Fleury appreciation thread.

[Honour Over Glory]

I think as his confidence comes back throughout this season with solid play and hopefully, finally a Vezina nomination, he puts that mental block he's had since 2009, behind him and goes back into beast mode in the playoffs because he has given us proof that in 2008 and 2009 he can be one of the best playoff netminders in the league. I like to think he deserves one more chance.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

We lose the goaltending battle to just about any contending team with him in net, and that is too much to make up with this top heavy roster. It is not good enough to just be a league average starting goaltender on this team. If only our aging, top 5 goaltender didn't have blood clots....

The most telling and hilarious part was how the reaction to our 37 year old backup ("backup") goaltender going down was that they were screwed in the playoffs. There's something seriously wrong there and it sums up MAF's situation. Even now, it's that either Vokoun is back or they find another Vokoun type.

I agree with the thoughts regarding wins and goalies, a goalie can look like crap, 'win' a 9-8 game and it is still a win.

But I have that problem with all of the goalie stats. They are more than any other position on the ice team stats. That is why you see goalies go from trapping defensive teams with stellar reps and get owned when they go to teams that are less defensively responsible. Or from offensive oriented teams going to a defensive system and then suddenly becoming the best in the league.

Goalie is a hard position to evaluate, but if you use stats, unless you are comparing the goalie from one year to the next and the team is running the same system, to see if he is improving, it becomes nearly impossible.

I think a lot of stats in hockey aren't particularly useful and need to be fixed. FO% needs to account for where, when, who against and how many have been taken, +/- needs to either go away or have a complete overhaul, assists could be better, etc. Goalie stats are just one area.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Since we can't compare stats to other goalies, I guess we will just have to take your word for it.

No see, here's how you do this internet message board thing:

Me: I think using stats alone doesn't make sense in this case.

You: I think stats are useful in this case for X reason.

Etc etc.

If, on the other hand, your response looks like:

Bugga bugga bugga!??!

Then we, dear sir, may have reached an impasse.

 

[Shady Machine]

No see, here's how you do this internet message board thing:

Me: I think using stats alone doesn't make sense in this case.

You: I think stats are useful in this case for X reason.

Etc etc.

If, on the other hand, your response looks like:

Bugga bugga bugga!??!

Then we, dear sir, may have reached an impasse.

You provided no evidence for what you said other than "we have a terrible defense".

 

[Crafton]

Mike Darnay ‏@MikeDarnay 55s
if you took away the tip-ins & the re-directs, you’re talking a .977 save percentage on shots that MAF is seeing.

https://twitter.com/MikeDarnay/status/401764633746608128

i wouldn't mind taking a gander at his methodology but it sounds pretty impressive.

edit: vis-à-vis how he got that number...

Mike Darnay ‏@MikeDarnay 7m
interesting stat: of the 32 goals given up by Marc-Andre Fleury this season, 41% (13/32) of them have been re-directed or tipped in

Mike Darnay ‏@MikeDarnay 7m
i honestly don’t know if that number is higher than average or normal

Mike Darnay ‏@MikeDarnay 6m
but if you take away those goals, you’re talking 19 goals allowed that he is seeing on 408 shots. ridiculously good thus far.

https://twitter.com/MikeDarnay

 

[IcedCapp]

https://twitter.com/MikeDarnay/status/401764633746608128

i wouldn't mind taking a gander at his methodology but 'hot-damn' that sounds pretty impressive.

if you take away pucks that enter the net, he's saving 100% of all shots!

Just kidding, he's been great when he's not out of his crease playing the puck. Really like his game so far and I hope he can continue it in the post season.

 

[ByeBye]

https://twitter.com/MikeDarnay/status/401764633746608128

i wouldn't mind taking a gander at his methodology but 'hot-damn' that sounds pretty impressive.

That is pretty meaningless unless you can compare him to his peers.

 

[Crafton]

That is pretty meaningless unless you can compare him to his peers.

hence me saying that it sounds impressive rather than saying it is impressive. you have to take these things one-statistical-step-at-a-time unless you've already convinced yourself one way or another. lets now see if we can't find those peerage stats.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

His positioning and demeanor is much much better in net this year than in the past, even regular seasons. He's had good regular season years, but most of those involve a lot of athletic saves. The puck is hitting him a lot more this year, his rebound control is better, and his angles are good.

I'm very impressed at how much of an overhaul his game has undergone in just one offseason.

Say what you want about regular season and post-season, the guy has changed his play style so that most nights, you don't even notice him. He has very quietly given us a chance to win almost every night without deflating his team's confidence with silliness, and that's all your goaltender can do.

 

[HandshakeLine]

hence me saying that it sounds impressive rather than saying it is impressive. you have to take these things one-statistical-step-at-a-time unless you've already convinced yourself one way or another. lets now see if we can't find those peerage stats.

Sounds like you drank the logic kool-aid there mister.

A REAL fan just makes **** up and believes it forever and ever. It's a religion, not a game, you goddless heathen.

 

[ByeBye]

hence me saying that it sounds impressive rather than saying it is impressive. you have to take these things one-statistical-step-at-a-time unless you've already convinced yourself one way or another. lets now see if we can't find those peerage stats.

Well yeah, okay. We can agree it sounds somewhat impressive. That's cool.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Hes played great so far this year. Hope he can keep it up and prove the haters wrong.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hes played great so far this year. Hope he can keep it up and prove the haters wrong.

so do the haters

 

[IcedCapp]

Hes played great so far this year. Hope he can keep it up and prove the haters wrong.

god I hate that term. Fleury doesn't have haters. he's been **** in the post season to such a degree that the organization invested a draft pick and $2MM in his immediate backup and another high pick in his long-term replacement.

As I pointed out in the Letang thread, his regular season numbers have been fine, but he's had consistently-bad post seasons since winning the cup.

This entire board needs to get off the notion of haters. Everyone wants Fleury to be the guy who can carry them to the cup. Everyone wants Bylsma to do well. Everyone wants Letang to become that surefire #1. Everyone wants everyone on this team (other than Tanner Glass and Pascal Dupuis) to thrive and succeed.

We aren't haters, we're ****ing sitting there watching it not happen.

 

[Ogrezilla]

also that.

 

[Crafton]

@IC that seems to be a reflection of what you hope to be true. i also hope that everyone shares those same hopes. but i hope i'll never have to bet anything of value that everyone here hopes for the things that you and i have said that we hope for.

 

[Wes C Addle]

@IC that seems to be a reflection of what you hope to be true. i also hope that everyone shares those same hopes. but i hope i'll never have to bet anything of value that everyone here hopes for the things that you and i have said that we hope for.

Well said. Not everyone on here is a hater, but there absolutely are some as well. Oh well, it what it is. It's been encouraging to see his play so far this year, but it's a long year, and obviously more importantly you want to see this transfer to the postseason.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Well said, IC.

Well said. Not everyone on here is a hater, but there absolutely are some as well. Oh well, it what it is. It's been encouraging to see his play so far this year, but it's a long year, and obviously more importantly you want to see this transfer to the postseason.

True, there are haters. But when someone throws in, "Prove the haters wrong," it implies that anyone that has said something negative is just a hater and is therefore unjustified. That's untrue, it's trying to undermine other people's opinions, or that's how it comes off. Fleury has more than earned any negative opinions about him, and him performing well in the regular season isn't the concern. He's doing things that look encouraging but that's no guarantee that he won't drop it all and **** the bed in the postseason, again.

Hater is one of the most annoying things that has sprung up. It's lazy ad hominem and that gives me flashbacks to a logic class.

 

[Wes C Addle]

Well said, IC.



True, there are haters. But when someone throws in, "Prove the haters wrong," it implies that anyone that has said something negative is just a hater and is therefore unjustified. That's untrue, it's trying to undermine other people's opinions, or that's how it comes off. Fleury has more than earned any negative opinions about him, and him performing well in the regular season isn't the concern. He's doing things that look encouraging but that's no guarantee that he won't drop it all and **** the bed in the postseason, again.

Hater is one of the most annoying things that has sprung up. It's lazy ad hominem and that gives me flashbacks to a logic class.

I think that is all very fair. Perhaps it's the semantics of the word Hater. As you stated, the criticism is more than justified. People being labeled as a hater for that sort of justified criticism is without question inaccurate and lazy.

All that being said, there are definitely a few people here who have developed such a hate for either a player, coach or GM that it renders them incapable of providing impartial commentary on said individual. Facts blur with opinion and rage and the next thing you know we have the worst players, coach and GM in the modern era. Of course that can go the other way too.

Was the original comment about proving haters wrong a bit of a pot shot? Sure. Surprising? Not at all. It goes both ways. And the way this season has been playing out on here I wouldn't expect anything less. Hey, it's a message board, my expectations are pretty low.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well said, IC.



True, there are haters. But when someone throws in, "Prove the haters wrong," it implies that anyone that has said something negative is just a hater and is therefore unjustified. That's untrue, it's trying to undermine other people's opinions, or that's how it comes off. Fleury has more than earned any negative opinions about him, and him performing well in the regular season isn't the concern. He's doing things that look encouraging but that's no guarantee that he won't drop it all and **** the bed in the postseason, again.

Hater is one of the most annoying things that has sprung up. It's lazy ad hominem and that gives me flashbacks to a logic class.

This is well said and is actually more concise than what I said.

I think that is all very fair. Perhaps it's the semantics of the word Hater. As you stated, the criticism is more than justified. People being labeled as a hater for that sort of justified criticism is without question inaccurate and lazy.

All that being said, there are definitely a few people here who have developed such a hate for either a player, coach or GM that it renders them incapable of providing impartial commentary on said individual. Facts blur with opinion and rage and the next thing you know we have the worst players, coach and GM in the modern era. Of course that can go the other way too.

Was the original comment about proving haters wrong a bit of a pot shot? Sure. Surprising? Not at all. It goes both ways. And the way this season has been playing out on here I wouldn't expect anything less. Hey, it's a message board, my expectations are pretty low.

I should note something that no one could know because it takes place in my head: whenever I comment about these situations and I take stock of the "two sides" of the argument, I ignore the extremes. There are certainly people out there who just hate Fleury. There are people out there who love him unconditionally (this group may have been watered down to no more than his parents by this point, but it still exists). I prefer to not deal with those two groups of people because there is no reasoning with them and they have no place in a reasonable discussion.

 

[LetangInTheSO]

I've shown a lot of loyalty to Fleury mainly because I like the guy. Last year during the playoffs I finally had to accept that his meltdowns officially relegated him to "also-ran" status when it comes to discussing good-to-elite NHL goalies. I'm obviously tickled pink that MAF has been brilliant thus far this season, but unfortunately there's virtually nothing he can do between the months of October-March to change his rep. If Fleury wants to "reestablish" himself, he needs to show up in the playoffs. Even an acceptable playoff turnout would be a marked improvement for him at this point. Several epically bad playoff performances are his most recent yardsticks...

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I think that is all very fair. Perhaps it's the semantics of the word Hater. As you stated, the criticism is more than justified. People being labeled as a hater for that sort of justified criticism is without question inaccurate and lazy.

All that being said, there are definitely a few people here who have developed such a hate for either a player, coach or GM that it renders them incapable of providing impartial commentary on said individual. Facts blur with opinion and rage and the next thing you know we have the worst players, coach and GM in the modern era. Of course that can go the other way too.

Was the original comment about proving haters wrong a bit of a pot shot? Sure. Surprising? Not at all. It goes both ways. And the way this season has been playing out on here I wouldn't expect anything less. Hey, it's a message board, my expectations are pretty low.

That's just people, we do that, we're biased. People may go too far, but everyone does it to varying degrees and in different levels of obviousness. No one can be completely impartial, impartiality doesn't exist. The semantics are there, but people also know the semantics when they use the word. "hater." Rage reactions are different, but those tend to die down fairly quickly or it's obvious what's going on. If someone is extreme it's obvious.

My expectations for humanity in general are pretty low, it works.


I'm biased, I try to be aware of it but it's there and it colours everything; being aware of it only does so much.

 

[Wes C Addle]

This is well said and is actually more concise than what I said.



I should note something that no one could know because it takes place in my head: whenever I comment about these situations and I take stock of the "two sides" of the argument, I ignore the extremes. There are certainly people out there who just hate Fleury. There are people out there who love him unconditionally (this group may have been watered down to no more than his parents by this point, but it still exists). I prefer to not deal with those two groups of people because there is no reasoning with them and they have no place in a reasonable discussion.

Couldn't agree more.

That's just people, we do that, we're biased. People may go too far, but everyone does it to varying degrees and in different levels of obviousness. No one can be completely impartial, impartiality doesn't exist. The semantics are there, but people also know the semantics when they use the word. "hater." Rage reactions are different, but those tend to die down fairly quickly or it's obvious what's going on. If someone is extreme it's obvious.

My expectations for humanity in general are pretty low, it works.


I'm biased, I try to be aware of it but it's there and it colours everything; being aware of it only does so much.

I think IC said it better above than I could which is that there are extremes to both sides. Whether that be a Kool-Aid drinker or, a hater, or whatever label someone wants to give it, it exists here. I shouldn't have tried to imply "how" that develops, as that wasn't really the point. My observation/opinion is that there are both Homers and Haters here. Which isn't really a novel discovery on my part. Unfortunately it's easy to get labeled as one or the other, unfairly or not.

Anyways, as I said before, I'm pleased with Fleurys performance to date. Hopefully he can sustain it for a long run.

 

[Slabber Chops]

That is pretty meaningless unless you can compare him to his peers.

I take your point, however I think we all recognise that Fleury has consistently been a wall this season outside of those times when a shot is tipped. It's about the second time that I can remember those basics being consistently done well over this length of time by Fleury. Hope it continues.

 

[ByeBye]

I take your point, however I think we all recognise that Fleury has consistently been a wall this season outside of those times when a shot is tipped. It's about the second time that I can remember those basics being consistently done well over this length of time by Fleury. Hope it continues.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly. My comment also wasn't meant to be a knock on him or his performances, just at this particular stat.