GDT: Flames @ Canucks, October 3 2018, 8:00 PM Local, Sportsnet West & 360

[Navin R Slavin]

That was a very Flames type game.

Out-shoot opponents. Check.
Have the majority of possession. Check.
Give up a odd-man rushes and never seem to get ourselves. Check.
Have a goalie take 4 goals on just over 20 shots. Check.
Powerplay that goes 0 for. Check.
Have a powerplay late in game that could swing the game into our favour by not capitalize. Check.

I'm going to give the boys the benefit of the doubt. It was the first game of the season, excited for the home opener which I will be attending!

FWIW, this was also a very Hurricanes type game under Bill Peters. (Canes fan coming in peace and commiseration.)

Our experience in Carolina was that the Bill Peters system stifled individual play and focused on possession possession possession, to the detriment of actually winning. Our PDO was incredibly low for the entirety of his tenure in Carolina -- and I know they say that PDO is supposed to be a measurement of "puck luck", but I suspect it's a proxy for a bunch of things that can't be measured that well yet, including shot quality for and against. Our PDO was too low for too long for it to have been accidental.

It just feels like the Bill Peters system only works when everyone is bought completely in, and things are going well. Very little room for creativity, or for error. It's one of the reasons I think Peters values Doc so highly -- because Doc is always 100% ready to play Bill Peters hockey.

For years, the stats heads were saying "holy moly, Carolina's Corsi is off-the-charts amazing, surely the results will be right around the corner." But "around the corner" never came.

Maybe you all will have better luck with a different mix of players and circumstances. I hope so.

 

[Mobiandi]

Ryan had a strong game at ES and was fantastic on the dot but he lost every physical battle on the PP and got dispossessed way too often.

Like I said, earlier in this thread: he's not shifty enough to make up for his size if he's playing down low on the PP. I'd pretty much have anyone else there.

As for the PP itself, switch Lindholm and Gaudreau and play them on their off-sides. It's not rocket science

 

[Mobiandi]

FWIW, this was also a very Hurricanes type game under Bill Peters. (Canes fan coming in peace and commiseration.)

Our experience in Carolina was that the Bill Peters system stifled individual play and focused on possession possession possession, to the detriment of actually winning. Our PDO was incredibly low for the entirety of his tenure in Carolina -- and I know they say that PDO is supposed to be a measurement of "puck luck", but I suspect it's a proxy for a bunch of things that can't be measured that well yet, including shot quality for and against. Our PDO was too low for too long for it to have been accidental.

It just feels like the Bill Peters system only works when everyone is bought completely in, and things are going well. Very little room for creativity, or for error. It's one of the reasons I think Peters values Doc so highly -- because Doc is always 100% ready to play Bill Peters hockey.

For years, the stats heads were saying "holy moly, Carolina's Corsi is off-the-charts amazing, surely the results will be right around the corner." But "around the corner" never came.

Maybe you all will have better luck with a different mix of players and circumstances. I hope so.

FWIW, the Canes guys were our best players. Everyone else was ass

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Stone looked like he missed Kulak last night

 

[Turning Mangiapanese]

That was some boring and ineffective hockey, a proper Gulutzan classic. I guess it's unreasonable to expect two years of bad habits to disappear at the flick of a switch, but I did expect a bit more after the summer overhaul.

 

[Rubi]

Can Valimaki - Andersson really be any worse than Valimaki - Stone?

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Can Valimaki - Andersson really be any worse than Valimaki - Stone?

Well considering Andersson is twice the player that Mike Stone is, I’m goinh to go with no

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Having had the night to digest last night, my thoughts:

- Hanifin was truly dominant. Possibly the best player on the ice for either team. Should have seen #1PP time. Almost a less in-your-face version of PK Subban, very complete player.

- Power play needs some off wing one timers and more crosscrease decisive passing. It's common sense. Get Neal, Jankowski, Monahan, Bennett, or Giordano on the right circle and fire away.

- Overall the team didn't look half as good as they did in San Jose last week - some credit to Vancouver as they obviously treated this as a David v Goliath matchup and flat out made every shift matter whereas last week we were the David to SJ's Goliath - the tables were turned.

- Bennett-Janko did well given their deployment. Their deployment was a joke though as they're clearly better than Dube-Ryan.

- Brodie was okay, but he wasn't what he should be in any of the three zones. Going to take some time to wash off the Gulutzan stench and get back to a top pair level. Transition game, passing, being creative... he needs to get back to that.

- People have said Gio looked slow but I disagree. Virtanen is just real fast.

- On the negative side was our third pair. Brought back nightmares of Jokipakka-Engelland levels of incompetence. Valimaki had a nice stretch pass but was otherwise the worst player on the ice for either team, and Stone will need to be much better than he was although he wasn't really to blame for any goals against (was to blame for some grade A chances against but Smith stopped those). Stone's biggest problem is he suffers from Kris-Russell-blind-breakout-pass-itis and that's an issue when your partner is right out of junior hockey and shouldn't be playing in the D zone - all the offensive zone starts won't help this pair if Stone doesn't clean that up. It's going to be tough - last year he was carried by Kulak and suddenly he is being asked to carry a 19 year old. I think Valimaki will have to make significant strides over the next ~four games to show he can be a solid #5 and carry Stone. Otherwise we should call up Kylington.

- Smith's puck playing felt more detrimental than not in terms of keeping our skaters involved. Thought he was solid though.

- On the Canucks side I was impressed by Pettersson... excellent backchecking, playmaking, and a snipe to boot. Amazing what a true #1 center playing #1 center instead of 4LW can do for a team, and his linemate Loui Eriksson looked like the old 60+ pt guy he's always been. I wish we had that. Funny how the commentators said he played wing last year in the SHL. If Bennett isn't ever going to be allowed to be that guy for us, we really need to consider tanking for a #1 center as Monahan is very clearly not that kind or caliber of game-controlling player, regardless of counting stats playing with Gaudreau. But yeah, if Pettersson-Eriksson and Horvat-Boeser can give these guys a top six, and Tanev stays healthy on D, they're going to be a tough-out for any opponent.

 

[Baxterman]

Can Valimaki - Andersson really be any worse than Valimaki - Stone?

Yes

Considering Stone is better than Andersson and a better fit for Valimaki it could very easily and very likely be worse.

Ignoring of course that it was the first game of the season and we should probably hold off on big decisions based on one game.

 

[Lunatik]

Well considering Andersson is twice the player that Mike Stone is, I’m goinh to go with no

either you're terrible at evaluating talent or this is massive hyperbole

 

[Lunatik]

Dube on the powerplay was basically just a tryhard.

Dube literally never played a single second on the PP

 

[SKRusty]

Stone looked like he missed Kulak last night

Can Valimaki - Andersson really be any worse than Valimaki - Stone?

I disagree with OKG on Valimaki in that the kid had poise and was moving the puck but Stone is horrible defensively and having two offensive defensemen on the third pairing is going to be a gong show. Andersson really needs to be in the line-up and not Stone. Andersson and Valimaki match styles well.

Stone is slow, always out of position, and his only strength the slap-shot can't be used because he is unable to drive play.

The power play is garbage right now. It is a one trick pony where the defense only has to key on Johnny. I personally think have two entry plans. One with Czarnik on the right and Johnny on the left where the defenders can't cheat to the left knowing Johnny will be carrying the mail. Or a chip and chase with Dube and Backs.

 

[Rubi]

Dube literally never played a single second on the PP

Yeah... but I'm sure he tried real hard from the bench.

 

[Mobiandi]

Stone is just continuing his poor form from pre-season. I'm starting to agree with OKG's claim from way back where he said that he can't carry his own pairing. Maybe Andersson can be that guy

 

[Volica]

Having had the night to digest last night, my thoughts:

- Hanifin was truly dominant. Possibly the best player on the ice for either team. Should have seen #1PP time. Almost a less in-your-face version of PK Subban, very complete player.

- Power play needs some off wing one timers and more crosscrease decisive passing. It's common sense. Get Neal, Jankowski, Monahan, Bennett, or Giordano on the right circle and fire away.

- Overall the team didn't look half as good as they did in San Jose last week - some credit to Vancouver as they obviously treated this as a David v Goliath matchup and flat out made every shift matter whereas last week we were the David to SJ's Goliath - the tables were turned.

- Bennett-Janko did well given their deployment. Their deployment was a joke though as they're clearly better than Dube-Ryan.

- Brodie was okay, but he wasn't what he should be in any of the three zones. Going to take some time to wash off the Gulutzan stench and get back to a top pair level. Transition game, passing, being creative... he needs to get back to that.

- People have said Gio looked slow but I disagree. Virtanen is just real fast.

- On the negative side was our third pair. Brought back nightmares of Jokipakka-Engelland levels of incompetence. Valimaki had a nice stretch pass but was otherwise the worst player on the ice for either team, and Stone will need to be much better than he was although he wasn't really to blame for any goals against (was to blame for some grade A chances against but Smith stopped those). Stone's biggest problem is he suffers from Kris-Russell-blind-breakout-pass-itis and that's an issue when your partner is right out of junior hockey and shouldn't be playing in the D zone - all the offensive zone starts won't help this pair if Stone doesn't clean that up. It's going to be tough - last year he was carried by Kulak and suddenly he is being asked to carry a 19 year old. I think Valimaki will have to make significant strides over the next ~four games to show he can be a solid #5 and carry Stone. Otherwise we should call up Kylington.

- Smith's puck playing felt more detrimental than not in terms of keeping our skaters involved. Thought he was solid though.

Jankowski was easily the most invisible and ineffective player for Calgary last night. Not once did I even notice him, and he's getting 3rd/4th line CANUCK match-ups.

Valimaki was fine, kind of what you expect from a 19 year old D. He made one glaring mistake and made one amazing play. Outside of that he looked confident and played well. Also, why should we call up Calgary's 9D? He's behind 3 guys right now, and for a reason. If you thought Valimaki had a bad game because of bad pinch, welcome to the world of Oliver.

 

[Volica]

Stone is just continuing his poor form from pre-season. I'm starting to agree with OKG's claim from way back where he said that he can't carry his own pairing. Maybe Andersson can be that guy

He needs a guy who can carry weight, I don't think Stone can take a 19 year old D and make him look like a top 4D.
Valimaki was also in his first game, as a 19 year old on defence. He's only going to get better.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Jankowski was easily the most invisible and ineffective player for Calgary last night. Not once did I even notice him, and he's getting 3rd/4th line CANUCK match-ups.

Uh, Jankowski wasn't getting matched up with the Canucks' 3rd/4th line. The line he saw the most of was the Pettersson line (you call it Canucks' 2nd line, but with how well Pettersson and Erikkson played it was closer to their 1st line) and he was tasked to play in a defensive faceoffs type role against that line. The line he saw second-most was the Granlund-Beagle-Leipsic line (you can call it their 3rd line I guess) which Bennett/Janko did dominate, and they also saw a couple shifts against Horvat where their line again won the matchup. They only played nine minutes, all at ES, so you might have thought they were invisible, but I disagree. If you noticed Ryan, it was only because he was out there all game on the PP and he wasn't good at all at ES. Dube is a beauty but he is not superior to Bennett.

Valimaki was fine, kind of what you expect from a 19 year old D.

I do expect more. Valimaki is on this team because he supposed to be an upgrade on Brett Kulak, and last night he was not an upgrade on Brett Kulak, in fact he was a tire fire. As I said earlier, Valimaki should get a handful more games to prove himself, but that doesn't change the fact that last night, he was awful.

He made one glaring mistake and made one amazing play.

I counted more than one glaring mistake and his overall defensive positioning was not strong.

Also, why should we call up Calgary's 9D?

Why should we call up one of our four best left side defensemen if our purported third best left side defensiveman proves to not be up to the task? Do I really need to answer that? Okay, fine. Kylington is a fourth year pro and has the skill, polish, and ability to carry Stone, which is what we need from our #5 defensemen. We are all hoping Valimaki can be that guy but there is no harm in sending Valimaki down if he struggles, and far more harm in keeping Valimaki up.

If you thought Valimaki had a bad game because of bad pinch, welcome to the world of Oliver.

Bad pinches happen. Kylington is more polished and experienced two-way player. He got sent down probably because of a bad pinch in preseason, yet otherwise, as Treliving noted, had an excellent camp. If the only difference between Valimaki and Kylington was that one made a bad pinch, and now the other one is making bad pinches, that difference no longer exists. Kylington also plays a game more suited to being Stone's partner just as Andersson is more suited to being Valimaki's partner.

 

[Anglesmith]

No one is seriously knocking Gio's skating, are they? He was out for a minute and a half on the PP and Virtanen was fresh out of the box. That's not a fair assessment at all.

 

[Ty Dolla]

That corsi though

 

[JPeeper]

No one is seriously knocking Gio's skating, are they? He was out for a minute and a half on the PP and Virtanen was fresh out of the box. That's not a fair assessment at all.

I've seen plenty of people knocking it and people saying he is already over the hill, those people are all idiots. Gio was, like you said, at the end of a long shift against a fresh Virtanen who is also a extremely quick player. It also wasn't Gio's fault Smith doesn't know how to close his legs when that is Virtanen's only option. Both me and my friend knew he was going five-hole the minute he skated passed the blue zone, I have no idea what Smith was thinking there.

 

[Volica]

Uh, Jankowski wasn't getting matched up with the Canucks' 3rd/4th line. The line he saw the most of was the Pettersson line (you call it Canucks' 2nd line, but with how well Pettersson and Erikkson played it was closer to their 1st line) and he was tasked to play in a defensive faceoffs type role against that line. The line he saw second-most was the Granlund-Beagle-Leipsic line (you can call it their 3rd line I guess) which Bennett/Janko did dominate, and they also saw a couple shifts against Horvat where their line again won the matchup. They only played nine minutes, all at ES, so you might have thought they were invisible, but I disagree. If you noticed Ryan, it was only because he was out there all game on the PP and he wasn't good at all at ES. Dube is a beauty but he is not superior to Bennett.



I do expect more. Valimaki is on this team because he supposed to be an upgrade on Brett Kulak, and last night he was not an upgrade on Brett Kulak, in fact he was a tire fire. As I said earlier, Valimaki should get a handful more games to prove himself, but that doesn't change the fact that last night, he was awful.



I counted more than one glaring mistake and his overall defensive positioning was not strong.



Why should we call up one of our four best left side defensemen if our purported third best left side defensiveman proves to not be up to the task? Do I really need to answer that? Okay, fine. Kylington is a fourth year pro and has the skill, polish, and ability to carry Stone, which is what we need from our #5 defensemen. We are all hoping Valimaki can be that guy but there is no harm in sending Valimaki down if he struggles, and far more harm in keeping Valimaki up.



Bad pinches happen. Kylington is more polished and experienced two-way player. He got sent down probably because of a bad pinch in preseason, yet otherwise, as Treliving noted, had an excellent camp. If the only difference between Valimaki and Kylington was that one made a bad pinch, and now the other one is making bad pinches, that difference no longer exists. Kylington also plays a game more suited to being Stone's partner just as Andersson is more suited to being Valimaki's partner.

Honestly. I can't take your assessment of players too seriously.
Kylington is about more polished than Valimaki are a rusty cast iron pan is to a rusty spoon. The reason Valimaki made camp over Kylington is that he was more impressive and made less brain dead plays.

Kylington can't even carry a top pair in the AHL, how are you expecting him to make that jump to the NHL? Just because of reasons? Ceilings, potential and reality are all very different things... but there seems to be a disconnect for that with you in terms of player analysis.

 

[Mobiandi]

Kylington played a safe, uninteresting camp and got sent down because there always seemed to be a mistake in him leading to a goal.

Valimaki on the other hand looks/ed like 2016 Kylington. You can't teach his offensive instincts much like Ollie, but you can't help but see him terrible read after read out there in his own zone. Honestly, he's not gonna have many opportunities to rack up points for us so unless he tightens up his defense, he has no reason to be on the third pairing.

I was left disappointed with both of their pre-seasons and I seriously don't think there's that much separating them

 

[Navin R Slavin]

That corsi though

The proper spelling: "dat corsi doe"

 

[Tofveve]

I'm still sad about that game.

 

[Fig]

IMO, I disagree with most posters saying that last night was a Flames classic from last season. Yeah, lots of similar issues in similar places to last year, but I found the Flames were inventing new ways to lose. I guess it's a pro and con.

1. Zone entries are night and day vs last season. Last season, we had issues entering the zone even on PP. Last night, no such thing. I liked the new zone entry.
2. PP last season had issues holding the blue line. That's because Gully had the dmen collapse to the neutral zone right away. Last night? Everyone was clustered deep in the Ozone and getting whomped by successful clears due to poor win/loss for board and puck battles. (To Vancouver's credit, they played a simple but effective PK)
3. Face offs. I didn't look at the stats, but my god, I felt it looked worse than last season. What the hell?
4. Last season, the argument was they didn't shoot enough on the PP. Last night? Ignore some of the official stats. The amount of shots that missed the net... ridiculous. It does look like they're shooting more though and shaking off the old system which is encouraging.
5. The amount of board and puck battles that the Flames lost last night were too damn high. I don't recall seeing that last season.
6. The give a damn meter sorta works this season. I guess the season is still new.
7. I lost count the amount of times I saw players standing nearly straight watching the puck and admiring the play. This contributed IMO to many lost puck and board battles. No such thing in prior season IIRC.

Evolution during the game I noted:
- Early in the game, much more finesse and skill and cute plays were apparent. Almost as if the Flames didn't take the Canucks seriously. Shades of Gully.
- Low physicality at first, lots of attempts at fancy passing and plays vs shooting.
- Players gave each other space
- Late in the game, there was much more brash and physicality going on. It looked seemingly effective. Shades of Hartley.
- Much more physicality, firing of pucks at the net regardless of where anyone was.
- Occasional clustering of players in the Ozone to get a shot off (which I was ok with)

Last season was robotic and dull and concerns were correct.

This season so far, concerns that fans have, I don't mind. But last night was a roller coaster ride of Jekyll and Hyde in terms of old habits and new habits. There's glimpses of things that look improved, there's new things the team was screwing up on that they didn't before. Shades of the old system play (cycle). Shades of the new system play (rush). No physicality, lots of physicality. Players admiring the play vs players being relentless...

The list goes on. It IMO was a super weird game with lots of dichotomies. Lots of be excited about, but also lots to be concerned about. However, the interviews last night were encouraging. Lots of the issues I felt I saw in the game were addressed by management and players. They weren't relentless enough and watch the plays develop rather than force themselves to be part of the play.