Management Fire Billy Big Balls
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Jesus comma Brodin
Effing Norris-Byng Brodin
I think he had justifiable moves up until the 2022 calendar year started. He was abysmal after that.
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
If they do, they do; if they don't, they don't.
He's already made the biggest f*** up that I didn't want him to, so whatever.
He's already made the biggest f*** up that I didn't want him to, so whatever.
DANOZ28
Registered User
i question billys moves and i will always question "the master plan" but changes needed to be made then let the buffalo chips fall where they may. with our cap h3ll we should focus on building a team ready to contend in 3 years. winning now millions behind the 8 ball probably isn't reality.
Jesus comma Brodin
Effing Norris-Byng Brodin
Has he though? This rhetoric doesn't really add up... yet at least.
Rossi is the only player he's drafted that's played an NHL game, and that hasn't been successful albeit its very early. It is too early to call anyone a bust, but its also too early to say he has drafted well.
Sounds like a recipe that aligns perfectly with 97 to walk into UFA after playing with centers that are worse than his KHL linemates.
BagHead
Registered User
Kept the Wild's best line together (or would have if they could stay healthy), and took a chance on a couple of guys with some draft pedigree that hadn't worked out on their teams. Just did what he said he would do with Goligoski. He was not interested in keeping Fiala on the Wild, and got a good return for him. This definitely isn't perfect, but it's all at least understandable.
Kept Dumba when there weren't any cheaper, better options available for #4 defenseman.
See above. They're a worse team this year for it for a certainty, but I think they'll be a better team long-term for it.
He did shit talk Fiala a little bit, in an attempt to defend Dumba from other shit talkers.
Kahkonen for Middleton is... fine. Not great, not terrible. It's a backup quality goalie for a middling, defensive defenseman. Not something to hire or fire a GM over.
The former 1st round pick's play had turned himself into a 2nd round pick, and his play since then has been even worse. Draft position does not equal value. Really happy with that trade, it's a good example of Guerin seeing what he had and acting on it before anyone else realized it was definitely fools gold.
Definitely mismanaged that relationship, agree completely.
Jack McBain had the choice to not sign, and most teams would not have been able to sign him when he's only a couple of months from UFA. Glad he got something out of it, most GMs don't get that much back in that situation, if anything at all. Also, McBain has not been great so far.
Sturm for Jost sucked then, and it's just as bad now. He also knew Sturm wasn't re-signing, though, so it's not something I'm overly upset about. I just wish he could have gotten something like a 4th round pick for him instead of salary.
The only real issue I have with him is that he's tried to keep the team competitive while also trying to rebuild, which is a recipe for doing neither particularly well. I also don't think he had a choice though, as Kaprizov is on the team right now, but he had no cap space or assets to really be able to build skill around him. Kind of a shitty situation, but I think he's handled it as well as I could hope for, and I know for a near certainty that many (maybe even most) GMs would have done a worse job of it. I say "No" because I'm afraid of what he'd be replaced with. Anyone saying "How much worse could it get?", you don't want to effing know.
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Seems a bit drastic to me. I’m not his biggest fan, but I don’t think he’s in a position remotely close to being fired. He’s got a really long leash, imo. Has done some good and some bad but I think he’s getting better as he learns. The Fiala trade was more about roster construction than anything I think. He didn’t want that much money tied up in wingers.
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
I think he likes Boldy enough not to mess that up, and all signs are pointing to him not making a Dumba contract extension mistake.
Those are my two biggest concerns right now and I think he's on the right side of both of them right now.
Ultimately, I just don't think it matters much anymore until the summer of 2025.
BagHead
Registered User
I didn't mention the "money tied up in wingers" thing in my post, and I have no idea if that was a part of Guerin's logic, but it's why I'm personally ok with the trade.
DANOZ28
Registered User
next season if billy could bring in tarasenko at a reasonable price might make kaprizov happy. in 3 years buchnevich will be a ufa assuming our prospects aren't quite ready. what could a new gm do at this point that billy can't?
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
I guess we'll find out how much money he ends up putting into centers then, because "too much money tied up on wingers" doesn't really mean a thing when you're paying your three top 9 centers $8M combined.
BagHead
Registered User
Very true, and that actually brings to mind a potential pitfall for him:
I don't want him giving big money to centers that don't fit the role, just to show the fans that he's spending the money there. That would also be a huge waste. He's got to wait for the right ones to become available. Not signing Fiala has given him the ability to sign them when it happens. There's doing what you think will keep your job and keep fans mollified, and then there's doing what's good for the team in the long run, and those don't always match up. It takes a certain type of person to choose the latter, and I hope Guerin is that type.
I am very sure that Leipold is not considering firing Guerin , after having to prematurely fire his previous GM.
I think Evason is the one who is far more likely to be fired during the season. It's a little early to say, but i am seeing signs of a coach who is out of ideas, and players that are tired of hearing his "Play the right way" cliches.
I think that Guerin has a mixed record.
- Zucker trade was good, no matter how you slice it.
- His acquisition and keeping of draft picks has been good, and the hiring of Brackett appears to have been a good move. I know it's hard to say yet, but impartial observers have rated our prospect pool really highly.
- I am fine with the trading of Kunin. He was always a disappointment, and has done nothing of note since.
- I thought the Staal trade was weird, but ultimately a non issue. All players involved were and are non factors.
- Sturm for Jost was always a bad move, but we are talking 4th liners here.
- I didn't like the Talbot situation, but in retrospect, it's hard to argue against it. If Talbot had stayed here, would he have been injured? Alternate universe type stuff. I'm ok with it.
- I only partially let him off the hook for the Suter/Parise buyouts. The contract situation was not one of his making(not his fault), Parise was definitely done here(not his fault), but I don't buy that Suter is not better than Goligoski + buy out penalty(his fault). I REALLY don't buy that Suter's personality was such that it couldn't be managed. We are not talking Evander Kane here.
- The inability, or flat out lack of desire to keep Fiala while keeping lesser, replaceable talents such as Goligoski, Greenway, Jost, and (to a lesser extent)Dumba is my major beef with Guerin. Scorers, in most sports, tend to be rare, and can often be divas. It's part of the job to deal with those personalities. Evason and Guerin seem to be of the mind that it's not worth it. I disagree, though I understand that there are some personalities that are toxic. I just never heard of teammates complaining about Fiala- Boldy seemed to love him - and he seemed to be accountable, often owning up in public for his mistakes and taking his benchings positively. It's not like Fiala was in the news for bad behavior, or even negative comments.
- Evason seems to want his job to be easy, and to dumb the game down, even if it means quashing the creativity of their best players ... we've seen it before, with Mike Yeo. He got his wish by losing Fiala, making Dumba his assistant Captain, and now putting his wonderfully talented 21 yo forward, Matt Boldy, on a dump and chase checking line. Enjoy your time in the sun, Dean, because I have a feeling that it isn't going to last. You simply are an ordinary, replaceable, hockey mind.
- One other little thing that bugs me about Guerin. He keeps trying to BS us, telling us how Victor Rask was a good player, how Tyson Jost was a good player, how good Freddy Gaudreau(he IS a good bottom six Center, but...), how we don't need a Center, and on, and on. Just shutup. It's not going to work. We aren't in Tampa. This is a knowledgeable hockey market. We are not going to blindly accept everything you say if our eyes are telling us differently.
I think Evason is the one who is far more likely to be fired during the season. It's a little early to say, but i am seeing signs of a coach who is out of ideas, and players that are tired of hearing his "Play the right way" cliches.
I think that Guerin has a mixed record.
- Zucker trade was good, no matter how you slice it.
- His acquisition and keeping of draft picks has been good, and the hiring of Brackett appears to have been a good move. I know it's hard to say yet, but impartial observers have rated our prospect pool really highly.
- I am fine with the trading of Kunin. He was always a disappointment, and has done nothing of note since.
- I thought the Staal trade was weird, but ultimately a non issue. All players involved were and are non factors.
- Sturm for Jost was always a bad move, but we are talking 4th liners here.
- I didn't like the Talbot situation, but in retrospect, it's hard to argue against it. If Talbot had stayed here, would he have been injured? Alternate universe type stuff. I'm ok with it.
- I only partially let him off the hook for the Suter/Parise buyouts. The contract situation was not one of his making(not his fault), Parise was definitely done here(not his fault), but I don't buy that Suter is not better than Goligoski + buy out penalty(his fault). I REALLY don't buy that Suter's personality was such that it couldn't be managed. We are not talking Evander Kane here.
- The inability, or flat out lack of desire to keep Fiala while keeping lesser, replaceable talents such as Goligoski, Greenway, Jost, and (to a lesser extent)Dumba is my major beef with Guerin. Scorers, in most sports, tend to be rare, and can often be divas. It's part of the job to deal with those personalities. Evason and Guerin seem to be of the mind that it's not worth it. I disagree, though I understand that there are some personalities that are toxic. I just never heard of teammates complaining about Fiala- Boldy seemed to love him - and he seemed to be accountable, often owning up in public for his mistakes and taking his benchings positively. It's not like Fiala was in the news for bad behavior, or even negative comments.
- Evason seems to want his job to be easy, and to dumb the game down, even if it means quashing the creativity of their best players ... we've seen it before, with Mike Yeo. He got his wish by losing Fiala, making Dumba his assistant Captain, and now putting his wonderfully talented 21 yo forward, Matt Boldy, on a dump and chase checking line. Enjoy your time in the sun, Dean, because I have a feeling that it isn't going to last. You simply are an ordinary, replaceable, hockey mind.
- One other little thing that bugs me about Guerin. He keeps trying to BS us, telling us how Victor Rask was a good player, how Tyson Jost was a good player, how good Freddy Gaudreau(he IS a good bottom six Center, but...), how we don't need a Center, and on, and on. Just shutup. It's not going to work. We aren't in Tampa. This is a knowledgeable hockey market. We are not going to blindly accept everything you say if our eyes are telling us differently.
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I think Guerin is ultimately judged by:
- how the 2020+ draft classes develop
- how Kaprizov is handled at the end of his current contract
I think it's too early to make a call on either of those things, and don't think that firing Guerin really improves our chances in either arena. Now if he starts talking about trading futures to plug roster holes a few months after the Fiala trade? Take his phone away and lock him out of the office. Beyond that the potential damage is largely done already, and we'll have to see if it'll lead to success in a few years.
It's hard for me to think the team is underperforming relative to expectations right now. They traded an 85 point forward without having a credible replacement lined up, re-upped a 38 year old starting goalie, and have massive dead cap space for the next few seasons. One has to assume that management (and ownership) expected this when they made those decisions and that they'll proceed accordingly.
If they do start trading high picks and prospects, then this team is probably run by children and we should abandon all hope.
- how the 2020+ draft classes develop
- how Kaprizov is handled at the end of his current contract
I think it's too early to make a call on either of those things, and don't think that firing Guerin really improves our chances in either arena. Now if he starts talking about trading futures to plug roster holes a few months after the Fiala trade? Take his phone away and lock him out of the office. Beyond that the potential damage is largely done already, and we'll have to see if it'll lead to success in a few years.
It's hard for me to think the team is underperforming relative to expectations right now. They traded an 85 point forward without having a credible replacement lined up, re-upped a 38 year old starting goalie, and have massive dead cap space for the next few seasons. One has to assume that management (and ownership) expected this when they made those decisions and that they'll proceed accordingly.
If they do start trading high picks and prospects, then this team is probably run by children and we should abandon all hope.
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Guerin hasn't contributed positively to this current roster in any way. When he was hired he inherited Kaprizov, Fiala, Boldy, Suter, Zuccarello, Spurgeon, Eriksson Ek, Foligno, Greenway, Brodin, Hartman and Zucker. He inherited all of those, he didn't acquire any of them himself.
He has since removed a few of those guys without bringing in any suitable replacements. Zucker for Addison and 1st might go down as his least bad move, depending on how Addison keeps progressing and how Lambos turns out.
The rest of his "successes" have been a result of hiring a scout who seems to be good at his job.
The other guys Guerin has brought in via trade during his time here:
Galchenyuk- non-factor, already gone
Bjugstad- non-factor, already gone
Johansson- non-factor, already gone
Nick Bonino- non-factor, already gone
Ian Cole- non-factor, already gone
Nolan Stevens- AHL forward, non-factor, already gone
Brandon Baddock- AHL forward, non-factor
Tyson Jost- non-factor, soon to be gone
Nicolas Deslauriers- non-factor, already gone
Jake Middleton- good bottom pair defenseman
MA Fleury- average starting goaltender (to replace another average starting goaltender)
Filip Gustavsson- let's call him an average backup goaltender (to replace an above average backup goaltender, ultimately)
That's not even getting into the fact that the best player he's signed via free agency is a bottom six player that's been forced into a top six role he clearly isn't good enough for.
He gave Goligoski 2 more years and a NMC, now Goligoski is the 7th D getting healthy scratched every night.
Kulikov was overpaid and then promptly shipped out for nothing.
This is a guy who said "it's about f***ing winning" but then hasn't done anything but strip down what should have been a perennial playoff team to it's most basic components, resulting in a fringe playoff team. He has yet to demonstrate he knows how to acquire NHL talent. He is going on his fourth season as an NHL GM, he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt or the "wait and see" approach.
I'm fully aware that he is not on the hot seat until the buyouts are over and Kaprizov leaves, but it's crystal clear to see that he is not the reason for this teams success, and neither is the coach he extended.
He has since removed a few of those guys without bringing in any suitable replacements. Zucker for Addison and 1st might go down as his least bad move, depending on how Addison keeps progressing and how Lambos turns out.
The rest of his "successes" have been a result of hiring a scout who seems to be good at his job.
The other guys Guerin has brought in via trade during his time here:
Galchenyuk- non-factor, already gone
Bjugstad- non-factor, already gone
Johansson- non-factor, already gone
Nick Bonino- non-factor, already gone
Ian Cole- non-factor, already gone
Nolan Stevens- AHL forward, non-factor, already gone
Brandon Baddock- AHL forward, non-factor
Tyson Jost- non-factor, soon to be gone
Nicolas Deslauriers- non-factor, already gone
Jake Middleton- good bottom pair defenseman
MA Fleury- average starting goaltender (to replace another average starting goaltender)
Filip Gustavsson- let's call him an average backup goaltender (to replace an above average backup goaltender, ultimately)
That's not even getting into the fact that the best player he's signed via free agency is a bottom six player that's been forced into a top six role he clearly isn't good enough for.
He gave Goligoski 2 more years and a NMC, now Goligoski is the 7th D getting healthy scratched every night.
Kulikov was overpaid and then promptly shipped out for nothing.
This is a guy who said "it's about f***ing winning" but then hasn't done anything but strip down what should have been a perennial playoff team to it's most basic components, resulting in a fringe playoff team. He has yet to demonstrate he knows how to acquire NHL talent. He is going on his fourth season as an NHL GM, he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt or the "wait and see" approach.
I'm fully aware that he is not on the hot seat until the buyouts are over and Kaprizov leaves, but it's crystal clear to see that he is not the reason for this teams success, and neither is the coach he extended.
BagHead
Registered User
I've already said my piece on Guerin, but I just have to say, this part of your post is literally what a GMs job is. He hires guys who are good at their jobs (on or off the ice) in order to create a winning team. Not giving him credit for doing that would be similar to wanting him to lace up the skates himself and start scoring goals.
A little off topic for the rest of this post, but I'm not certain our prospect pool is actually good until they become good NHLers, so my judgement isn't complete on Brackett yet. If I look at his history with the Canucks, it's not bad, but I'm not really that impressed either. He mostly just hit on the guys he was supposed to, often with top 10 picks. He's basically made a name for himself off of drafting Boeser, but the very next year he had a big miss on Juolevi at 5th overall.
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Yeah, it is a big part of a GM's job, you're right, and I've given him credit for that hire in the past.
But hiring a scout (who seemed to be a no brainer hire at the time, a very highly coveted scout anyway) can't be the only thing Guerin is good at. That is more my point.
The guy has pretty consistently focused on building through the draft. Last year the team was on fire and he said he's not going to sell the future for a big move to go all in. I don't see how anyone could think that he's disappointed with how the team is playing now, because he doesn't seem to expect to win now. I'm betting Leipold wanting to sell tickets is the only reason there haven't been more players moved for futures.
To comment on this, Russo said he knows for a fact that Guerin tried to trade Dumba, just like Fenton also did. Turns out there's no market for a bad defensive defender with mediocre offensive numbers making 6m a year in a stagnant cap growth league.
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