Flames Forwards Minus Shackles (Warning: Corsi)

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
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2022 Cup to Calgary
In the last two seasons the Flames' defensive depth has had five players mostly playing in an undesirable scenario:

#8/#7 Defenseman Chris Butler playing a #4/#5 Role
#7/#6 Defenseman Deryk Engelland playing a #5/#4 Role
#5/#6 Defenseman Ladislav Smid playing a a #5/#4 Role
#5/#4 Defenseman Russell playing a #3/#4 role
#4/#5 Defenseman Wideman playing a #4/#3 role

As a result, the Flames have not been a very strong possession team over that span. The Brodie/Giordano pairing as a result has had to face levels of competition and deployment that are not comparable to any other #1 pairing in the league - they're taking on much harder minutes than they should have to (and, in fairness, the same is true of Mikael Backlund, who has been our de-facto #1 centre the last two seasons in terms of deployment, albeit of course Monahan has risen to the de-jure "#1C" role.

Next season, all of these defensemen will be pushed into their natural role for the most part (well, Butler's not a Flame anymore) thanks to the addition of Dougie Hamilton.

What will that mean for our forwards? Using SuperWOWY I compiled a list of the team's forwards' CF% without these five defensemen. Now, playing without these five defensemen means that they're more than likely playing with Giordano or Brodie - but not necessarily. We've had a few other decent possession defensemen here and there - Raphael Diaz, David Schlemko, and Derek Smith for instance. Additionally, playing with Giordano/Brodie isn't a Get-Out-Of-Jail free card, as that pairing is usually facing high-level competition - which means these players are likely facing higher-levels of competition than they normally do.

I just thought it would be interesting look at these players with the "shackle" of defensemen playing outside of their natural role removed. No doubt, these statistics are skewed by limitations on icetime as well as deployment. I tried to include those factors as best as I could in the chart, but it's never going to be perfect:

The TOI column refers to time spent without the the five players named above. All statistics are regular season and go from Sept 2013 to April 2015 for players who were here in 2013-14, and from Sept 2014-April 2015 for players who were added later.

The OZS% column refers to offensive zone start percentage. It's not a perfect stat, as it does incorporate a weighting for neutral zone starts, but it should illuminate whether a player is being used mostly offensively by Hartley, or defensively depending on whether it's above or below or right about at 50%.

And yes, Corsi For Percentage is not a perfect stat to measure possession. But it's what we have right now so without further adieau, let's take a look at how, give-or-take, we might be able to expect players to perform next season with a strong possession player in Dougie Hamilton or TJ Brodie able to bolster the middle pairing:

Lastly, I used 5 vs 5 situationsas it maximized the sample size, but ideally 5vs5 Close would better account for score effects (i.e. leading vs trailing).

Player | TOI | OZS% | CF%
Bollig | 137:56 | 36.4 | 46.0
Jones | 478:21 | 38.8 | 49.0
Bouma | 542:12 | 39.5| 50.0
Stajan | 420:19 | 41.0 | 53.4
Byron |370:33 | 42.1 | 55.9
Monahan | 639:28 | 43.3 | 49.4
Backlund |542:12 | 43.6 | 59.7
Shore | 043:26 | 45.8 | 50.6
Colborne | 482:52 | 48.7 | 51.4
Raymond | 228:57 |48.9 | 50.7
Hudler | 594:59 | 50.4 | 51.7
Jooris | 260:28 | 53.5 | 52.1
Gaudreau |295:38 | 57.9 | 50.2
Granlund |188:53 | 59.5 | 50.2
Ferland | 071:14 | 63.6 | 63.1

All SuperWOWY statistics provided by Puckalytics.com

You can see that Byron and Backlund are clearly on another level from the rest of the group, and I hope Frolik is too, though we'll have to see. You can also see that Jones, Stajan, and Bouma, despite being buried in the D-zone, are getting the puck forward.

What these stats probably tell us the most, is how good Giordano and Brodie probably are. But what I take out of them, is that next season, the additions of Hamilton and Frolik could see the Flames become a top 15 or better possession team. A few things Hartley could stand to do are not use Bollig so often in the D-zone, and maybe use Byron & Backlund together. On that note, one last stat:

Backlund/Byron Minus Wideman/Russell/Smid/Engelland:

TOI (@ 5vs5) | 140:17
OZS% | 45.1
PDO | 100.1
Goals For | 8
Goals For/60 |3.42
Goals Against | 5
Goals Against/60 | 2.14
Goals For % | 61.5
Corsi For | 159
Corsi Against | 85
CF% | 65.2
TOI @ 5vs5 Close | 88:05
CF% @ 5vs5 Close | 68.3
GF% @ 5vs5 Close | 55.6
Please? | Yes

The sample size is too small to make any definitive conclusions, but a duo like Byron-Backlund isn't just strong both ways, but at 5vs5 comparable to the incredible Bergeron-Marchand shutdown duo:

In the last two seasons The Backlund-Byron-Brodie-Giordano unit has seen some time together, but not nearly enough. In the last two seasons the Bruins had something like this in Bergeron-Marchand-Hamilton-Chara that they could and did rely upon.

4-man-Unit | TOI | OZS% | CorsiFor% | PDO | GoalsFor%
BBBG (Flames) | 105:11 | 40.0 | 63.4 |102.8 | 66.7
BMHC (Bruins) | 429:52 | 49.8 | 62.3 | 100.5 | 63.9

The big difference, is time on ice distribution. The Flames have used their best 4-man unit only 25% as often as the Bruins have.
 
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Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
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Patiently waits for 100TG to see this thread (I liked the disclaimer in the title). :laugh:

Byron. You know like wadda guy. It's baffling that some people don't even want him in the opening night 23-man roster, let alone on the second line. He's one of our most effective players. If he can regain his scoring touch, he'll win over a lot more than just you and I this season. :yo:
 

Skobel24

#Ignited
May 23, 2008
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Winnipeg
Patiently waits for 100TG to see this thread (I liked the disclaimer in the title). :laugh:

Byron. You know like wadda guy. It's baffling that some people don't even want him in the opening night 23-man roster, let alone on the second line. He's one of our most effective players. If he can regain his scoring touch, he'll win over a lot more than just you and I this season. :yo:

I <3 Paul Byron
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
56,248
8,384
Patiently waits for 100TG to see this thread (I liked the disclaimer in the title). :laugh:
I came in to look for a comment such as this. Now I shall ignore this thread and throw it away like the garbage advanced stats are.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
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Victoria
I came in to look for a comment such as this. Now I shall ignore this thread and throw it away like the garbage advanced stats are.

I'm glad I gave you validation. :laugh:

In fairness, the one big issue with OKG's analysis is that it seems to cut down to a very small sample size.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
16,133
7,107
2022 Cup to Calgary
In fairness, the one big issue with OKG's analysis is that it seems to cut down to a very small sample size.

The most useful sample sizes are probably the 350+ minutes ones, and even then I'd probably toss out Monahan's because of how young and "out-of-the-frying-pan" he's been both years of his career.

But the point was less about guys like Shore/Ferland as individuals and more about the general consistency of the results.
 

Master Bill

Congrats, Oilers! (2023)
Nov 9, 2014
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897
Do you guys know a website you refer to that easily explains all the advanced stats terms?

I've probably been in ignorance of them for too long because I never fully understood all the meanings and what the numbers indicate. I probably should learn them now that it's become so popular in recent years.
 

SaintMorose

Registered User
Jul 21, 2009
3,933
523
Byron has always been an advanced stats darling. He takes a lot of flak for his lack of finish (which isn't really as bad as people make it out to be) but each time he's not scoring a goal, the other team isn't even getting a chance.

I found it amazing that a couple games last year when he was our 4th most used forward on the pk and his line would see more scoring chances than the other team's power-play against it no-one else on the team had that same stat. And watching him at 5'7" throw some very borderline hits against the toughest players in the league is always a bit of a guilty pleasure.

Advanced stats really cant tell you a great story about each hockey player but they do put up some red flags (ex. The red flag of Russell and Wideman together spawning a lot of this chart and fixing that with a good puck retrieval guy in Hamilton) And yeah it's a small sample size but funny enough lowest on the team in CF% is Bollig who has no ability to get the puck out of our end, so for the love of god find a face-puncher who can move the puck forward (like that Michael Ferland guy). And this tells us keep putting Byron out there during 4 on 4 or PKs 'cause he's doing great with those minutes.
 
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Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,473
14,782
Victoria
Byron has always been an advanced stats darling. He takes a lot of flak for his lack of finish (which isn't really as bad as people make it out to be) but each time he's not scoring a goal, the other team isn't even getting a chance.

I found it amazing that a couple games last year when he was our 4th most used forward on the pk and his line would see more scoring chances than the other team's power-play against it no-one else on the team had that same stat. And watching him at 5'7" throw some very borderline hits against the toughest players in the league is always a bit of a guilty pleasure.

The last three seasons, the Flames have scored 1 SHG with Byron on the ice for every 2 PPG allowed with Byron on the ice.
 

SaintMorose

Registered User
Jul 21, 2009
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The last three seasons, the Flames have scored 1 SHG with Byron on the ice for every 2 PPG allowed with Byron on the ice.

That's just crazy I can't imagine a team (for example these arent the actual numbers) with a pk% of 90% that also just happens to score a goal 5% of the time; really shows how effective he is in that role to have similar stats to that.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,473
14,782
Victoria
That's just crazy I can't imagine a team (for example these arent the actual numbers) with a pk% of 90% that also just happens to score a goal 5% of the time; really shows how effective he is in that role to have similar stats to that.

Yup. He's far and away our best PKer. He suppresses shot attempts and goals better than anyone and also generates shot attempts and goals better than anyone while on the PK.

And, again. Some people don't want him in the opening-night 23.
 
May 27, 2012
17,070
856
Earth
Do you guys know a website you refer to that easily explains all the advanced stats terms?

I've probably been in ignorance of them for too long because I never fully understood all the meanings and what the numbers indicate. I probably should learn them now that it's become so popular in recent years.

http://www.puckalytics.com/faq.html


Quick find. Hope this helps, I will be leaving soon and will try to find a better one. This link gives you an idea.
 

Tkachuk Norris

Registered User
Jun 22, 2012
15,665
6,777
The last three seasons, the Flames have scored 1 SHG with Byron on the ice for every 2 PPG allowed with Byron on the ice.

Yeah I love Byron. But if he uses that backhand five-hole move on the break away again... I'm going to use my backhand on his face.
 

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