Fairness for the NHLPA

[Crosbyfan]

This is interesting... but both are necessary to get the job done... and one could argue that it's a simple case of overpayment for someone who is rather incompetent.

Anyhow, I think this is really bending the existing definition of "subsidize"

This post wasn't directed at me but you're right of course. I have used a very broad definition of the term. "Effective subsidy" would be more accurate. Normally a third party (usually government/public) would be involved with a subsidy.

I do, however, believe I used the term consistently and within the broader definition.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Neither. And this example is not helpful.

Parents, volunteers and the general public do in fact subsidize players pretty much until they are ready for pro. The players don't subsidize anything, as they are not giving up anything they are "entitled" to. There is a new contract being negotiated. Are they going to take less in this contract? Yes. That still doesn't have anything to do with subsidy. You have chosen the wrong word to explain what your idea.

Here's a question: Did the previous CBA artificially raise contracts above market value?

 

[me2]

This post wasn't directed at me but you're right of course. I have used a very broad definition of the term. "Effective subsidy" would be more accurate. Normally a third party (usually government/public) would be involved with a subsidy.

I do, however, believe I used the term consistently and within the broader definition.

The owners have been subsidising the players for most of the last CBA. The owners are just revoking the subsidies paid to the players. The players aren't subsidising anything, as shown by their earning capacity when not playing NHL hockey.

 

[me2]

Here's a question: Did the previous CBA artificially raise contracts above market value?

A better question is: did the previous CBA artificially raise market value?

 

[me2]

PS I'm still waiting for a list of rinks/locations for the new players league.

 

[YellHockey*]

PS I'm still waiting for a list of rinks/locations for the new players league.

Halifax Metro Center
Le Colisee
Olympic Stadium
Ottawa Civic Centre
Skydome
Copps Coliseum
John Labatt Centre
MTS Centre
Saskatchewan Place
Calgary Corral
Northlands AgriCom
BC Place
Save-On-Foods Memorial Centre

 

[Crosbyfan]

PS I'm still waiting for a list of rinks/locations for the new players league.

The list of 8,000+ rinks is too long. I think you're thinking 16,000+. The break even point for the NHLPA would be pretty low since they already have the players.

 

[Crosbyfan]

A better question is: did the previous CBA artificially raise market value?

That's interesting but you could also ask; did owners egos "artificially" raise market value?

 

[quat]

Here's a question: Did the previous CBA artificially raise contracts above market value?

Hmm. I don't think so. What ever a player receives in a contract becomes part of the market. I don't think there was anything artificial about what was paid to the players.

The past CBA didn't protect the smaller market franchises from the larger, or the whole league from a couple of moronic owners.

I don't care if Owners lose money, but I do care about the league being healthy...

 

[me2]

Olympic Stadium in montreal & Skydome in TO? Population centres to make it worthwhile, but are they really suitable for hockey?



WORTHWHILE

BC Place

Tick. Got the size and the population. But they also have the Nucks. Fans might well skip the NHLPA league out of principal. Should be able to get 7000-8000 at NHL prices.

Le Colisee QUEBEC

good seating and good enough population. See Copps.


QUESTIONABLE

Ottawa Civic Centre

capacity 10,755, population adequate. The rink the sent the Sens broke attracts back the players at rates that wouldn't have sent the Sens broke. The irony in that. Questionable whether they'll attract enough Sens fans. Competing with the 67s for hockey fans. I wouldn't be putting money on success here.

John Labatt Centre LONDON

9,100. Population 432K. Decent population, enough to fill the rink with tickets around $25-30 mark.

Saskatchewan Place

13,000 is adequate for size. Who is putting up the dough to lock in dates (its a fairly busy arena)? Population of <250K won't support NHL prices, try AHL prices.

MTS Centre Winnipeg

Holds 15,015 and Winnipeg has the population to support $30 tickets (sell 10000/game). Competing with the Moose which sucks away market. Fans will have to choose between a fly by night team designed to be abandoned during the season or the home town Moose.

Copps Coliseum HAMILTON

Has the size and a solid population. Never make a lot of money but might be adequate. Competing with a real team in the AHL Bulldogs. Problems with allegences which will hurt the Bulldogs and any NHLPA team.

Halifax Metro Center

Seating around 10000, population AHL sized in 359,183. Question whether they could make money competing against the mooseheads.


NOT WORTHWHILE

Save-On-Foods Memorial Centre VICTORIA

7000 seats. Metro population of 326,000. AHL type money for ticket prices and ticket sales.

Calgary Corral

Barely enough to be worthwhile at 7,424. Will struggle to sell out given that flames fans would be siding with the NHL & the Flames over this.

Northlands AgriCom EDMONTON

Ice event hold 3964. Edmonton have been leading the charge against the players. Its way too small and the population won't support it.




====================================

BC Place
Quebec
whatever they can scrounge up in TO and Montreal.
Winnipeg and Hamilton are marginal because of their AHL teams.


That looks pretty bleak unless the players are prepared to work for AHL wages. If they want AHL wages why don't they just sign with AHL teams in the first place.

 

[PecaFan]

Can BC Place even hold ice events? Don't remember any, and their web page says nothing about it with a quick scan.

You've also got problems with exclusivity agreements. Primary tenants often have them, and will refuse to allow other tenants in, even in different sports. Happened just last week here in Vancouver, where the Junior hockey team blocked the lacrosse team from booking the arena.

Nope, if the players want to start a new league, they're going to have to do it the old fashioned way, the way the owners built the NHL. By spending a few billion bucks.

 

[me2]

Can BC Place even hold ice events? Don't remember any, and their web page says nothing about it with a quick scan.

You've also got problems with exclusivity agreements. Primary tenants often have them, and will refuse to allow other tenants in, even in different sports. Happened just last week here in Vancouver, where the Junior hockey team blocked the lacrosse team from booking the arena.

Nope, if the players want to start a new league, they're going to have to do it the old fashioned way, the way the owners built the NHL. By spending a few billion bucks.

I assumed he meant the Pacific Coliseum. Then again the Giants have first dibs on that. NHLPA would have to schedule its games around the WHL and any another prebooked events. It would also have to pay for cancelled dates if the NHL season restarted.

 

[Hockey_Nut99]

This is hilarious. These Bob Goodenow apprentices think the players can start a new league? LOL

Here's a question. The players WILL NOT agree to a cap in the NHL. A cap that reduces the league average to a minut 1.3 Million *Sarcasm*...Then you guys say the players can make their own league and play under their own cap? LOL..Talk about contradicting yourselves. Why would they not want to play with a cap in the best league there is(where they would get the most money compared to any other league), yet would play in some crappy start up league with a cap? For spite?

 

[PecaFan]

I assumed he meant the Pacific Coliseum. Then again the Giants have first dibs on that. NHLPA would have to schedule its games around the WHL and any another prebooked events. It would also have to pay for cancelled dates if the NHL season restarted.

Since the Giants blocked the lacrosse team, I think you can bet the family jewels that they'd block another hockey team from using the Coliseum. It's definitely out.

 

[me2]

Since the Giants blocked the lacrosse team, I think you can bet the family jewels that they'd block another hockey team from using the Coliseum. It's definitely out.

Brings into question the availability of

MTS Centre Winnipeg - MOOSE
Copps - Bulldogs
Ottawa Civic Centre - 67s
Halifax - Mooseheads
Victoria Save on Foods - ECHL team Salmon Kings
John Labatt Centre LONDON - Knights

How would they enjoy the competition from the NHLPA teams. Couldn't be good for sales. You'd think most would object if they could. The Salmon Kings would struggle to survive with superior pro-hockey in the same arena, can't see they' aprrove it and I doubt the rink would risk losing the Salmon Kings for bunch players that can't wait to blow off the rink and Victoria.

 

[Crosbyfan]

This is hilarious. These Bob Goodenow apprentices think the players can start a new league? LOL

Here's a question. The players WILL NOT agree to a cap in the NHL. A cap that reduces the league average to a minut 1.3 Million *Sarcasm*...Then you guys say the players can make their own league and play under their own cap? LOL..Talk about contradicting yourselves. Why would they not want to play with a cap in the best league there is(where they would get the most money compared to any other league), yet would play in some crappy start up league with a cap? For spite?

For (potential future) equity.

 

[Blind Gardien]

Why would they not want to play with a cap in the best league there is(where they would get the most money compared to any other league), yet would play in some crappy start up league with a cap? For spite?

I wouldn't underestimate the impact of spite in whatever comes out this whole CBA mess.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

For (potential future) equity.

Potential equity? So the NHL, which has billions tied up in it, is considered a white elephant and a money loser, yet the players are going to invest the majority of their earnings into this new venture? And they are not going to see the failures of the WHA, USFL, XFL, etc. as a harbringer of doom and decide it is a stupid idea? Okay. Believe what you like, but I just don't see anyone being silly enough to invest their money in this, especially the players who are focused on making money with no risk. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Potential equity? So the NHL, which has billions tied up in it, is considered a white elephant and a money loser, yet the players are going to invest the majority of their earnings into this new venture? And they are not going to see the failures of the WHA, USFL, XFL, etc. as a harbringer of doom and decide it is a stupid idea? Okay. Believe what you like, but I just don't see anyone being silly enough to invest their money in this, especially the players who are focused on making money with no risk. Doesn't make sense.

What's the biggest obstacle in starting a new major league?

Players!

What does the NHLPA have an abundance of?

Players!

 

[chriss_co]

You just don't understand, do you?

We've got three leagues in the NHL

We've got the real major league teams. (Detroit, Rangers, Philly, Colorado, etc)

We've got a bunch of teams that could be major league teams, with decent ownership and talented management (St. Louis, LA, Vancouver, Montreal)


ANd then we've got a whole slew of teams that have no business in a major league (Carolina, Edmonton, Calgary, Nashville etc.)

You can bet that the top tier teams won't go home crying if the CBA is settled without a salary cap.
They are along for the ride. They'll take the automatic $20 Million in profits a cap delivers. But they also have fun trying to compete for the cup, every single season.

The middle teams would probably settle for a luxury tax and a salary rollback.

The bottom teams are losing their shirts.

It wasn't the bottom teams that raised salaries like crazy. (Although Karmanos probably made the bonehead move of the 90s when he tried to sign RFA Fedorov to a contract that was wholly ridiculous. So, he's getting what he deserved)
It was the top teams, and the middle teams trying to act like top teams.

The top teams haven't changed their minds about much, IMO.

I disagree.. first of all, i dont think the owners are divided into 3 groups in their position of what the CBA should be... yes, the 'big' teams can live with a luxory tax but you know what, at the end of the day a 30 team league is worth more than a 20 team league.

Losing teams does not benefit these owners and they understand that. That is why the owners are united in wanting a salary cap.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

What's the biggest obstacle in starting a new major league?

Players!

No, the biggest obstacle in starting a new league is capital. You need capital to make this work and you need people with very deep pockets. You need billions of dollars to build out a legaue that will support 700 players. You need 30 teams in 30 markets which do not have agreements with buildings and will have a following or the capital you raised is going to be wasted. There just aren't enough arenas that are of the size you suggest.

If the players were serious about this they would promote an international super league and try to get into as many of the big buildings as they can in Europe and snap up the buildings no one wants anything to do with here in North America (Hamilton, Quebec, Winnipeg, Portland, etc.). They might stand a chance at making it work. Especially if they were smart and broke the players up into teams that represented their regions and could play on the local pride issue. But the players aren't this smart and still don't have enough money to make it happen. They are done and just don't know it yet.

Seriously, look at the travelling Worldstars road show and how badly that is being received. Have they sold out a game in Europe yet? How are they going to sell out the big buildings if they can't sell out the 8-10,000 seat halls? The players will hopefully see just how tough an enterprise they are trying to undertake and seel the err in their ways. Its better to make $1.3 million guaranteed than it is to lose your retirement money in a risky venture driven by spite.

 

[djhn579]

What's the biggest obstacle in starting a new major league?

Players!

What does the NHLPA have an abundance of?

Players!

I would have thought money would be the biggest obstacle. You can have a million players, but you have to pay them, equip them, insure them, train them, feed them (on the road), house them (on the road), pay a front office staff, pay a coaching staff, pay a scouting staff, and rent an arena. And that is only what I can think of off the top of my head...

 

[Digger12]

What's the biggest obstacle in starting a new major league?

Players!

What does the NHLPA have an abundance of?

Players!

Actually, the biggest obstacle is money.

Let's be real here...many of today's players have a hard enough time starting up a restaurant that doesn't go bankrupt with its first year, yet people wax poetic about how they could start up a player-run league?

And really, to what end would hockey fans want to see this? Just to be spiteful? I'm sure there are some players so bent out of shape that they might want to do this, but I think the bulk of that 700 member players association would much rather just get on with playing hockey.

 

[Crosbyfan]

OK , so it is money.
I guess I considered that a given.

Why is so much more capital required for a major league than semi-pro?

Players salaries !

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

OK , so it is money.
I guess I considered that a given.

Why is so much more capital required for a major league than semi-pro?

Players salaries !

Uh huh. Now you're starting to get it. The players are not going to play for free, especially those big name players that have said so many stupid things in the media. When you have players making millions of dollars you need lots of fans. How many fans are going to run right out and support a new league that is charging $100 a pop for a ticket? This is what you're going to see for prices. The amount of money required to cover the salaries, insurance and building costs alone are going to be outrageous. Its not an option. Not at all. Its logistically not feasible.