Post-Game Talk: F____ Woodcroft/Holland

[ToeMcDrag83]

Haven't posted a lot this year. Depressing season.

I can't look at that defense without cringing. Every single one of them is playing 1 spot higher than they should.
I still feel the sting of the probably 7 or 8 blown leads this year that would've at least had us 10 points higher in the standings.
I don't understand how we can be top 5 in GF, but still have bottom 5 secondary/tertiary and even strength offense.
I don't understand how Woodcroft who identified issues with our breakout, backcheck and forecheck from the Tippett era, but went back to doing those exact stupid things this year.
MSM infuriatingly condescending to any fan suggestions for improvement/accountability/criticism.
And Mr. Patience calmly watching it all from his toilet seat.

There is no buffer of wins this year or personnel that will singlehandedly take us on run like last year.
The blown leads to me are the 2 or 3 points difference we will miss the playoffs by in April, I can see it already.

I'll keep watching because I'm addicted like so many of us, but I didn't think I'd feel this type of apathy on such a quick turnaround from the WCF. If I knew that McDavid series winning goal against the Flames was the last high point we'd see as Oilers fans over the next year, I would've just looped it on repeat and pretended 22-23 doesn't exist. Per usual, the Oilers don't know what rock bottom is and keep digging.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Ken Holland has a reputation for being a soft touch who happily caves in on any negotiation. (See his what do you want me to do squeeze them') Thus making any changes now is tough as other teams rightfully so ask for the sun the moon and the stars and squeeze him.

Ken Holland painted himself into a corner by handing out stupid multi year deals to players who do not deserve it thus putting us in perpetual cap crunch.

I also think patient actually means lazy.

Gotta say you're probably right on this. Holland has been ardent in his career in being a GM who hangs onto what he's got. But generally that trait would be successful in todays NHL and given the importance of accruing, keeping assets and having a mix of types of contracts and with some ELC's in there that can play.

In anycase Hollands overall direction is competent. One can critique his moves decisions but they are not Chiarelli level bizarre deepsixing a lineup. Every GM has some bad contracts on their plate, some under performers etc. But that Holland is still adding in players like Kostin or Kane (not comparing, just saying, is indication of him being even more creative than the average NHL GM. As with all managers good and bad in them exist. You won't find perfection in the position. So you take what Holland does well and maybe supplant it with an advisor, somebody maybe more into player stock or assessment.

 

[Soundwave]

Ken Holland has a reputation for being a soft touch who happily caves in on any negotiation. (See his what do you want me to do squeeze them') Thus making any changes now is tough as other teams rightfully so ask for the sun the moon and the stars and squeeze him.

Ken Holland painted himself into a corner by handing out stupid multi year deals to players who do not deserve it thus putting us in perpetual cap crunch.

I also think patient actually means lazy.

Oh for sure. No chance Holland puts in as many hours at this as guys like Sakic or Yzerman do. He got spoiled by the fact that Detroit was a decade ahead of other teams in scouting Europe and Russia, but that time has long passed.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You're telling me our 9 million dollar guy in Nurse isn't good enough?

On a night when Nurse is facing a legend like Drew Doughty as an opponent whatever he does is going to be a bad look. There simply are few D in the world that can transform games and teams and even at age 33 people can still spot him doing it. In his prime he was arguably the best D on the planet.

So LA are paying 11M longterm to retain their franchise player. At the time it was widely viewed as a disaster contract, a paying for past success. Most pundits viewed that it would sink the LA cap for a long time and in the Coke and stuff recriminations after the last cup W such views could certainly be valid.

But Doughty turned it around and kept trying to be the player he can be. So that half way into his contract he's still bringing the worth. There will be a time period in the respective contracts of Nurse/Doughty wherein Nurse is the better D, if not the better contract. These are points in time. A young club has injected enthusiasm into Drew Doughty. He really wants to be part of it, to dial back he clock. With different circumstance Drew could be not engaged by now.

Nurse really is our 7M guy and I would still give him that pay twice.

 

[Konami McDavid]

Katz is raking it in hand over fist, why would he change anything?

I absolutely understand this sentiment, and have ascribed to it in the past. However, I consider Katz an adept businessman. Businesses that stagnate because they are performing in the present without consideration for future trends tend to decline. It is analogous to a business that has a strong performing product so they neglect innovation. Eventually the lack of forward thinking will catch up, and the business will decline/die.

I feel the Oiler's organization used up all the patience of the fanbase through the DoD. I feel the amount of fans that would rather keep their money than support a team that causes them so much disappointment will only increase as long as the on-ice product is less than average.

Like I said though, this is just an opinion and I expect many to tear holes in it. I just really need to vent my frustration for this team. Thank you for responding so I could continue my rant.

What are your thoughts for the cause of the uninspired on-ice product?

 

[McDNicks17]

Just noticed Puljujarvi is leading the team in fights.

This might be the softest team in NHL history.

 

[K1984]

Haven't posted a lot this year. Depressing season.

I can't look at that defense without cringing. Every single one of them is playing 1 spot higher than they should.
I still feel the sting of the probably 7 or 8 blown leads this year that would've at least had us 10 points higher in the standings.
I don't understand how we can be top 5 in GF, but still have bottom 5 secondary/tertiary and even strength offense.
I don't understand how Woodcroft who identified issues with our breakout, backcheck and forecheck from the Tippett era, but went back to doing those exact stupid things this year.
MSM infuriatingly condescending to any fan suggestions for improvement/accountability/criticism.
And Mr. Patience calmly watching it all from his toilet seat.

There is no buffer of wins this year or personnel that will singlehandedly take us on run like last year.
The blown leads to me are the 2 or 3 points difference we will miss the playoffs by in April, I can see it already.

I'll keep watching because I'm addicted like so many of us, but I didn't think I'd feel this type of apathy on such a quick turnaround from the WCF. If I knew that McDavid series winning goal against the Flames was the last high point we'd see as Oilers fans over the next year, I would've just looped it on repeat and pretended 22-23 doesn't exist. Per usual, the Oilers don't know what rock bottom is and keep digging.

This is the most frustrating thing about all of it.

To be honest this debacle might be easier to digest if the systems and roster deployment made sense, but we just aren't good enough. If the team was given every chance to succeed, but just don't. Woodcroft isn't giving the team that opportunity this year or anything even close. If we could put him in a time machine back to last year when he came in and just did things that made straight up sense then that would be great, but instead it appears he watched tape of when Tippett coached the team and decided to just go back to doing that.

I don't know what this team is to be honest because essentially every part of our system play makes zero sense. Stretch pass breakout/in - stupid. System change on the PK for no coherent reason - stupid. Thumb in the air personnel deployment on the PK - stupid. Not changing defense pair deployment despite it being painfully obvious it needs to happen - stupid. Neutral zone defensive structure - stupid. I could go on.

There isn't a single aspect of the way this team plays from a coaching perspective that makes any sense at all at the moment. So I honestly don't know if this team needs to be stripped down or are only 1-2 quality players away because we aren't getting anything close to the best out of the group we have. If Holland did his f***ing job in any respect he would be meeting with Woodcroft and asking why the f*** he's doing all this dumb shit. I can guarantee that this conversation hasn't happened.

 

[SnipeShowJB11]

This post is good contradiction. The bolded shows me you get it, but that you confound your own clarity.

The STL Blues Cup win in 2019 shows theres always hope.

The "badly constructed team " sucks, but direct the ire to Chiarelli, Nicholson that made it so.

On the whole there have been key good improvements under Holland. To wit Kane addition, Hyman addition, now Kostin and even thing like cleaning up the goalie shed to make way for Sminner and now adding in Campbell who I still feel is better than being given credit for this season.

The Oilers are short maybe 2 players. If they even had Kane right now we wouldn't be talking much about this.

The realities of a cap roster is that teams with high rung talent will have large contracts for those and trouble balancing out the cap. True the Nurse overpay is real but by maybe 2-3M. It hurts, but not necessarily a deal breaker. Not like Weeger, Pooper, and Kahhhhdriiii in Calgary.

Chin up Oilers fans. Its always possible for the Oilers to go on a run and they've done it basically every back half of season in recent years. The same team you're seeing treading water now can put an 8-2 stretch on.

Burn it up real good is the Chiarelli approach. If thats really what you think your direction would be worse than his.

You make great points, but it's not just about Kane. These guys all do not play defensive hockey and the actual D suck.

They don't play hockey the proper way at all. It's why we suck at evens. I personally feel like it all comes down to accountability. These guys are all in the NHL. They made it. Something is missing.

I hate to say it, but leadership to me is missing here

Just noticed Puljujarvi is leading the team in fights.

This might be the softest team in NHL history.

That is the craziest stat I heard this morning lol.

 

[Oilhawks]

I agree with the bolded part.
Personally I have no issue with it. Having San Jose & Ottawa -like expansion was bad.

Pretty rich complaints coming from a fan of the team with a billionaire owner, beautiful new arena, Connor & Leon, discount Kane, 5 modern cups, and draft lottery luck of the gods. I doubt many fanbases would feel sympathy for you about how unfair the situation is for Edmonton.

Oilers could have easily had 5 of the current Kraken players. In fact it seems we're looking for a Adam Larsson -type player, but we have a Darnell Nurse -type player.

All of what you said, about this fanbase needing to 'suck it up' or whatever the point of that was, is that it's all undone by idiot ownership that collects human hockey cards over hiring appropriate and competent management to ice a competitive roster. Which is part of why you get a discount Kane, for example, over less sexy names and actual depth (and I love Kane). As if we have any actual control on it. We can still complain.

Which 5 Kraken players could they have had? Eberle, Schultz, Tolvanen (waivers)...Larsson? Everyone knows Larsson wasn't signing here because apparently unlike most people that have to live in the place where their parents, close friends died and don't have the luxury (money, job mobility etc) to just run away instead of processing things. He up and left and was not coming back.

And regarding the complaints about the expansion, who gives a shit what teams I cheer for? They're still valid complaints

Just because this is a shit org with an idiot owner doesn't mean that the NHL still isn't a garbage 3rd tier pro sports league that is propped up by hockey obsessed Canadians. It's a shit product, the recent joke expansions are just part of the laundry list like: junk cap set up, fake parity, NMCs that f*** Canadian teams, and some of the worst and convoluted officiating in pro sports.

the same Joel Quenneville that, despite having elite Blues (and Avs) teams...couldn't get it done when it mattered and took him 13 years as head coach to finally win a Cup?

What, was he supposed to win a cup with every team to be better than your career losers in Todd and Tippett? Lol, I guess 3 isn't enough.

 

[gordonhught]

Those refs in the LA game let Danault beat up on JP, but when Hyman was ready to hammer Durzi, refs jumped right in. Same with Kostin. Once Kostin had Lemieux down, refs jumped right in.

Good for JP. I give him a lot of heat, but he still tried.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I agree with the bolded part.
Personally I have no issue with it. Having San Jose & Ottawa -like expansion was bad.

Pretty rich complaints coming from a fan of the team with a billionaire owner, beautiful new arena, Connor & Leon, discount Kane, 5 modern cups, and draft lottery luck of the gods. I doubt many fanbases would feel sympathy for you about how unfair the situation is for Edmonton.

Oilers could have easily had 5 of the current Kraken players. In fact it seems we're looking for a Adam Larsson -type player, but we have a Darnell Nurse -type player.

You clearly haven't heard of the Elks. heh. Fan content can often times be a combo of things. Theres whole other factors I can't get into here that also make the Edmonton experience difficult. For instance economy and selective impacts on it.

In anycase Edmontonians dug in on that arena. Neither the CRL, or Parking levies or other agreements in the package are paying for themselves. Neither was the DT revitalizing monetized for anybody but Katz.

In anycase fanbases that have had some success would like some more. This being the case whether it be Montreal Canadiens, Bayern Munich, etc.

The way I look at it is its pretty remarkable to have been fans of a team in glory years that now have McDrai/Kane and players like that. For all those complaining vociferously win or lose this is the entertainment high mark of the franchise since the glory years. They really are.

This team is entertaining most of the time and even in losing theres real quality plays and entertainment.

So that on a first world level of problems having had Gretzky, Mess, Kurri, McD, Drai, Kane isn't a problem. I try to enjoy the now.

 

[ToeMcDrag83]

This is the most frustrating thing about all of it.

To be honest this debacle might be easier to digest if the systems and roster deployment made sense, but we just aren't good enough. If the team was given every chance to succeed, but just don't. Woodcroft isn't giving the team that opportunity this year or anything even close. If we could put him in a time machine back to last year when he came in and just did things that made straight up sense then that would be great, but instead it appears he watched tape of when Tippett coached the team and decided to just go back to doing that.

I don't know what this team is to be honest because essentially every part of our system play makes zero sense. Stretch pass breakout/in - stupid. System change on the PK for no coherent reason - stupid. Thumb in the air personnel deployment on the PK - stupid. Not changing defense pair deployment despite it being painfully obvious it needs to happen - stupid. Neutral zone defensive structure - stupid. I could go on.

There isn't a single aspect of the way this team plays from a coaching perspective that makes any sense at all at the moment. So I honestly don't know if this team needs to be stripped down or are only 1-2 quality players away because we aren't getting anything close to the best out of the group we have. If Holland did his f***ing job in any respect he would be meeting with Woodcroft and asking why the f*** he's doing all this dumb shit. I can guarantee that this conversation hasn't happened.

Agreed.

Even if he wanted to deploy a change in strategy, it's not being executed at all right.

Like stretch pass tip-in breakouts - fine, there's other teams that do it. But where the hell is your forechecker hitting the line with speed after the tip? Why aren't the D doing it quickly and instead waiting for neutral zone coverage to settle in?
It's just the wrong choice for the way this team is made up. How many icings have we seen this year, because our defense struggle to make 10' passes, forget stretch passes.
That's just the breakout.

PK deployment is ridiculous like you said. We knew Connor's minutes were a problem prior to Tippett firing, and there was some control when Woodcroft came on, But now he's on the PK? So we can get a shorthanded chance once every 5 games and give up the most PP goals in the league? Just kill the damn penalty.

Just head-scratching crap everywhere.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Those refs in the LA game let Danault beat up on JP, but when Hyman was ready to hammer Durzi, refs jumped right in. Same with Kostin. Once Kostin had Lemieux down, refs jumped right in.

Good for JP. I give him a lot of heat, but he still tried.

Danault is fire. The compete level in everything he does is commendable. For sure even in a fight Danault is going to bring it. One senses a spirit like this has had some fights in life. Pulju on the other hand is no fighter. He's a lover. heh. But good on him to accept doing this sort of thing. Which is what people said they wanted, that Pulju at least find other things to do and play different rolls on a team which he's showing a willingness to do. There was plenty of hit in his game and there has been for a month. Indeed the fight spurring from that.

Unsaid that at the moment in the game the Pulju Danault fight lifted the Oilers into the spirited battle of the game. It also traded 7mins of Pulju/Danault being off ice which is a trade off you take every time. Only thing Pulju didn't do there is get Danault a misconduct or game misconduct but thats on officials as well. With Danault out rest of way we maybe win the same game.

 

[Broberg Speed]

I absolutely understand this sentiment, and have ascribed to it in the past. However, I consider Katz an adept businessman. Businesses that stagnate because they are performing in the present without consideration for future trends tend to decline. It is analogous to a business that has a strong performing product so they neglect innovation. Eventually the lack of forward thinking will catch up, and the business will decline/die.

I feel the Oiler's organization used up all the patience of the fanbase through the DoD. I feel the amount of fans that would rather keep their money than support a team that causes them so much disappointment will only increase as long as the on-ice product is less than average.

Like I said though, this is just an opinion and I expect many to tear holes in it. I just really need to vent my frustration for this team. Thank you for responding so I could continue my rant.

What are your thoughts for the cause of the uninspired on-ice product?

Sports betting and revenue sharing.

 

[Zguy370]

Good luck getting the team to buy in when you've got leaders like Drai and Nuge that look allergic to effort.

wrong thread

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

What, was he supposed to win a cup with every team to be better than your career losers in Todd and Tippett? Lol, I guess 3 isn't enough.

my point was he was a "career loser" before coaching the Hawks...not every coach wins the Cup in the first 5 years of coaching

 

[Stoneman89]

Team is an embarrassment right now.

A thousand issues, from ownership down to the 4th line.

Drai was terribad, McDavid wasn’t good for two periods either but he gets a huge pass due to how good he’s been this season.

Coaching is lazy and stubborn.

A GM who is paralyzed by his own shadow.

Players who skate with the intensity of a snail.

Funny, but I'm pretty sure you probably wrote the same post game synopsis after a game around this time last year, only you really only narrowed the issue down to one individual.

 

[Cloned]

Funny, but I'm pretty sure you probably wrote the same post game synopsis after a game around this time last year, only you really only narrowed the issue down to one individual.

I’m pretty sure you would be on my case if I narrowed the issue down to one individual this year as well.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You make great points, but it's not just about Kane. These guys all do not play defensive hockey and the actual D suck.

They don't play hockey the proper way at all. It's why we suck at evens. I personally feel like it all comes down to accountability. These guys are all in the NHL. They made it. Something is missing.

I hate to say it, but leadership to me is missing here


That is the craziest stat I heard this morning lol.

Its a bit more complex I refer it to the Marcel Dionne situation. Playing on a team where he was the immense talent but not enough of a team around him to find any traction. NHL history holds a lot of these teams. Which is not to say they are not worth watching. The Buffalo Sabres French Connection line was among the best I'd seen, but the team overall wasn't winning any cups.

Both McDrai have had much of their time here being in the Marcel Dionne situation. Where they know even their greatest efforts won't result in much. Only in 2017 and last season did they have an adequate amount of help, which every NHL team needs.

I watched the McDavid segment on after hours on Saturday and even after a heartening loss McD was the consummate profesional. A player and person a team and league would happily have as their marquee, and star, and spokesperson. Fair to him as well he's more than bringing it on the ice and he's more than earning contract.

I get the leadership questions, I've made them from time to time. But I also realize that McD spent their first half dozen seasons here in untenable circumstance and that the org again had made the same mistake they made with the Hall, Eberle, Nuge, Gagner times failing to give the bunch adequate player hope. So that some of McDrais problems are situation learned. Mackinnon had them too in Colorado.

Teams play as well as the commensurate view that they have it in the room. While myslef I believe that these players can still rally, and that especially with Kane addtion the ingredients are there to make playoffs, but the players have to believe it, and its a mysterious thing if players do or do not. I think we have to start rewarding the players bringing it on this club much more than we do in giving them minutes. I don't care if theres a drop off in say Kostin, Nemo, Holloway, McLeod etc getting more toi. I think its critical to the team development this year or nextt that they do. What the Oilers are lacking is sense of team with all players buying into that. I'm not guessing either. Team meetings are all about accountability and everybody rowing.

 

[Stoneman89]

I’m pretty sure you would be on my case if I narrowed the issue down to one individual this year as well.

Try it and see (if it's REALLY what you believe). Not sure why you're so scared. Don't worry, your golden boy won't mind.

 

[Stoneman89]

Sadly, watching Drai play yesterday made me think he is becoming another slow skating, PP specialist. Another Tim Kerr, as it were. Not sure what is going on there.

 

[Soundwave]

Sadly, watching Drai play yesterday made me think he is becoming another slow skating, PP specialist. Another Tim Kerr, as it were. Not sure what is going on there.

He’s playing through a core body tear people need to friggin relax.

 

[Cloned]

Try it and see (if it's REALLY what you believe). Not sure why you're so scared. Don't worry, your golden boy won't mind.

I’ve criticized him plenty already this season.

Almost as much as you criticize Boone.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I’m pretty sure you would be on my case if I narrowed the issue down to one individual this year as well.

Hows the universe-altering power stance faring?

I think a lot of the pushback was just due to all the hyper hype Woody was receiving.

If I dare say as well that a good hockey man that gave his career to hockey was lambasted in every way imaginable, ridiculed, complete with people here with Tippett clown avatars and mocking everything from his age to his intelligence to his sanity. All for him coming out of retirement to help a failing club get into the playoffs two years running. Even in the case of Emily Cave and how Tippett, Holland and others in org assisted and helped in time of need reveals good people. Emily personally praised Tippett multiple times and is the background unseen. That there was incredible pain around the club and people helping to deal with that. Which often gets underplayed in the zeal to fire away at any object.

People kicking Tippett in the head here 200hundred times a day was a bit hard to take. That the same posters are doing it now with Woody is worth noting. Except now with much more built in something something excuses.

Woody did his part. He just isn't a caliber NHL headcoach. He was unproven. He should have been interim. But Holland situationally had his hands tied by the playoff performance. Ultimately doing th right thing and finding a bonafide Headcoach would have cost a lot of support. The fans wanted Woody and loudly voted for it. Well the fans got what they wanted.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Sadly, watching Drai play yesterday made me think he is becoming another slow skating, PP specialist. Another Tim Kerr, as it were. Not sure what is going on there.

Tell me if you saw the 2nd half of the game. From the Pulju fight on Drai was playing his shifts like he was on a mission. Forcing coverage to outman him working puck alone, being a horse, finding some passes and chances. Drai also annihilated Fiala with a crunching body blow after which Fiala who had already 2G wasn't seen much except the Lacrosse move. Drai was crunching, skating, reverse hitting, backchecking. The Oilers were weak around the net and not cashing. But this was a game where Drai was using his size and strength.

The PP was also a mess. Several times Drai open in his spot, pass got their once on 6 PP's. Switching out Barrie with Bouch? why? Barrie is elite level D on the PP. The team missed his play on the unit. Bouchard doesn't handle and distribute like Barrie. Of course no D on the team comes close.

just as an aside looks like the NYE resolution of a lot of fans was not to be fans. So many disappeared from here or jumped the plank.