Rumor: Far Too Negative...

[knorthern knight]

Jokinen can't help but improve this year. His history and track record shows that he will. Not sure why all Jets fans want to believe the opposite.

We didn't play Randy Jones or Derek Meech a 2nd year, hoping they'd have "a bounceback year". Yet, the Jokinen cult takes on religious proportions... I beli-e-e-e-e-e-eve bretheren, in the 2nd coming of an effective Jokinen who earns his pay. Face it, Jokinen is over the hill, and I really don't expect him to become a star again, any more than Meech/Jones did. Noel's insistence on playing Jokinen cost us a playoff spot last year, and could cost us again this year. And now he seems to be favouring Wright as well.

I'm actually quite happy with what Chevy has done, given what he inherited. He gave us a team that should've made the playoffs last year. It was Noel who blew it.

 

[Donald]

We didn't play Randy Jones or Derek Meech a 2nd year, hoping they'd have "a bounceback year". Yet, the Jokinen cult takes on religious proportions... I beli-e-e-e-e-e-eve bretheren, in the 2nd coming of an effective Jokinen who earns his pay. Face it, Jokinen is over the hill, and I really don't expect him to become a star again, any more than Meech/Jones did. Noel's insistence on playing Jokinen cost us a playoff spot last year, and could cost us again this year. And now he seems to be favouring Wright as well.

I'm actually quite happy with what Chevy has done, given what he inherited. He gave us a team that should've made the playoffs last year. It was Noel who blew it.

I'm not holding out much hope for Jokinen either, but he has a way better history of good play than Randy Jones or Meech. The comparison is not even close in fact.

And who exactly was Noel supposed to play over Jokinen last year exactly? O'Dell? Please. Same with this year. I'm reading about how Scheifele isn't looking that great yet in the same threads that everyone demands that he is the 2nd line center. It's not too late to ruin the kid, people. Let's ease him into the NHL. And as much as we all love to drool over any young AHLer that shows a little bit of speed, obviously O'Dell isn't a better option than Jokinen at this point.

There is a middle ground between "2nd line centreman that we wish we had" and "so useless we must banish him to the minors and eat his cap hit and replace with middling prospect." Jokinen falls between those two somewhere.

 

[Jet]

Don't get the false dichotomy here.

I love Pavelec. I clap when they announce his name in the starting lineup, I cheer when he makes an amazing save, I heap praise on him when he has a great game. I also recognize that he's among the bottom 8-10 starters in the league.

The two ideas (cheering for Pavs while recognizing he hasn't established himself as a good starter) aren't that hard to reconcile.

That's exactly how I feel as well, Hank. I want Pavelec to succeed. I cheer for him and am pumped when he makes a great save. Realizing a player isn't as good as he needs to be doesn't mean you dislike him.

In my perfect world, replacing Pavs comes only after determining that he will never be better than what he is now. I believe he has another season with *crossing fingers* a healthier, better blueline to find that out.

 

[scelaton]

Over the last 8 years, Oli's goal totals have been 38, 39, 34, 29, 15, 17, 23, 13 (prorated last year for a full season).

Last 4 years totals are 15, 17, 23, 13. 23 kind of looks like the anomaly. Based on the last four years, and at almost 35 years of age, scoring between 10 and 15 goals for the season is what we should expect. He has never been a set-up guy. What a waste playing him with Kane

Here we go again.
In a thread like this, where it's all about unnecessary negativity and the dangers of selective data mining, I feel a need to point out that over the 4 years preceding last year's shortened season, Jokinen's point totals were 61, 54, 50 and 57. This would have put him at #2 in team scoring on the Jets in their first season and never lower than 5th overall on the Thrashers.
A more objective analysis would suggest that last year was the anomaly.

 

[Gm0ney]

We didn't play Randy Jones or Derek Meech a 2nd year, hoping they'd have "a bounceback year". Yet, the Jokinen cult takes on religious proportions... I beli-e-e-e-e-e-eve bretheren, in the 2nd coming of an effective Jokinen who earns his pay. Face it, Jokinen is over the hill, and I really don't expect him to become a star again, any more than Meech/Jones did. Noel's insistence on playing Jokinen cost us a playoff spot last year, and could cost us again this year. And now he seems to be favouring Wright as well.

I'm actually quite happy with what Chevy has done, given what he inherited. He gave us a team that should've made the playoffs last year. It was Noel who blew it.

See, I don't know how you can criticize Noel for playing Jokinen and then praise the man who brought him in for the low, low price of $4.5 million/season.

Saying last year's team should've made the playoffs...I mean, it's the same team as the year before, minus Oduya, plus Jokinen. And we can all agree that Jokinen is garbage!

I'm happy with Chevy's drafting and am ok with his deals with Little, Bogo, Wheels, and Clitsome, but not so okay with just about everything else.

 

[Gm0ney]

Here we go again.
In a thread like this, where it's all about unnecessary negativity and the dangers of selective data mining, I feel a need to point out that over the 4 years preceding last year's shortened season, Jokinen's point totals were 61, 54, 50 and 57. This would have put him at #2 in team scoring on the Jets in their first two seasons and never lower than 5th overall on the Thrashers.
A more objective analysis would suggest that last year was the anomaly.
I am just as disappointed in Jokinen as the next guy, but playing him with Kane last year was no more of a "waste" than playing him with Iginla in Calgary.

I believe you're selectively ignoring his age: 35 this December. He hasn't scored more than 60 points since the season he turned 30. He hasn't scored over 30 goals since he was 29. There's certainly an unfavourable trendline in the data, no matter how selective we get...

 

[scelaton]

I believe you're selectively ignoring his age: 35 this December. He hasn't scored more than 60 points since the season he turned 30. He hasn't scored over 30 goals since he was 29. There's certainly an unfavourable trendline in the data, no matter how selective we get...

Yeah, but he hasn't scored less than 50 points in a full season since he turned 30 either. The trend line before last season suggested something far different than what he showed.
Look, I am not a Jokinen apologist and disputing my rebuttal is fine, but it's missing the point, viz: the negativity about certain things, particularly Jokinen and Noel, is over the top and statistics are best used objectively, to enlighten and answer new questions, not to keep hammering the same rusty old nail.

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

I may not agree with everything you say, but great post and cheers you are the type of poster most of us come here to read.

As opposed to:

Chevys an idiot for not trading down and still getting Morrisey, and Hainsey at the deadline woulda got us another first #whathaschevydone

The coach sucks he should be fired for not playing the regular roster every game and winning the preseason

we are destined for 1st pick with this roster, goaltender and management team

no way we make the playoffs

I could care less how we do this year, I just like to complain

I know the fan board posts I prefer to read.... and its how you post rather than what you post

Thanks man, I really appreciate that. I try and go for objective realism when I look at the Jets. I lived in Vancouver from 06 to 2012 and saw the whole Vancouver Canucks adventure from game 1 of Luongo to the circus that is now as they're window starts to close. That's something worth stressing about. Where the Jets are now? In a good place whether they're are playoffs this year or not.

 

[knorthern knight]

And who exactly was Noel supposed to play over Jokinen last year exactly? O'Dell? Please.

Burmistrov. And assuming that Noel had issues with Burmistrov, we still had Wellwood and Antropov to fall back on. While not exactly great, they didn't stink up the place, and would've done at least a mediocre job, versus Jokinen's terrible job. That could've put us into the playoffs.

Same with this year. I'm reading about how Scheifele isn't looking that great yet in the same threads that everyone demands that he is the 2nd line center. It's not too late to ruin the kid, people. Let's ease him into the NHL.

Scheifele doesn't have to be great, he merely has to be better than Jokinen. I don't think there's any argument that Scheifele isn't better than Jokinen, when matched with Kane and Setoguchi. Therefore, he has earned the spot. Before bringing up the bit about "rushing the kid"...

• Burmistrov was just under 19, a couple of weeks away from his 19th birthday when he started with Atlanta
• Scheifele is 20 and half, and has gone through 2 pre-season tryouts already, and did not have to adapt to another country, and learn another language

There is a middle ground between "2nd line centreman that we wish we had" and "so useless we must banish him to the minors and eat his cap hit and replace with middling prospect." Jokinen falls between those two somewhere.

Well he's obviously not 2nd line centre material, so please let's stop destroying Kane's career by weighing him down with that boat anchor.

 

[knorthern knight]

See, I don't know how you can criticize Noel for playing Jokinen and then praise the man who brought him in for the low, low price of $4.5 million/season.

• Chevy made a mistake signing Jokinen, no two ways about it. Nobody's psychic.
• Noel made a similar mistake at the beginning of the season, playing Jokinen at #2C
• BUT Noel repeated that same mistake again, and again, and again, game after game after game, when it was obvious that Jokinen was not the answer. The equivalant for Chevy would be for him to sign Jokinen to another couple of extensions

Saying last year's team should've made the playoffs...I mean, it's the same team as the year before, minus Oduya, plus Jokinen. And we can all agree that Jokinen is garbage!

We ended up 4 points behind the Islanders, and we had a higher ROW tie-breaker. http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm?season=20122013&type=con If we won the April 2nd game in regulation http://jets.nhl.com/club/teamvsteamdetails.htm?season=20122013&team=NYI that would have been sufficient to put us in the playoffs. Or convert any other 2 regulation losses to regulation wins, and we would've been in the playoffs.

 

[Positive]

Jokinen Pavelec.

 

[garret9]

Eh I don't blame Chevy for signing Jokinen. You can't predict sh%'s to be that low, it's like predicting lightning without a computer or any tools.
There's still no doubt that Jokinen>Stapleton and Ponikarovsky>Glass for bottom 6 options...
I still think last years team was a low playoff team if optimized.

You can note that some players do better with/away certain other players and adjust accordingly.
You can notice that there are certain patterns that exist and use them to your advantage, or at least minimize the damage.

 

[Gnova]

• Chevy made a mistake signing Jokinen, no two ways about it. Nobody's psychic.
• Noel made a similar mistake at the beginning of the season, playing Jokinen at #2C
• BUT Noel repeated that same mistake again, and again, and again, game after game after game, when it was obvious that Jokinen was not the answer. The equivalant for Chevy would be for him to sign Jokinen to another couple of extensions

We ended up 4 points behind the Islanders, and we had a higher ROW tie-breaker. http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm?season=20122013&type=con If we won the April 2nd game in regulation http://jets.nhl.com/club/teamvsteamdetails.htm?season=20122013&team=NYI that would have been sufficient to put us in the playoffs. Or convert any other 2 regulation losses to regulation wins, and we would've been in the playoffs.

Noel took a team that most "experts" had finishing 14th to within a couple wins to making the playoffs yet somehow he isn't a good coach.

 

[Stej]

Admittedly I'm getting a little confused with the positives and negatives now that there is a thread for each, but I think we're supposed to be positive in the negative thread, so here goes.

I usually play my best rounds of golf after my worst warm-up sessions at the driving range.

*drops mic and walks off stage*

 

[GJF]

Admittedly I'm getting a little confused with the positives and negatives now that there is a thread for each, but I think we're supposed to be positive in the negative thread, so here goes.

I usually play my best rounds of golf after my worst warm-up sessions at the driving range.

*drops mic and walks off stage*

**** free world, 313!

 

[garret9]

Noel took a team that most "experts" had finishing 14th to within a couple wins to making the playoffs yet somehow he isn't a good coach.

It's possible. Depends how solid you can consider those "experts" "predictions". The fact that they tend to be pretty far off right there should dismiss that notion.

I found those experts predictions to be baseless.

It was a team that improved its depth and the youth were taking larger roles, yet they were expecting a fall down? I don't think it can be definitively placed as a coach optimizing a bottom team into the middle.

Statistically (based off of numbers that tend to be far more predictive than those experts pre-season predictions) and on paper I saw a team that should fall at 3 or 6-10 in the East. They were in the lower area of that range.

I don't definitively say Noel sucks, nor do I think he does.

I do have a decent hunch he has a weakness with player allocation and falling into the trap of being overly swayed by large-profile low-occurrence events... however, even I know I could be wrong and will wait and see.

 

[Guerzy]

Eh I don't blame Chevy for signing Jokinen. You can't predict sh%'s to be that low, it's like predicting lightning without a computer or any tools.
There's still no doubt that Jokinen>Stapleton and Ponikarovsky>Glass for bottom 6 options...
I still think last years team was a low playoff team if optimized.

You can note that some players do better with/away certain other players and adjust accordingly.
You can notice that there are certain patterns that exist and use them to your advantage, or at least minimize the damage.

We're on the same page re; last years team and its playoff chances. I think we did indeed have a playoff team (roster) on paper that could have easily been a playoff team had a few areas clicked for us and we got the performances out of some guys we needed.

For example, had Jokinen of put in a respectable year and earned his salary, perhaps we make the playoffs on that alone. If Pavelec carried a better SV%, perhaps that does the trick. If Enstrom/Byfuglien/Bogosian remained healthy as a top 3 defensive unit, maybe that improves us just enough. If depth players such as Wellwood and/or Burmistrov contributed offensively, that likely would have helped.

So for me, we did indeed have a playoff team on paper, we just didn't get the performances we needed to get us there. That's just how it goes. I pegged last years roster as a potential playoff team, or a team right on the fence. At the end of the day they fell somewhere in line with my expectations, unfortunately missing out, however.


Hopefully this year we get the performances we need to lift this team into playing hockey in the Spring.

 

[pcanuck]

Unfortunately I will disagree with the initial post. I would like to be an optimist but I am also someone who is living in reality. I don't drink the TNSE TSN koolaid.

The Atlanta Thrashers were a terrible hockey team and got much worse by trading Kovalchuk for nothing. When TNSE purchased the team, the cupboards were bare. Instead of trading value to replenish the cupboards quickly, the rookie GM chose a wait and see (draft only) approach. We've seen the results - a GM who does very little to acquire talent and a coach who after two seasons is not able to motivate good to great players.

I said this in the first months of the first year that Noel needed to go. He has learned nothing from his offensive shut down philosophy and wheel and deal defencemen. D need to play D and transition the puck to goal scoring forwards. Each player needs a role. Noel does not believe either. People laughed at me and said I was full of it. I said it the second year. I'm saying it again in year three. Except I am adding an asterisk and I now believe it is both Noel and Chevy who have to go.

I don't expect every fan to agree with me but the NHL is NO DIFFERENT than any other league. You need to win now. The Jets have not. They are inconsistent and their coaching and management is now being questioned. TNSE's response to losing is to resign the coach, the GM and give several players who have shown SOME talent MONSTER long term franchise deals. TNSE has faith. I don't care about faith. I want wins not hope. Paying $80-200 for a game ticket will wane on others as well. The boo birds were out last year and I expect to hear them more often this year.

Simply put, the philosophies of the GM and coach haven't inspired me or made me or other NHL pundits believe they are any more than a bottom dweller. This team needs new leadership with a GM and coach who have both the needed philosophy and experience. Until that time comes, the Jets may be playing a lot of golf during the playoffs.

 

[King Woodballs]

Unfortunately I will disagree with the initial post. I would like to be an optimist but I am also someone who is living in reality. I don't drink the TNSE TSN koolaid.

The Atlanta Thrashers were a terrible hockey team and got much worse by trading Kovalchuk for nothing. When TNSE purchased the team, the cupboards were bare. Instead of trading value to replenish the cupboards quickly, the rookie GM chose a wait and see (draft only) approach. We've seen the results - a GM who does very little to acquire talent and a coach who after two seasons is not able to motivate good to great players.

I said this in the first months of the first year that Noel needed to go. He has learned nothing from his offensive shut down philosophy and wheel and deal defencemen. D need to play D and transition the puck to goal scoring forwards. Each player needs a role. Noel does not believe either. People laughed at me and said I was full of it. I said it the second year. I'm saying it again in year three. Except I am adding an asterisk and I now believe it is both Noel and Chevy who have to go.

I don't expect every fan to agree with me but the NHL is NO DIFFERENT than any other league. You need to win now. The Jets have not. They are inconsistent and their coaching and management is now being questioned. TNSE's response to losing is to resign the coach, the GM and give several players who have shown SOME talent MONSTER long term franchise deals. TNSE has faith. I don't care about faith. I want wins not hope. Paying $80-200 for a game ticket will wane on others as well. The boo birds were out last year and I expect to hear them more often this year.

Simply put, the philosophies of the GM and coach haven't inspired me or made me or other NHL pundits believe they are any more than a bottom dweller. This team needs new leadership with a GM and coach who have both the needed philosophy and experience. Until that time comes, the Jets may be playing a lot of golf during the playoffs.

You have not been listening to the owner of huge Jets for the last two and a half years then.

Like it or lump it all the complaining about the draft and develop process will get you no where

 

[Gnova]

You have not been listening to the owner of huge Jets for the last two and a half years then.

Like it or lump it all the complaining about the draft and develop process will get you no where

I don't understand people making a decisions to cheer for a team that does not mesh with their philosophy of how teams should operate.
I knew exactly what I was getting myself attached to before I even saw the new Jets logo and they have been true to their word.

 

[King Woodballs]

I don't understand people making a decisions to cheer for a team that does not mesh with their philosophy of how teams should operate.
I knew exactly what I was getting myself attached to before I even saw the new Jets logo and they have been true to their word.

My point is, why do you need to post the exact same thing over and over and over and over about how you don't like the teams philosophy.
Yeah, we get it.

Further more, if it is such a big issue to you, why do you "cheer" for the Jets then

 

[allan5oh]

We haven't made the playoffs, but nobody can deny the following three things:

1) our prospect quality and quantity has improved. When the jets moved we were bottom of the league, now most experts have us around 12th.

2) our year end results have improved each year.

3) our roster has improved each year.


To get all three accomplished is pretty good imo. Things aren't as cut and dry as some think.

 

[Gnova]

My point is, why do you need to post the exact same thing over and over and over and over about how you don't like the teams philosophy.
Yeah, we get it.

Further more, if it is such a big issue to you, why do you "cheer" for the Jets then

I was agreeing with you, not arguing.

 

[arby18]

I think it's healthy to have a portion of a fanbase approach things from the pessimistic angle. Especially here in Winnipeg, where it's hard to find an ill word spoken on the radio or written in the papers.

I have a negative view of the Jets because IMO they have made multiple questionable decisions. It's not all doom and gloom as the future does look brighter than it did when the team came back, but that doesn't change the fact that I believe this season will be a long one for Jets fans.

Feel free to disagree with me as I enjoy having the debate. But I don't see the issue with being unimpressed with many of the decisions Chevy, Noel and co. have made. If you want nothing but positivity, listen to TSN1290 or read the Free Press.

 

[wpgsilver]

I think it's healthy to have a portion of a fanbase approach things from the pessimistic angle. Especially here in Winnipeg, where it's hard to find an ill word spoken on the radio or written in the papers.

I have a negative view of the Jets because IMO they have made multiple questionable decisions. It's not all doom and gloom as the future does look brighter than it did when the team came back, but that doesn't change the fact that I believe this season will be a long one for Jets fans.

Feel free to disagree with me as I enjoy having the debate. But I don't see the issue with being unimpressed with many of the decisions Chevy, Noel and co. have made. If you want nothing but positivity, listen to TSN1290 or read the Free Press.

Care to elaborate on the questionable decisions.
Not saying they've been perfected, I'm just curious what moves you didn't agree with.

BTW I have no intention on jumping on you and saying you're wrong, because thought out dissenting opinions make this place more interesting.