Fleury-Ward

[Cropduster]

Hou much better will Marc Andre-Fleury be than Cam Ward? Will he be better?

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[tom_servo]

Approximately 48% better.

 

[Disco Volante]

Approximately 48% better.

I'm not really good in math, does that make Fleury 148% of what Ward is or 192% of what Ward is? I would tend to say the latter.

 

[Diaboli]

I'm not really good in math, does that make Fleury 148% of what Ward is or 192% of what Ward is? I would tend to say the latter.

I would say 148% 'cos if he is 48% better, than that is just added to the starting point of 100%... I think

 

[Disco Volante]

I would say 148% 'cos if he is 48% better, than that is just added to the starting point of 100%... I think

Yes but if Fleury is the said 100% mark, that leaves Ward at the 52% of Fleury mark and that makes Fleury 192% of what Ward is. I suppose the question is : Is Fleury 48% of how good Ward is better than Ward or is Fleury 48% of how good Fleury is better than Ward?

As I said, even tho I'm not a Fleury fan, I believe the latter to be more of a correct approximation, but it's certainly a matter worth discussing.

 

[dancingtree]

Ward is having a great year in the AHL and will be a solid NHL goalie, but Fleury is a step above. You don't become the overall #1 pick without having amazing skills. DiPietro (another overall #1) stuggled for a while too. Fleury will probably have a much better NHL career than Ward.

 

[KILLger]

Fleury will play for an offensive first team while Ward will play for a tight defensive one. I'd say Ward will have the better stats and that he's pretty much on par with Fleury, skill-wise.

 

[HuskyFlames]

Ward is having a great year in the AHL and will be a solid NHL goalie, but Fleury is a step above. You don't become the overall #1 pick without having amazing skills. DiPietro (another overall #1) stuggled for a while too. Fleury will probably have a much better NHL career than Ward.

Fluery mayeb ahd better skills when drafted but Ward has developed alot more than Fluery since being drafted and I would say the gap between them skill wise, is margin at best now.

 

[bruins4777*]

Fluery mayeb ahd better skills when drafted but Ward has developed alot more than Fluery since being drafted and I would say the gap between them skill wise, is margin at best now.

No way. Ward is better techinically, mentally, and most of those "intangible" traits. But fleury's skills outweight ward's by a nice deal.

Fleury's incredible reflexes, skating, and all those physical traits are incredibly rare in a goaltender. What ward has is a nice set of reflexes and that "sense" for the game, but his actual physical attributes aren't close to fleury really at all. Outside of reflexes, but even then fleury has the best reflexes of any goaltending prospect. Even better than lehtonen's.

Right now in terms of development ward is ahead of fleury, but overall in terms of who is the better prospect it goes to fleury due to his incredible potential. Fleury has the potential to do things no other goalie outside of lehtonen can do. Ward will be a solid solid solid and a great possibly even vezina winning goaltender, but at ward's best he will not be as good as fleury at his best.

In the NHL fleury will always be an all-star at his peak and be a top 3 or 5 goaltender every year. While ward will maintain a top 10 or so goaltender who still puts up above average stats.

 

[HuskyFlames]

Let me guess, your friends also drive down to watch Ward because you seem to know it all about every player. While I have not watched him, I have followed closely between Ward and Krahn because of the Lowell affiliation. There was also a reason why Ward was taken in the 1st round and his skills have improve greatly since being a late 1st round draft pick. Fluery has marginally developed, while Ward has improved a ton. The difference between the two right now is marginal at best. Does Fluery have more potenial? Yes, but that is based on draft rating. Ward's play is easily at Fluery's level, if not better right now in this time of their developments. Do I care, Fluery was drafted #1? Nope. Unless, he starts improving and dominating like a #1 should, I could give a rat's ass about draft spot. Are you going to tell Brodeur he wouldn't amount to much because he was a late 1st round draft pick? Or Hasek because he was drafted in the 10th round. Ward has improved every season since the draft and if he continues to improve he can be much more than a top 10 goalie, just like the many top 5 goalies there WERE NOT #1 picks but much later picks.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

bruins4777 has expressed his dislike for Fleury before. So don't assume he has a bias for Fleury. It's a bias against him. That makes the praise of his skills worth all the more.

To say Ward is just about as skilled as Fleury is ridiculous. You can say he's more technically sound, better suited mentally, and I have no problem with that. I haven't seen enough of Ward to formulate an opinion on those aspects. Just don't say he's just as skilled. Fleury has the fastest reflexes I have EVER seen in a goalie.

Patrick, how much have you followed the WBS Pens? Enough to form your conjecture that Fleury has 'marginally developed', I hope.

 

[bleedgreen]

ive watched both play and even though im a canes fan, i think fluery is the more natural and skilled goalie. i think ward looks more professional and composed, fluery looks more athletic and reflex oriented. having said that, which one will be the bigger winner? the team in front will reflect that in the end - ward can have just as great a pro career as fluery.i suspect we will see fluery on the highlights show more often. i agree with the assessment earlier that the ward will likely play behind a more two way defensive team, regardless of lavi's aggresive approach the canes always tend to more defensive in nature. the pens tend to be more open and exciting - and that will most likely lead to lots of opportunites for fluery to make the highlight reel.

its easy to say fluery will be the more talented one, but i think ward is the more composed one - and its impossible to say which will have the better pro career. it may be impossible even after their careers are over.

 

[bruins4777*]

Let me guess, your friends also drive down to watch Ward because you seem to know it all about every player. While I have not watched him, I have followed closely between Ward and Krahn because of the Lowell affiliation. There was also a reason why Ward was taken in the 1st round and his skills have improve greatly since being a late 1st round draft pick. Fluery has marginally developed, while Ward has improved a ton. The difference between the two right now is marginal at best. Does Fluery have more potenial? Yes, but that is based on draft rating. Ward's play is easily at Fluery's level, if not better right now in this time of their developments. Do I care, Fluery was drafted #1? Nope. Unless, he starts improving and dominating like a #1 should, I could give a rat's ass about draft spot. Are you going to tell Brodeur he wouldn't amount to much because he was a late 1st round draft pick? Or Hasek because he was drafted in the 10th round. Ward has improved every season since the draft and if he continues to improve he can be much more than a top 10 goalie, just like the many top 5 goalies there WERE NOT #1 picks but much later picks.

*sigh*
I live in hershey so i see AHL prospects plenty. I've also seen a bunch of AHL games on TV. Including the lockmonsters.

I'll start off by saying, you guys have something special in chuck kobasew. Cam is ultra impressive. He, when i saw him, was perfectly sound techinically, flashed some nice reflexes, and was much bigger than i thought, and not due to pad size. He was a great prospect and like i said he is very good and right now is better than fleury.

Just because a player has improved a ton since his draft year, which was before fleury's, doesn't mean he's going to constantly be better.

You can't GIVE the kind of talent fleury has. Just cause ward's developed more than fleury doesn't mean he'll automatically be better than fleury down the road.

I've seen ward play, whereas you haven't and are simply going by stats. Despit stats ward isn't the best in the league. Niitymaki, toivenen, lehtonen, and miller have all played better. You can't judge a goalie by stats.

You can't judge potential by draft rating. Everybody knew schremp had more potential than many other players in his draft but he was taken low, kostisyn had more potential than others in his draft before him yet he was taken behind them. Potential isn't judged by draft rating. Potential is judged by flat out play.

And i have no idea where you got that i don't think ward is going to be great, i said he has VEZINA potential if you bothered to read. But at his peak he won't be as good as fleury. To me, although i don't like fleury, his potential is something you can't deny. If you've seen his skills and his speed and just flat out ridiculous talent you would know this. Ward while very talented isn't as talented as fleury. The only way i could see ward being better than fleury down the road is if fleury absolutely collappses.

If you didn't know goalies develop slower(what a shocker!) Just cause ward is ahead of fleury now doesn't mean he will be down the road. The pens have a more than decent gm in craig patrick and he will get a goalie coach to help calm fleury down. Right now fleury's talent level is already up there with some of the most talented goalies in the NHL, but his techinique, poise, and intangible traits aren't. Ward is better than fleury NOW, but overall i'd still take fleury down the road in 4 or 5 years, due to fleury's immense potential, which IS NOT BASED ON DRAFT RATING.

What i got from your post is you simply didn't read anything else in my post other than "no way".

 

[HuskyFlames]

#1 - You must have season tickets to all AHL teams, because it seems like you are a vivid watcher of every player. It's quite funny because you seem like a huge liar and like to make yourself seem seem the end all scout.

#2 With that aside, Ward has plenty of talent, which made him go 1st round as well. At that time, Fluery had just put his game together more than Ward at that age. That does not mean that Ward does not have as much natural talent as Fluery because of his draft spot. Are you going to tell Brodeur or Hasek they don't have top talent because they didn't go #1 overall in their drafts? Draft position isn't the all for determing talent. There are a ton of guys with sick talent that just having put it together at that age. If the draft was based on talent alone, Shremp would have went top 5 but he hasn't put his sick talent together at that age, just like Ward.

 

[bruins4777*]

#1 - You must have season tickets to all AHL teams, because it seems like you are a vivid watcher of every player. It's quite funny because you seem like a huge liar and like to make yourself seem seem the end all scout.

#2 With that aside, Ward has plenty of talent, which made him go 1st round as well. At that time, Fluery had just put his game together more than Ward at that age. That does not mean that Ward does not have as much natural talent as Fluery because of his draft spot. Are you going to tell Brodeur or Hasek they don't have top talent because they didn't go #1 overall in their drafts? Draft position isn't the all for determing talent. There are a ton of guys with sick talent that just having put it together at that age. If the draft was based on talent alone, Shremp would have went top 5 but he hasn't put his sick talent together at that age, just like Ward.

do you read?

You've never even seen ward.

Ward went lower in the first round, because while he had talent and such it wasn't as great as other goalies and nobody really needed ward till the canes got him.

Hasek was drafted rather low for other reasons.

By your judgement justin pogge MIGHT have more potential or more talent than fleury but he "hasnt' put it together yet!" or what about mike brodeur! I'm sure he's better than fleury but he hasn't "put it together yet". And while were at it how bout every goalie ever drafted below the first round .I'm sure every goalie around has the ability to be better than fleury but "hasn't put it together yet".

Ward has loads of talent, but its simple fact that he's not more talented than fleury, but that is no insult. Fleury is the most talented goalie prospect i've ever seen outside of lehtonen, and thats by less than a hair. Ward has quick reflexes, but his movement and reflexes as a whole aren't as strong as fleury's. I've seen fleury before, not this season, but last season and as much as i don't like the guy i'm not going to deny his talent thats just narrow minded.

If you've never seen ward how do you know he's more talented than fleury or at least at fleury's level? I'll admit ward has been better than fleury this season and has developed way more, with one extra year, but there's no way you can say that ward is more talented PHYSICALLY then ward. Ward definently has better poise and intangible traits, which i've said at least 2 times in this thread, but his talent and ceiling isn't as high as fleury.

I'm sure canes fans themselves who have seen both fleury and ward will admit that ward has a lower ceiling.

Finally how am i a "vivid" watcher of every team. I know hershey the most, and a few other teams pretty well, but i'm not going around saying i know everything about every AHL player. I said i didn't feel ramholt would be more than a no.4 dman and now you have to be an ass about everything and not even bother to read. Sorry if i insulted your prospect to much. I said that i could have been wrong, but i guess that didn't matter much to you right? wait does it matter that i type this cause your not even going to freaking read it.

 

[Steve Latin*]

Yes but if Fleury is the said 100% mark, that leaves Ward at the 52% of Fleury mark and that makes Fleury 192% of what Ward is. I suppose the question is : Is Fleury 48% of how good Ward is better than Ward or is Fleury 48% of how good Fleury is better than Ward?

As I said, even tho I'm not a Fleury fan, I believe the latter to be more of a correct approximation, but it's certainly a matter worth discussing.

Your math is incorrect here. For Fleury to be 48% better than Ward, we have to maintain the following relationship, where F denotes Fleury's "value" and W denotes Ward's value:

F = W * 1.48

If we set F to 100, W must equal 67.57, not 52.

Hence Ward is 67.57 % of Fleury, and Fleury is 48% greater than Ward.



S L

 

[Til the End of Time]

Be careful bruins4777, because you're making some solid points.

And when that happens, Patrick - Flames Fan has been known to duck out of arguements he's losing by simply typing "blah, blah, blah..."

 

[Chartrand]

From the limited...limited...amount of times I've seen both play, I've been more impressed with Ward. Not as athletic but is more in control and composed.

 

[bleedgreen]

Your math is incorrect here. For Fleury to be 48% better than Ward, we have to maintain the following relationship, where F denotes Fleury's "value" and W denotes Ward's value:

F = W * 1.48

If we set F to 100, W must equal 67.57, not 52.

Hence Ward is 67.57 % of Fleury, and Fleury is 48% greater than Ward.



S L

not too often i feel MORE intelligent for being on these boards.....but now my head hurts.

 

[HuskyFlames]

do you read?

You've never even seen ward.

Ward went lower in the first round, because while he had talent and such it wasn't as great as other goalies and nobody really needed ward till the canes got him.

Hasek was drafted rather low for other reasons.

By your judgement justin pogge MIGHT have more potential or more talent than fleury but he "hasnt' put it together yet!" or what about mike brodeur! I'm sure he's better than fleury but he hasn't "put it together yet". And while were at it how bout every goalie ever drafted below the first round .I'm sure every goalie around has the ability to be better than fleury but "hasn't put it together yet".

Ward has loads of talent, but its simple fact that he's not more talented than fleury, but that is no insult. Fleury is the most talented goalie prospect i've ever seen outside of lehtonen, and thats by less than a hair. Ward has quick reflexes, but his movement and reflexes as a whole aren't as strong as fleury's. I've seen fleury before, not this season, but last season and as much as i don't like the guy i'm not going to deny his talent thats just narrow minded.

If you've never seen ward how do you know he's more talented than fleury or at least at fleury's level? I'll admit ward has been better than fleury this season and has developed way more, with one extra year, but there's no way you can say that ward is more talented PHYSICALLY then ward. Ward definently has better poise and intangible traits, which i've said at least 2 times in this thread, but his talent and ceiling isn't as high as fleury.

I'm sure canes fans themselves who have seen both fleury and ward will admit that ward has a lower ceiling.

Finally how am i a "vivid" watcher of every team. I know hershey the most, and a few other teams pretty well, but i'm not going around saying i know everything about every AHL player. I said i didn't feel ramholt would be more than a no.4 dman and now you have to be an ass about everything and not even bother to read. Sorry if i insulted your prospect to much. I said that i could have been wrong, but i guess that didn't matter much to you right? wait does it matter that i type this cause your not even going to freaking read it.

I could careless that you put down a FLames prospect. It seems like every prospect that come sup, you know so much ebcause you have seen them or you or your friends drive around watching them. Which I believe is a bunch of bull. Once again, just because Ward wasn't drafted 1st overall doesn't mean he doesn't have the same talent as Fluery. Ward's skills have improved. At the time of being drafted, Fluery was more skilled BUT skills DO IMPROVE. Ward has gotten faster and more agile. Fluery has remiained constant. Ward skills has imporved and narrowed the gap.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

I could careless that you put down a FLames prospect. It seems like every prospect that come sup, you know so much ebcause you have seen them or you or your friends drive around watching them. Which I believe is a bunch of bull. Once again, just because Ward wasn't drafted 1st overall doesn't mean he doesn't have the same talent as Fluery. Ward's skills have improved. At the time of being drafted, Fluery was more skilled BUT skills DO IMPROVE. Ward has gotten faster and more agile. Fluery has remiained constant. Ward skills has imporved and narrowed the gap.

Until you learn to spell his name, your opinion of Fleury is moot.

And even once you do get it right, I doubt I'll pay any more attention.

 

[HuskyFlames]

Until you learn to spell his name, your opinion of Fleury is moot.

And even once you do get it right, I doubt I'll pay any more attention.

Wow, this forum is now a spelling contest???

 

[bleedgreen]

Until you learn to spell his name, your opinion of Fleury is moot.

And even once you do get it right, I doubt I'll pay any more attention.

scratch what i said about feeling more intelligent.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

Wow, this forum is now a spelling contest???

No. If you had other valid points worth responding to, I would have responded to them. I even did respond earlier. I asked, in a manner of speaking, how many times you had seen Fleury play. You never replied, which leads me to believe you are basing your opinion that Fleury's development has been minimal to none over the past two seasons on absolutely nothing. Yet you still manage to call out bruins4777, saying he's lying about seeing players. Sounds like hypocracy if you ask me.

 

[bruins4777*]

I could careless that you put down a FLames prospect. It seems like every prospect that come sup, you know so much ebcause you have seen them or you or your friends drive around watching them. Which I believe is a bunch of bull. Once again, just because Ward wasn't drafted 1st overall doesn't mean he doesn't have the same talent as Fluery. Ward's skills have improved. At the time of being drafted, Fluery was more skilled BUT skills DO IMPROVE. Ward has gotten faster and more agile. Fluery has remiained constant. Ward skills has imporved and narrowed the gap.

broken freaking record.


"just because Ward wasn't drafted 1st overall doesn't mean he doesn't have the same talent as Fluery."

how many times have i heard this?
wait it must be because i went up to brodeur and hasek after they were drafted and told them they didn't have the skills to win a vezina right?

Ramholt, i've claimed to have seen and Ward, who else huh? 2 players. I see mostly AHL, i don't see players a lot before they get drafted with the exception of World juniors. A lot of my knowledge of the major juniors is from reading and talking to people. But most of my prospect knowledge revolves around AHL. So i don't usually see a prospect till AFTER they are drafted.