FIFA called out to offer equal prize money for men/women World Cup tournaments

Mike C

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Hosts Australia making call out as women get 25% of prize money to split
Wait a sec? Women play soccer?

When the hell did that start?
 

GindyDraws

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One interesting anecdote to this story is apparently FIFA pays the individual federations and its their responsibility to pay the individual women what is owed. Good luck with that.
And boy has this caused problems with the smaller feds, like we've seen in CAF (African football) the past year or so. Though that in and of itself is an issue of internal corruption and incompetence.
 

wmupreds

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The problem with all the economic/revenue arguments people always bring forward is that FIFA (or US Soccer, when that was the big debate) is ostensibly a nonprofit (yeah, I know, good joke). Their stated goal is to grow the game worldwide and invest their money into that goal. So, whether to pay the women more or equally to the men really shouldn't be a decision made on a purely economic basis.

Of course there's theory and there's reality..
 
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KevFu

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So they get 25% of what the men get, but only bring in what 5-10% of the revenue the men do?

Seems the money is quite appropriate to play a game.

Well, that's not really correct, but it's also not really the point.

When they list the amount of revenue "the Men" make vs the "women make," they put ALL the TV revenue for a bundled package of 7-to-16 different FIFA tournaments, men and women, into the MEN'S number and include NOTHING for the women. Or the other 5-14 tourneys in the bundle.

It's not really the point because FIFA's job is to grow the WWC into the biggest/most lucrative it could be. And that means treating it no different than the men's tournament, and expecting revenue to follow as you change the perception of the women's game.

"Not as many people are interested in women's soccer compared to men" isn't a valid excuse from FIFA, it's an admission of their failure.

The problem with all the economic/revenue arguments people always bring forward is that FIFA (or US Soccer, when that was the big debate) is ostensibly a nonprofit (yeah, I know, good joke). Their stated goal is to grow the game worldwide and invest their money into that goal. So, whether to pay the women more or equally to the men really shouldn't be a decision made on a purely economic basis.

Of course there's theory and there's reality..

Pretty much. It doesn't actually matter what the revenues are, the organization is trying to MAXIMIZE the revenues the product brings in, which requires INVESTING IN THE PRODUCT and making it more appealing, and "normalizing" the women's game as just as entertaining and important as the men's.

It's really not that tough of a sell, considering that the volume of countries with far more success on the women's side than men's side. It's a tough sell in about 10 countries (elite men's nations of Europe, South America, and in Mexico), but virtually everywhere else, it's a winnable battle.
 
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joestevens29

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Well, that's not really correct, but it's also not really the point.

When they list the amount of revenue "the Men" make vs the "women make," they put ALL the TV revenue for a bundled package of 7-to-16 different FIFA tournaments, men and women, into the MEN'S number and include NOTHING for the women. Or the other 5-14 tourneys in the bundle.

It's not really the point because FIFA's job is to grow the WWC into the biggest/most lucrative it could be. And that means treating it no different than the men's tournament, and expecting revenue to follow as you change the perception of the women's game.

"Not as many people are interested in women's soccer compared to men" isn't a valid excuse from FIFA, it's an admission of their failure.



Pretty much. It doesn't actually matter what the revenues are, the organization is trying to MAXIMIZE the revenues the product brings in, which requires INVESTING IN THE PRODUCT and making it more appealing, and "normalizing" the women's game as just as entertaining and important as the men's.

It's really not that tough of a sell, considering that the volume of countries with far more success on the women's side than men's side. It's a tough sell in about 10 countries (elite men's nations of Europe, South America, and in Mexico), but virtually everywhere else, it's a winnable battle.
Paying a second rate group Same as top tier doesn’t grow anything

My aren’t male models getting the same as females? Because they don’t make the money.

There is no reason to pay people that bring in way less the same as people that bring in way more

If I’m a salesmen that sells 1 million dollars a year am I gonna make the same as someone that sells 50k a year?
 

wmupreds

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Paying a second rate group Same as top tier doesn’t grow anything

My aren’t male models getting the same as females? Because they don’t make the money.

There is no reason to pay people that bring in way less the same as people that bring in way more

If I’m a salesmen that sells 1 million dollars a year am I gonna make the same as someone that sells 50k a year?
Salespeople and models work for for-profit companies which renders your whole point moot

Nobody (well, almost nobody) is saying club teams need to pay women equally no matter what
 

Albatros

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Paying a second rate group Same as top tier doesn’t grow anything

My aren’t male models getting the same as females? Because they don’t make the money.

There is no reason to pay people that bring in way less the same as people that bring in way more

If I’m a salesmen that sells 1 million dollars a year am I gonna make the same as someone that sells 50k a year?
Why should the Canadian men's team or indeed Qatar receive about as much for finishing dead last as the women's World Cup champions get? It's by no means the women that are second rate there.
 

joestevens29

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Why should the Canadian men's team or indeed Qatar receive about as much for finishing dead last as the women's World Cup champions get? It's by no means the women that are second rate there.
Because more people watched it. Just like why do nfl players make way for them cfl players

Salespeople and models work for for-profit companies which renders your whole point moot

Nobody (well, almost nobody) is saying club teams need to pay women equally no matter what
Lol if you think fifa is not for profit
 
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ColePens

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How is it even a conversation? When Ronda Rousey was kicking ass on UFC and everyone was watching her fights, she was the highest paid fighter. Aka she DREW money.

How are people fighting the argument that it should be based off revenue earned from the event? Why are all these special rules needed? If women draw more than men, they should get paid more than men. I don't know what the ratings have been, but if adverts are going for millions and ratings are superbowl level, then women should simply get paid more than men. If the men are out drawing in ridiculous numbers, then they get it.

IDK who is out-drawing who, but I think it's pretty simple. Womens hockey, fighting, boxing, soccer, ANYTHING - if it out draws the men in revenue, they deserve more money than men. Men wouldn't say "Hey hey hey! Give me more because they are doing well!"
 

Albatros

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Because more people watched it. Just like why do nfl players make way for them cfl players
Not really. For example in the Netherlands 5.5 million people watched the last women's World Cup final, but only 3.8 million watched the Dutch men's group stage match against Qatar. If anything, these bottom-tier teams actively hurt ratings and still they get rewarded the same as women's champions.
 
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Mirka the Turka

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People seem to fail basic economics in this thread

The women deserve 2 percent of the pay the Men get. If the U15 team from some random American city can beat the US women's soccer team, they deserve far less than 2 percent. 2 percent is being generous.

Pay based off talent and revenue,
 
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Kshahdoo

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Yeah, no you won't. Here's what teams got in prize money at the 2022 World Cup. Messi's contract in a third tier league alone gives him significantly more in a year than the whole team got for winning this tour. I'm sure you can say, well that's Messi, but it's also for winning. Insigne's contract with Toronto puts him above what a team making the round of 16 gets. Do we think Italy's rage at missing the World Cup is due to missing on that guaranteed 9M$? I'm sure no one is spitting at the money, but these guys are rich rich, with only their football contract being pointed out here. But for women from whom FIFA and its subordinates still demand an ever increasing level of performance - The Women's Euros was last year, having a World Cup year after that is an insane calendar - they do still struggle on the whole to get a living wage purely out of football, which makes in turn those demands more and more unreasonable, which obviously does more to killing any incentive to play at a high level.

And yes, if someone would be "what about the men??" yes, their calendar is insane and it should easily be cut back, but FIFA being what it is, they don't care. Also, this might be the prestigious "Business of Sports forum", but I don't recall saying reduce the men's share of prize money. I would think the same rules of language apply here. Hell, I'm not even opposed to increasing the revenue share of men as well because I believe FIFA is shortchanging them.

Yeah, yes you will. Messi is Messi, you have to consider how much your average WC participant makes. For most of them WC prize money is the main reason they play at the tournament.
 

Fish on The Sand

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It doesn't help that, here in the States at least, the United States women are the measuring stick when it comes to the game, while if the men win a single knockout round match, that's somehow enough to justify a proverbial parade for them. So the argument is distorted more between a team that routinely wins championships but is underpaid versus a team that can't even win a Gold Cup but but is expected to be rewarded handsomely for mediocrity.
The US men's team wins the gold cup all the time
 
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KevFu

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Paying a second rate group Same as top tier doesn’t grow anything

There is no reason to pay people that bring in way less the same as people that bring in way more

For the 12th time, the point isn't how much the players make. The point is that FIFA has one golden goose when there's no reason they can't have two. It's the exact same thing: The best players in the world, again. Just a different group of best players in the world.

When people look back on the history of women's pro sports, it's gonna be an awful lot like the path that the sport of soccer took in the US: "What the hell took so long?"

Women's sports has the same "normalization" problem that the concept of soccer had here in the early 90s: People would get upset and hurl slurs at the mere mention of the sport. People wrote letters angry that the TV station dared to put soccer on it. Now? Now it's normal to see soccer on TV.

It's normal to see women's sports on ESPN, ABC, FOX - because the networks are realizing that instead of paying $500m for a fifth-tier men's sport, they can pay $30m or less to the best women's league on the planet, promote it, and get a higher ROI. And the more it's on TV, the more normal it becomes, and the more normal it becomes, the more money it's going to make.


Everyone looking at the economics of women's sports are looking at it the complete backwards way. Instead of arguing that women's players deserve X, you should be focused on "These NWSL and WNBA owners are getting teams for $5 to $15 million? Can I scrape up that amount of cash? That's like Steinbrenner buying the Yankees for $8.8 million in 1973."
 
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ColePens

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For the 12th time, the point isn't how much the players make. The point is that FIFA has one golden goose when there's no reason they can't have two. It's the exact same thing: The best players in the world, again. Just a different group of best players in the world.

When people look back on the history of women's pro sports, it's gonna be an awful lot like the path that the sport of soccer took in the US: "What the hell took so long?"

Women's sports has the same "normalization" problem that the concept of soccer had here in the early 90s: People would get upset and hurl slurs at the mere mention of the sport. People wrote letters angry that the TV station dared to put soccer on it. Now? Now it's normal to see soccer on TV.

It's normal to see women's sports on ESPN, ABC, FOX - because the networks are realizing that instead of paying $500m for a fifth-tier men's sport, they can pay $30m or less to the best women's league on the planet, promote it, and get a higher ROI. And the more it's on TV, the more normal it becomes, and the more normal it becomes, the more money it's going to make.


Everyone looking at the economics of women's sports are looking at it the complete backwards way. Instead of arguing that women's players deserve X, you should be focused on "These NWSL and WNBA owners are getting teams for $5 to $15 million? Can I scrape up that amount of cash? That's like Steinbrenner buying the Yankees for $8.8 million in 1973."
What are you even talking about. Just show the numbers dude. I havent seen anything but how much revenue is this bringing in? If its bringing in more than the mens... the women deserve more. If its identical, then identical pay.

Just show the numbers. You are just talking all around it with a bunch if virtue signaling that makes no sense. Just show the numbers.

If anything you are holding women back. If they out draw men, they damn well better get paid more.
 
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KevFu

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What are you even talking about. Just show the numbers dude. I havent seen anything but how much revenue is this bringing in? If its bringing in more than the mens... the women deserve more. If its identical, then identical pay.

Just show the numbers. You are just talking all around it with a bunch if virtue signaling that makes no sense. Just show the numbers.

If anything you are holding women back. If they out draw men, they damn well better get paid more.

I'm going to humor you, because once again, you're missing the point and I've said it already 3x in the thread.

The soccer federation pays its players. This thread is about the FIFA prize money for world cups, and THEIR stupid decisions with it, so let's talk about that...

#1 - the vast majority of the money FIFA has comes from the TV contracts they sell globally to (up until this cycle) a bundle of tournaments, including the men's and women's World Cups. So when you look at "the numbers" you want to use about men's revenue vs women's revenue; they put the entire amount of the TV money as "Men's" revenue and NONE as women's revenues (or the other tournaments). So all the numbers you want to see are pure bullshit.

#2 - The prize money ISN'T based on any kind of formula, equitable, or inequitable, or any kind of percentage of revenue or anything. It's literally whatever FIFA decides to do with it.

You need to separate the idea that the men's prize money is bigger "because the men bring in more revenue than the women." It's not. It's bigger on the men's side of things because (a) for 75+ years, they only HAD a men's side of things. and (b) When they started selling TV rights, a ton of money came in, and as a "non-profit" they technically CAN'T keep it. They HAVE to give it all to its members in some fashion. And there's dozens of ways they do it. But awarding prize money to the World Cup is part of it, and it makes sense.

FIFA had very little to no interest in anything with women's soccer. It took 20 years to get FIFA to agree to a women's championship, and they had so little faith in it, they didn't let the organizers CALL IT the FIFA Women's World Cup! They sold a sponsorship and it was the "M&Ms Cup."

But when it sold a half-million tickets, it became the FIFA Women's World Cup. They retroactively called 1991 the first WWC. So now they have a WWC on their hands. And since the men's tourney has prize money, they reluctantly have to give women prize money, too. So they did.

It's ALWAYS been reactionary: More of a "they're still complaining? Up their prize money til they shut up."

#3 - The prize money ISN'T a "reward" for earning FIFA money, but it IS a good idea for an ROI to the associations who invest in their programs!

And that's the key item in understanding my overall point: Reluctant and reactionary FIFA has a massive financial incentive to MAKE the WWC the same golden goose of profits that the MWC is. But they haven't through their own foolish decisions, and being combative with the confederations and associations that care about women's soccer, too.


This topic isn't a GENDER issue, it's a MARKETING issue. The business of women's soccer ISN'T "how much do they bring in" but how much FIFA has failed to double its business from one huge soccer tournament to TWO.

By setting equal prize money, they'd be telling all the countries that the way to get the most money back from FIFA, is to invest in both products. Set a ROI and the members will follow.

If the countries are investing, they're going to promote it. Because you can't wait 4 years without getting a paycheck, you have to sell tickets.

It's a complete and total business failure by FIFA. It's not that women don't "earn" enough revenue to get paid the same prize money, it's that FIFA hasn't invested in half of their business potential.
 

joestevens29

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What are you even talking about. Just show the numbers dude. I havent seen anything but how much revenue is this bringing in? If its bringing in more than the mens... the women deserve more. If its identical, then identical pay.

Just show the numbers. You are just talking all around it with a bunch if virtue signaling that makes no sense. Just show the numbers.

If anything you are holding women back. If they out draw men, they damn well better get paid more.
It seems some want to push the inequality angle when discussing the 2023 Women’s World Cup of Soccer. The prize money for the Women will be $152 million according to FIFA. The 2022 Men’s World Cup of soccer had a prize pool of $440 million. But this isn’t about gender. It is about revenue. The MWCS generated $7.5 billion in revenue. We won’t know the 2023 WWCS totals until the tournament is over, but the 2019 tournament had $131 million in revenue. This year will be much higher. Maybe even double, which is great, but even if the revenue quadruples it would be $524m.


Here are the numbers. It is very clear why the women don't get more. Throwing the same amount of money does nothing to generate more interest in the sport.

Maybe the complaint should be why are sponsors paying as much. Not why is FIFA who's actually being more than fair not throwing enough money at this.
 

wmupreds

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Because more people watched it. Just like why do nfl players make way for them cfl players


Lol if you think fifa is not for profit
Of course it is. It's not supposed to be. That's the whole argument people are making. It's corrupt AF, everyone knows and understands that, but if it's not supposed to be for profit then there's not really a justifiable reason to argue the pure economic side for not compensating the women as much.

Surely you aren't arguing for the FIFA status quo.
 
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