First 14 Seasons: Crosby vs. Howe

[daver]

IMO, there is not a lot separating them in terms of their offensive performances. Even factoring in Howe's physical presence it is still close given Crosby's elite defensive game, his role as a #1C, and a superior track record in carrying a line of lesser linemates.

Howe has the clear best season between the two (52/53) and the clear best regular season resume in terms of raw points.

Crosby was clearly superior earlier in his career which counters Howe's superior early to mid 20's career and has a good argument for having the better playoff resume.

A point of contention is how to measure their respective performances vs. their peers. IMO, once reasonable consideration is given to the different peer group sizes, their regular season PPG domination is quite similar.

IMO, the biggest difference in their respective resumes after 14 season is Howe's ability to stay healthy. If Howe had put up another 52/53 type season, most notably in the late 50s when others seemingly were close to his prime/peak production, then there would be no debate. I would comfortably place him closer to Wayne and Mario if he had.

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[sr edler]

it is still close given Crosby's elite defensive game

What.

 

[Passchendaele]

Crosby doesn't have elite defensive game. This stuff is getting out of hand.

Answer is Howe, and it's not even close.

By the time he was 32, Howe had five scoring titles to his name and five Harts as well. Conn Smythe trophy did not exist then, but he has at least one locked up (1955).

 

[snipes]

Classic daver.

This is Howe easily.

I have Crosby in the 5-7 all time range, but he’s not in the Mount Rushmore with Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, and Howe.

 

[K Fleur]

Howe is closer to Gretzky than Crosby is to Howe.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby doesn't have elite defensive game. This stuff is getting out of hand.

Answer is Howe, and it's not even close.

By the time he was 32, Howe had five scoring titles to his name and five Harts as well. Conn Smythe trophy did not exist then, but he has at least one locked up (1955).

True enough Crosby doesn't have an elite defensive game but it's probably better than Howe.

The answer also probably is Howe but it's close and it might be different if not for injuries.

Yes Howe has 5 Art Ross trophies but it's a 6 team league and alot less fluctuation or variance if elite players stay healthy like Howe did.

Also remember the Wings won a SC when Howe was 21 and he was a non factor and played in only 1 game.

The Pens never get out of the first round if Crosby only plays one game.

The game, team and league dynamics are just so much different post lockout than they were in the 50's NHL so it's hard to really do a fair comparison.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hard for us to judge this as literally 95% of this board didn’t see Howe’s prime.

Given the literature and the resume, it’s Howe.

 

[Gambitman]

As great as Howe was, I have always found it surprising/disappointing that he only won 4 cups. I mean he played virtually his whole career as the best player in a league with 6 teams, and 2 of those (Rangers and Bruins) were pretty much bad for all of Howe’s career. So there were essentially 4 teams that could win the cup from year to year. I am far more impressed with Crosby’s 3 cups then with Howe’s 4. I still think Howe is the better player, but I think the gap is not as big as some make it out.

 

[wetcoast]

As great as Howe was, I have always found it surprising/disappointing that he only won 4 cups. I mean he played virtually his whole career as the best player in a league with 6 teams, and 2 of those (Rangers and Bruins) were pretty much bad for all of Howe’s career. So there were essentially 4 teams that could win the cup from year to year. I am far more impressed with Crosby’s 3 cups then with Howe’s 4. I still think Howe is the better player, but I think the gap is not as big as some make it out.

Like I mentioned upthread Howe won 4 SC's but only played in 1 game and was a non factor in the Red Wings 1950 SC.

 

[filinski77]

5 harts, 5 art ross's, 4 (retro) rockets

bad take

 

[daver]

Classic daver.

This is Howe easily.

I have Crosby in the 5-7 all time range, but he’s not in the Mount Rushmore with Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, and Howe.

How is this Howe easily after 14 seasons? Crosby has the better playoff resume and was arguably just as dominant PPG-wise over the course of that timeframe.

 

[daver]

Howe is closer to Gretzky than Crosby is to Howe.

The OP is about their first 14 seasons. Are you still making this statement considering that?

In any event, Howe had one season that was demonstrably better than his peers best seasons during his era. Wayne had 8 or 9 (other than Mario). His ability to put up multiple others seasons that matched the best of the era from his peers, while his peers could only muster one each, is the clearest indicator of his dominance. That he could not replicate that 52/53 level of dominance and that a few players were hitting his Art Ross point totals a few years later, points to him reaching a level that, statistically, is clearly below Wayne.

His playoff resume is befitting of his regular season resume but unlike Wayne, he arguably doesn't have the best playoff run (let alone multiple ones) of his era.

Back to the OP, if you want to count trophies and be done with it, that's fine but consideration for injuries certainly comes into play when Orr and Mario's careers are evaluated. Crosby showed has showed a PPG dominance over a season, over a few seasons, and over his career to date that can give Howe a run for his money and better playoff resume.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

"First 14 seasons", says the man being critical of a hockey player whose legendary status comes from both his prime dominance and the fact that he was still at the top of the league at 40 years of age.

 

[MadLuke]

First instinct is an easy Howe with that 50-51 to 53-54 incredible domination, but I imagine on a strong team a young player had quite the hard time getting ice time back then, so Crosby Jump start could maybe justify some arguments.

In Howe 14 first seasons

RS
Howe: 977 pts, 1.07 pgg
Lindsay: 783 pts, 0.86 ppg
Richard: 779 pts, 0.95 ppg
Geoffrion: 525 pts, 0.98 ppg
Olmstead: 514 pts, .71 ppg
Beliveau: 510 pts, 1.17 ppg

Playoff:
Geoffrion: 108 pts, 1.02 ppg (is Boom boom underrated ?)
Richard: 90 pts, 0.83 ppg
Lindsay: 90 pts, .84 ppg
Howe: 90 pts, 0.95 ppg
Moore: 83 pts, . 87 ppg
Beliveau: 78 pts, 1.24 ppg


The only really close was an absolute other legend Maurice Richard.

Crosby first 14 season:

Crosby: 1216, 1.29 ppg
Ovechkin: 1211, 1.12 ppg
Thornton: 1057, 1.00 ppg
Malkin: 1002, 1.18 ppg
Staal: 943, .86 ppg
Kane: 938 pts, .104 ppg

Playoff:
Crosby: 186 pts, 1.13 ppg
Malkin: 168 pts, 1.04 ppg
Ovechkin: 126 pts, .98 ppg
Kane: 1223 pts, .97 ppg

Point Top 10 finish:
Howe..: 1,1,1,1,1,2,3,4,4,5,5
Crosby: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10

Hart top 10 finish
Howe..: 1,1,1,1,1,2,3,4,7
Crosby: 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,5,6


I guess it depend how much you rank peer competition between the 2 era and for how hard it was to get first line role between eras as well. Howe outscored Richard ppg in the RS by 12.6% and in the playoff by 14%, Crosby outscored Ovechkin in the RS ppg by 15.2% and in the playoff by 15.3%.

Closer than I though it would be imo, but yeah Howe resume look like what Crosby without injury ideal scenario would have been (you add 2 dominant Art Ross in 2010-2011 and in the lock out shorten season, a good 2010-2011 playoff run and they become very similar), in that scenario Crosby would have a clear case.

 

[MadLuke]

Howe had one season that was demonstrably better than his peers best seasons during his era.

Was it not a 4 year's in a row block ?

Was it not demonstraby separated from the pack from 50 to 54 ? Or at the time except for a season in a poll among coach who do you want for your next playoff run it would have been close with Richard or some other player ?

 

[daver]

"First 14 seasons", says the man being critical of a hockey player whose legendary status comes from both his prime dominance and the fact that he was still at the top of the league at 40 years of age.

How I am I being critical of Howe?

And if you don't want to discuss the OP given its parameters, don't bother to post anything.

 

[daver]

Was it not a 4 year's in a row block ?

Was it not demonstraby separated from the pack from 50 to 54 ? Or at the time except for a season in a poll among coach who do you want for your next playoff run it would have been close with Richard or some other player ?

I was referring to his one season that stands apart from the best seasons of his era peers (Richard, Beliveau, Hull, and Mikita). I.e. his other seasons during the 51 to 54 stretch are similar to the best seasons of those four.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

How I am I being critical of Howe?

And if you don't want to discuss the OP given its parameters, don't bother to post anything.

Like all of your arguments in this vein, it's a gigantic red herring.

Nobody is going be talking historically about how Crosby might come close to Howe in this extremely specific, extremely arbitrary cross-section of their careers.

And Crosby will never make it a Big 5.

 

[JackSlater]

At best you can say that Crosby might have done what Howe actually did if he had been luckier with injuries. Clear edge to Howe.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The hoops people jump through trying to prop up Crosby... this is Howe, easily.

 

[VanIslander]

A Beliveau vs. Crosby comparison would at least be worth debating, even if Sid comes up short.

 

[MadLuke]

Nobody is going be talking historically about how Crosby might come close to Howe in this extremely specific, extremely arbitrary cross-section of their careers.

Well it is all Crosby career, not really that arbitrary, arguably it is not that fair to compare Crosby past 14 season with Howe, even thought it is also arguably almost certain to give Howe the huge edge.

 

[MadLuke]

A Beliveau vs. Crosby comparison would at least be worth debating, even if Sid comes up short.

Beliveau first 14 season's start when at 19 or 22 ? Depending how you feel about the strength of the relative peer, does feel quite close.

At 19

RS
Howe.....:1190 pts, 1.15 ppg
Beliveau.: 829 pts, 1.11 ppg
Bathgate.: 792 pts, 1.00 ppg
Geoffrion: 759 pts, 0.99 ppg

Playoff:
Howe.....: 133 pts, 1.20 ppg
Geoffrion: 115 pts, 0.91 ppg
Beliveau.: 107 pts, 1.09 ppg

Beliveau: 1 Art ross, 2 rocket richard, 2 Hart, lead the playoff in scoring 1 time, 6 stanley cup.
Crsoby: 2 art ross, 2 rocket richard, 2 Hart, lead the playoff in scoring 1 time, 3 stanley cup

Point Top 10 finish:
Belivea: 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,6,8
Crosby.: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10

Hart top 10 finish
Belivea: 1,1,2,3,4,4
Crosby.: 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,5,6

At 22 (53-54 to 66-67)

Regular season
Howe......:1063 pts, 1.11 ppg
Beliveau..: 937 pts, 1.09 ppg
Bathgate..: 869 pts, 0.96 ppg
Delvecchio: 768 pts, 0.80 ppg
Bobby hull: 715 pts, 1.06 ppg

Playoff
Beliveau..:128 pts, 1.08 ppg
Howe......:122 pts, 1.18 ppg
Geoffrion.:101 pts, 1.04 ppg
Delvecchio: 93 pts, 0.90 ppg

Beliveau: 1 Art ross, 2 rocket richard, 2 Hart, lead the playoff in scoring 1 time, 7 stanley cup.
Crosby: 2 Art ross, 2 rocket richard, 2 Hart, lead the playoff in scoring 1 time, 3 stanley cup

Point Top 10 finish:
Belivea: 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,6,8
Crosby.: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10

Hart top 10 finish
Beliveau: 1,1,2,2,3,4,4
Crosby..: 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,5,6

 

[Theokritos]

Crosby doesn't have an elite defensive game but it's probably better than Howe.

Based on?

 

[Michael Farkas]

"Well, Your Honor. We have plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."