

I wouldn't be too quick to say the Flyers have a bottom 10 defense. Things change quickly in the NHL and how a strong a defensive unit is often based on the system. It takes time to adjust to a system, and for the first time in years the Flyers are trying to implement one. The jury is still out on Berube, but the individual play of defenseman improved under his watch last season (save for Grossmann, but that's clearly a matter of injury). We shall see if that trend continues. Not saying the Flyers defense is anything spectacular, but I think the belief that our defense is one of the worst in the league is misconceived.

Biggest understatement of the thread.

 

[FlyTimmo]

Philadelphia: Coburn, Streit, MacDonald, Schenn, Grossmann, Del Zotto, Schultz
Washington: Carlson, Alzner, Green, Niskanen, Orpik, Orlov, Erskine
Vancouver: Hamhuis, Bieksa, Tanev, Edler, Sbisa, Weber, Corrado
Colorado: Johnson, Stuart, Hejda, Wilson, Elliott, Holden, Barrie
New Jersey: Salvador, Greene, Zidlicky, Larsson, Merrill, Harrold, Gelinas
Carolina: Faulk, Liles, Hainsey, Sekera, Harrison, Gleason, Murphy
Detroit: Kronwall, Ericsson, Quincey, Kindl, Smith, Lashoff, Dekeyser
Dallas: Gonchar, Goligoski, Daley, Benn, Connauton, Dillion, Nemeth
Florida: Campbell, Kulikov, Mitchell, Gudbranson, Petrovic, Olsen, Robak
Edmonton: Nikitin, Fayne, Ference, Petry, Aulie, Marincin, Schultz
NY Islanders: Hamonic, da Haan, Visnovsky, Carkner, Donovan, Strait, Hickey
Buffalo: Myers, Meszaros, Gorges, Weber, Ristolainen, McCabe, Benoit
Ottawa: Karlsson, Methot, Cowen, Phillips, Wiercioch, Ceci, Gryba
Calgary: Giordano, Wideman, Smid, Engelland, Russell, Brodie

Bolded the ones I think are better than the Flyers.

The only teams that I believe have a worse defense that the Flyers are: NYI, Edmonton, Florida, and Buffalo.

 

[Curufinwe]

Dallas has a weak defense. Gonchar is a ghost.

 

[Appleyard]

Bolded the ones I think are better than the Flyers.

The only teams that I believe have a worse defense that the Flyers are: NYI, Edmonton, Florida, and Buffalo.

Carolina, NYI, Edmonton, Florida, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Calgary, NJ and Dallas man for man are worse on paper IMO.

Ottawa, Washington and Vancouver are definitely better on paper.

Colorado and Detroit are pretty even on paper with us... both have better #1s, but we arguably have better depth. When you look at bottom 2 pairings on paper around the league ours looks top 1/2 of the league... the lack of a #1 is what lets it down heavily.

But paper means nothing... NJ allow few goals most years, even though on paper it does not look a great D, but a lot is down to Greene being underrated as hell and the system. Ottawa and Torontos D looks average on paper at worse but they conceded ****tonnes of goals last year.

 

[Psuhockey]

Carolina, NYI, Edmonton, Florida, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Calgary, NJ and Dallas man for man are worse on paper IMO.

Ottawa, Washington and Vancouver are definitely better on paper.

Colorado and Detroit are pretty even on paper with us... both have better #1s, but we arguably have better depth. When you look at bottom 2 pairings on paper around the league ours looks top 1/2 of the league... the lack of a #1 is what lets it down heavily.

But paper means nothing... NJ allow few goals most years, even though on paper it does not look a great D, but a lot is down to Greene being underrated as hell and the system. Ottawa and Torontos D looks average on paper at worse but they conceded ****tonnes of goals last year.

A lot of those teams you cited as being worse on paper are young with tremendous upside. Calgary, Edmonton, and Dallas are the three without the top notch prospects in the lineup. What makes the Flyers defensive outlook bleak for the season is that everyone of them are at the point in their career in which they are what they are and in the case of Streit, declining. Del Zotto may be a wildcard but that's it. L. Schenn is young but will be entering his 7th season. He play still resembles much of what he shown in Toronto.

So how is a defense that was run over for much of the Rangers series going to significantly improve when they are all long time NHL veterans? As you said if the forwards can play a disciplined tight checking game like New Jersey they can mask the talent issue but do you believe the Flyers forwards are capable of playing that way with any consistency?

 

[Adam Warlock]

Coburn really needs to step up now that Kimmo is gone. He is at prime age for a D man and he has all the tools needed to be "the guy" for this defense. I am not saying he needs to be a Norris candidate...just be consistent and be a leader back there. I would also like to see more the Luke Schenn we saw in the playoffs.

The key to this teams success is their team defense. It definitely improved under Berube...but it needs to continue to. They might not be the most talented D but if they can play as a unit, know their roles, and get some help from the forwards/Mason...I think theyll be ok.

 

[Tripod]

I personally would push to see if Schenn can handle a bigger role. I would pair him with Coburn and see if they can truly become a shutdown pair. Have them play with Couts a lot against teams 1st lines.

Then have Streit and MacD as a well balanced pair to play with our top lines. Hopefully we spend most f the time is the O Zone.

And by default, that leaves MDZ and Grossmann. We know Grossmann will stay back defensively when MDZ roams a bit.

In the end, we all know that this is a year where the goal is to try and make the playoffs. Unless a deal comes along for a #1, we are not a contender. But we will be competitive. And in the playoffs, anything can happen. Imagine if Lundquist got injured instead of Mason. Chances are we beat them. Then we match up well against Pitt and possibly win. And then against Mtl, I like our chances. All the sudden, it's not doom and gloom.

In the end, there is very little seperating a lot of teams...and we are in that group.

But remember, we started 3-9 last year. So that means we were 39-21-10 the rest of the way. That is a 103 point pace over a whole season. Not too shabby for a team with crappy defense, a goalie who will suck again and a F group that has 2 cap dumps in Vinny and Umberger.

 

[Appleyard]

A lot of those teams you cited as being worse on paper are young with tremendous upside. Calgary, Edmonton, and Dallas are the three without the top notch prospects in the lineup. What makes the Flyers defensive outlook bleak for the season is that everyone of them are at the point in their career in which they are what they are and in the case of Streit, declining. Del Zotto may be a wildcard but that's it. L. Schenn is young but will be entering his 7th season. He play still resembles much of what he shown in Toronto.

So how is a defense that was run over for much of the Rangers series going to significantly improve when they are all long time NHL veterans? As you said if the forwards can play a disciplined tight checking game like New Jersey they can mask the talent issue but do you believe the Flyers forwards are capable of playing that way with any consistency?

It is not going to get that much better in the short term is the answer... but they have the capability to be a slightly below average D for the next 3 years that is capable of getting into the playoffs, effectively a holding pattern. And by that time some of our great young D prospects should be playing in the NHL.

 

[Embiid]

Coburn really needs to step up now that Kimmo is gone. He is at prime age for a D man and he has all the tools needed to be "the guy" for this defense. I am not saying he needs to be a Norris candidate...just be consistent and be a leader back there. I would also like to see more the Luke Schenn we saw in the playoffs.

The key to this teams success is their team defense. It definitely improved under Berube...but it needs to continue to. They might not be the most talented D but if they can play as a unit, know their roles, and get some help from the forwards/Mason...I think theyll be ok.

Coburn didn't "step up" when Pronger went down and it is likely he won't with Timonen's unfortunate departure. Once again.. it is not Coburn's fault the situation around him is not ideal and that he has to be thrust into a more prominant role again which he has shown he doesn't handle well. Doesn't mean he isn't still a good D man or important to the team...just that people can't expect him to necessarly be a true number 1 D man..because he is not...at least not consistently. I still expect people to rain dung on him regardless of this salient point...

As far as L Schenn...yeah he played well against the Rangers but I saw a stat that showed he played sheltered minutes against lesser competition/matchups when out there. Considering everybody is going to have to pick up the slack for Timonen...we may not see the same level of "effectiveness" we saw against the Rangers which was deceiving.

 

[phil162888]

I think that's a bit harsh. Defenseman that can play 15+ minutes a night, even if one-dimensional, certainly aren't #6 defenseman. Name me some 40-50 point defenseman that are considered #4s - even if they are a pylon on D, which Streit isn't. He's definitely average at worst, and pretty slick most times. Not as effective as Timonen who's a rock, but passable. And Coburn is definitely a #2.

The real point is a #1 defenseman, even if his "score" is a one, impacts a game more than that - he lets the other defenseman have the exact same effect (i.e., play above their "rating".) That is, a lot of teams pair a #1 with a #4, and that pairing is still supremely successful. This allows your "#2" and "#3" to play together, making that pairing also "above" their ratings. Their impact is much more than the number. Which is why the Flyers individually have an "ok" group of D, but there's nobody to elevate them to make them better than what they are.

All in all, I'd say the Flyers are at:

Coburn: #2
Streit: #3
MacDonald: #4
L. Schenn: #5
Grossmann: #4
Del Zotto: #6

25 right now. That's being somewhat conservative on Luke Schenn (I don't know the hate, he's not top pairing, but he's not bottom pairing either). MDZ may be a 6, he's an unknown.

Just my thoughts.

This is a hell of a lot better then the first assessment. You could give a good argument Mcdonald is a#3 and Schenn a 4/5. Del Zotto is the mystery piece. He will end up being a steal or out of the league for good.

 

[beetee15]

why so much Luke Schenn hate on HF? honestly, he's still young and I thought he had a great second half/first round.. Berube is stressing conditioning this year, and I think you may see Luke in his best playing shape.

 

[tymed]

why so much Luke Schenn hate on HF? honestly, he's still young and I thought he had a great second half/first round.. Berube is stressing conditioning this year, and I think you may see Luke in his best playing shape.

I've definitely been looking forward to his 14'15 campaign for a long time because he was out of skating shape and it was a tough task mid season for him to make up for it but berube sat him for it and let him know what the deal was so i've been looking forward to the offseason for him a while.... i wasnt really impressed with him last year but i think it's been made clear and specifically to him, and i think he responds well. heres to hoping so anyways but i do see it happening. i love luke but if he doesnt turn his skating up a notch or two over the next year or two then he can hike it.

 

[Psuhockey]

why so much Luke Schenn hate on HF? honestly, he's still young and I thought he had a great second half/first round.. Berube is stressing conditioning this year, and I think you may see Luke in his best playing shape.

When the Flyers traded for him, he was Toronto's 6th defenseman averaging about 16 minutes a night and was healthy scratched a couple of games. Last season for the Flyers, he was the 6th defenseman averaging about 16 minutes a night and was healthy scratched a couple of games. That is what he has been for two out of the last 3 season which were his 4th and 6th year in the league. The in between season where he played well he was paired with Timonen for most of it and later a couple of phantoms when the games meant nothing cause the Flyers were out of it in a strike shortened season that started in February. Not sure what you can take out of such a weird season. If Grossmann doesn't get hurt, he would have been the 6th defenseman as far as ice time in last years playoffs where he got an extra minute to keep Gill and Gustafsson off the ice. So I don't see much progress in his game.

Toss in the fact that a cap strapped team is paying their 6th defenseman $3.5 mil a year and cost a 1st liner winger to get, there is going to be some hate.

 

[UKFlyers]

A lot of those teams you cited as being worse on paper are young with tremendous upside. Calgary, Edmonton, and Dallas are the three without the top notch prospects in the lineup. What makes the Flyers defensive outlook bleak for the season is that everyone of them are at the point in their career in which they are what they are and in the case of Streit, declining. Del Zotto may be a wildcard but that's it. L. Schenn is young but will be entering his 7th season. He play still resembles much of what he shown in Toronto.

So how is a defense that was run over for much of the Rangers series going to significantly improve when they are all long time NHL veterans? As you said if the forwards can play a disciplined tight checking game like New Jersey they can mask the talent issue but do you believe the Flyers forwards are capable of playing that way with any consistency?

Streit may be on the wrong side of 35, but I don't see a player who's declining. Whereas most declining players would struggle in the second half of the season, his play picked up and he ended the season strongly. He was a late starter in the league so should be able to play at a high level longer. I'm expecting improvement from him next year when he gets a role on the 1st PP.

I'd expect that the defence will struggle again in the Playoffs, but they should be fine in the regular season.

 

[KaraLupin]

If only we had got Weber.

Or Hamhuis.

 

[thedjpd]

Streit may be on the wrong side of 35, but I don't see a player who's declining. Whereas most declining players would struggle in the second half of the season, his play picked up and he ended the season strongly. He was a late starter in the league so should be able to play at a high level longer. I'm expecting improvement from him next year when he gets a role on the 1st PP.

I'd expect that the defence will struggle again in the Playoffs, but they should be fine in the regular season.

Streit used to be a 1 dimensional d-man - offense only a la M. A . Bergeron - but developed in into a #1 two way threat on the Island during his early 30s. His only challenge now is his age, not talent. He's only been in around 500 NHL games, as mentioned.

Him and Timonen are exactly flipped. Timonen always makes the smart, safe play on O to protect his D, but the result is he gets less points, but is a rock defensively because he's always in position. Streit takes the more riskier playmaking path from D to O, and ends up producing more but is less solid defensively.

I think Streit will be a 50 point d-man this year, with solid D (not spectacular), but that is definitely a #1. I think he'll do well with Coburn.

 

[renberg]

The Flyers defense will probably be in a state of flux up until the trading deadline. It wouldn't surprise me to see two or possibly three of the "top six" Flyers defense go in trades before then. Teams will see what they have and need. If they need a defenseman, they know that Hextall has them and will be willing to deal. The beauty of it for the Flyers is that with they have in the A, the Flyers can afford to move a Schenn, Grossmann, MDZ, etc. and move up an Alt, Ghost, or Hagg with no real drop off in play.