Explain why Bobby Orr is consensus best D?

[KillerMillerTime]

Right, you need to cobble together an international team just to try to compete with the second worst "sustained" NHL team of the era (behind the early 50's Black Hawks) haha

Come on Mike, not cobbling together anything. Just using the top US talent in
a year you mentioned.

In fact that defense core of Langway, Howe, Larson, Ramsay, O'Connell, Morrow
could be the of the top 2 D Corps in that O6 NHL season.

Langway won The Norris Trophy and he and Howe were the 1st Team All-Stars.

Hell I would bet you could have accelerated Barrasso and The Beezer and put them in net and they wouldn't have been shelled behind that D corp.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Come on Mike, not cobbling together anything. Just using the top US talent in
a year you mentioned.

In fact that defense core of Langway, Howe, Larson, Ramsay, O'Connell, Morrow
could be the of the top 2 D Corps in that O6 NHL season.

Langway won The Norris Trophy and he and Howe were the 1st Team All-Stars.

Hell I would bet you could have accelerated Barrasso and The Beezer and put them in net and they wouldn't have been shelled behind that D corp.

I hear you, but what I'm saying is that you need an international team to try to get up to snuff...but let's put a pin in this, and continue this discussion in that thread. I saw it, I thought it was an interesting concept and wanted to give some thought before I responded.

 

[peconcan]

Only Dman to ever win the art Ross is a good start

 

[BraveCanadian]

With the WHA folding and the boom, I'm not sure I buy the early 80s being weaker than the early 70s with consistent expansion.. but I think there were maybe more examples of unpolished players due to the draft change.

 

[FU Shoresy]

Because he's F-ing Bobby Orr!!! Nough said.

 

[seventieslord]

With the WHA folding and the boom, I'm not sure I buy the early 80s being weaker than the early 70s with consistent expansion.. but I think there were maybe more examples of unpolished players due to the draft change.

I'd say since we're comparing a 21 team league vs 12, it's safe to say that the pool of qualified players didn't expand by 75% in just a decade. So the idea of the early 80s being weaker at least holds water from a numerical standpoint.

Now, compared to the 14-16-17-18 team NHL that was further watered down by the WHA? For sure it's better than those.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

I'd say since we're comparing a 21 team league vs 12, it's safe to say that the pool of qualified players didn't expand by 75% in just a decade. So the idea of the early 80s being weaker at least holds water from a numerical standpoint.

Now, compared to the 14-16-17-18 team NHL that was further watered down by the WHA? For sure it's better than those.

Well when you add the addition to the pool of players from the US and Sweden plus the already noted growth in Canads by a previous poster , on a per player to team basis, the increased talent pool pretty much meets demand.

 

[seventieslord]

Well when you add the addition to the pool of players from the US and Sweden plus the already noted growth in Canads by a previous poster , on a per player to team basis, the increased talent pool pretty much meets demand.

It's more or less a wash. The NHL in 1980 drew about 70% more players from Canada then it did in 1970, which is about the percentage that the size of the league increased. The worst players in the NHL in 1980 were probably pretty equal to the worst in 1970, at least from a numerical standpoint.

 

[Michael Farkas]

All those wonderful Americans and Swedes. 15 Americans scored more than 30 points in 1980. 26 were plus players. There were 17 Swedish skaters in total. With those kind of numbers, these guys would be swallowed up by roster size expansion alone (16 in 1961 to 18 in 1982).

Also, it's not like it's coming from a flat zero either. There a handful of Swedes and Americans around throughout the 70s.

Honest question: Is it all worth questioning that we lost Great Britain (1936 Olympic Gold in hockey) with a number of players with GB as a birth country?

I'm not saying the talent pool went down or whatever...but the game play very, very clearly did not show this. Six teams with smaller rosters and more sound development structure vs, well, basically the "opposite"...

 

[bobholly39]

I wonder how dominnant Bobby Orr would be in today's NHL, offensively speaking.

He stood out a lot more back then because he revolutionized the position - and his offense was tremendous vs his peers, and especially for a defenseman. But we have a lot more offensive defensemen in the league today, like Makar, Karlsson, etc. We also have a true generational talent in the middle of his prime/peak with McDavid knotching a 150 point season last year.

How would Orr do against that?

I'm sure he'd be better than Karlsson/Makar offensively but...by how much?
And what about McDavid, does he match/rival peak McDavid? And if not - how about McDavid winning the Art Ross in 2022 in a "weaker" season, does Orr match/top that?

 

[The Panther]

If Orr had been healthy and on a half decent team in the 1979-1983 area...he probably gets a 50/150 season, even in his early 30's...him skating through those minor league cones for half of his games, look out...Orr to Denis Savard might actually be enough on its own, forget the rest of the team...

Uh, no. That's not possible.

Orr would have turned 32 in 1980 and thus would already be among the older players in an increasingly youth-oriented NHL. You'll notice that none of Park (Orr's direct peer), Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, etc. were doing better during 1979-1983 (well, except Lafleur in 1979-80) than they had prior. They were all on good teams.

I think Orr had already faced enough "minor league cones" circa 1974-75 with his 29 games (36% of season) vs. Atlanta, California, Detroit, Kansas City, Minnesota, and Washington (the latter almost certainly the worst NHL team of all time).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Only Dman to ever win the art Ross is a good start

Twice.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Uh, no. That's not possible.

Orr would have turned 32 in 1980 and thus would already be among the older players in an increasingly youth-oriented NHL. You'll notice that none of Park (Orr's direct peer), Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, etc. were doing better during 1979-1983 (well, except Lafleur in 1979-80) than they had prior. They were all on good teams.

I think Orr had already faced enough "minor league cones" circa 1974-75 with his 29 games (36% of season) vs. Atlanta, California, Detroit, Kansas City, Minnesota, and Washington (the latter almost certainly the worst NHL team of all time).

In 1974-75 there were 4 teams that allowed over 4 goals per game. Washington allowed over 5.
In 1974-75 there were 5 teams that allowed under 3 goals a game. (including Atlanta)

In 1981-82 there were 12 teams that allowed over 4 goals a game.
In 1981-82 there was 1 teams that allowed under 3 goals a game.

You can argue that the calibre of play wasn't necessarily worse just because scoring was so much higher. But it's still a fact it was much easier to score goals in the early 80's than even the year of the worst team ever, when Orr led th league in scoring.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Uh, no. That's not possible.

Orr would have turned 32 in 1980 and thus would already be among the older players in an increasingly youth-oriented NHL. You'll notice that none of Park (Orr's direct peer), Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, etc. were doing better during 1979-1983 (well, except Lafleur in 1979-80) than they had prior. They were all on good teams.

I think Orr had already faced enough "minor league cones" circa 1974-75 with his 29 games (36% of season) vs. Atlanta, California, Detroit, Kansas City, Minnesota, and Washington (the latter almost certainly the worst NHL team of all time).

It's not possible? Bobby Orr...?

Dionne broke 130 points three straight times in '79, '80, '81 - his best.
Perreault resurrected back up to or above 1.2 pts/gm in '80, '82, and '84 in his early 30's.
Sittler's 2nd best season came in 1980.

When Lemieux was playing in the early 2000's as a mid 60's birth year, was anyone else throwing that kind of heat around that birth year? Nieuwendyk was a half point per game, Robitaille wasn't even that. Yzerman was hanging in at a 70-75 point pace. Oates, Francis, they weren't even that.

Lemieux was on a 120+ point pace in that time. Sometimes great players do some great things unexpectedly.

You rather proudly announce that you didn't watch either of the times that we're talking about.

You pick on the '75 Capitals a lot. But that was a team effectively starting from scratch. But don't mention, say, the '81 Jets. But, reasonably, Winnipeg kept some guys after being a champion in the WHA in '79.

They kept Lukowich, kept Scott Campbell, kept Willy Lindstrom, kept Barry Long, kept Peter Sullivan, obviously not the same team by any stretch...but pieces and added Dave Christian, Dave Babych, Moe Mantha...lost Kenta, Ruskowski, etc.

I'm not sure that I'd expect a team that won the championship of an apparently quality league in '79 to retain a quarter of their roster, add some pieces/lose some pieces as teams do, and then win 9 of 80 games two years later. With some context, maybe the '75 Caps aren't alone in the conversation for worst of all time...

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Uh, no. That's not possible.

Orr would have turned 32 in 1980 and thus would already be among the older players in an increasingly youth-oriented NHL. You'll notice that none of Park (Orr's direct peer), Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, etc. were doing better during 1979-1983 (well, except Lafleur in 1979-80) than they had prior. They were all on good teams.

I think Orr had already faced enough "minor league cones" circa 1974-75 with his 29 games (36% of season) vs. Atlanta, California, Detroit, Kansas City, Minnesota, and Washington (the latter almost certainly the worst NHL team of all time).

Yeah, but he didnt make his season against those teams...

Against O6 teams that year he had 36 pts in 24 games, a 120 pt pace (80 games)
Against the 2nd 6 teams he had 48 pts in 28 games, a 137 pt pace
Combined he had 84 pts in 52 games against the existing 12, a 130 pt pace

So yeah he scored more against bad teams (who in history didnt), but he didnt get some absurd boost from them like you're implying.

And to your other point of "none of x, y, z were doing better from 79-83"...yeah, and none of them are Bobby Orr either. You can't estimate what Orr could've done based on Perreault or even Park (who is a contemporary of Orr's but not a peer greatness wise)

 

[VanIslander]

Groupthink.
Hero worship.
Peak over career.

I am flabbergasted by some who think Orr undoubtedly the greatest player ever but scoff at Hasek as good as Roy, bumping the Czech to the curb of the top 10.

Im terms of d... would you want Harvey & Bourque before an Orr & Coffey? Absolutely.

I'd trade an Orr for a Potvin+, as indeed, irl injuries are not turned off.

Orr is overhyped damaged goods. The emperor has those clothes.

Orr should be 6th to 9th all time, all things considered.

Gordie Howe, Wayne Gretzky, Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey, Raymond Bourque... all have STELLAR careers.

No ifs ands or buts.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Those three "concepts" also all point at Hasek. If you were serious about those being negatives, you would be on Brodeur for best ever or best of that era.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Groupthink.
Hero worship.
Peak over career.

I am flabbergasted by some who think Orr undoubtedly the greatest player ever but scoff at Hasek as good as Roy, bumping the Czech to the curb of the top 10.

Im terms of d... would you want Harvey & Bourque before an Orr & Coffey? Absolutely.

I'd trade an Orr for a Potvin+, as indeed, irl injuries are not turned off.

Orr is overhyped damaged goods. The emperor has those clothes.

Orr should be 6th to 9th all time, all things considered.

Gordie Howe, Wayne Gretzky, Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey, Raymond Bourque... all have STELLAR careers.

No ifs ands or buts.

So Im assuming Brodeur is your GOAT goalie, and you have Lemieux fighting to make the Top 10 rather than being in the Big 4, right?

After all the same negatives you try to drum up against Orr apply to Hasek and Mario

 

[Namba 17]

Only Dman to ever win the art Ross is a good start

There were two another Dmen, who became the best scorers of their leagues.
Not NHL, off course, though.

 

[VanIslander]

Brodeur? Lol. ... he was 2nd fiddle to Hasek & Roy until they retired, he being younger, shone in a weaker era.

Hasek has had a long career. He was great before the NHL, for a long time in Buffalo, and a few years beyond.

Mario & Orr are the injury what-if greatest evers at their position. They weren't, but could've if only injuries were turned off. Dang life!

 

[VanIslander]

There were two another Dmen, who became the best scorers of their leagues.
Not NHL, off course, though.

Scorers? ... Please, let's not reduce defensemen to that metric.

Fetisov & Pronger were much greater than their offensive stats.

 

[Namba 17]

Scorers? ... Please, let's not reduce defensemen to that metric.

I don't
I just find this fact interesting.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Brodeur? Lol. ... he was 2nd fiddle to Hasek & Roy until they retired, he being younger, shone in a weaker era.

Hasek has had a long career. He was great before the NHL, for a long time in Buffalo, and a few years beyond.

Brodeur "shone in a weaker" era - which I assume is a shot at post-lockout hockey. Even though that took some of the most adaptation for goalies since the liberalization of the forward pass.

Also, are you suggesting that because Hasek "was great before the NHL" ...and that counts...that the Czech League in 1987 was better than or comparable to the NHL in 2007...? A league where David Volek, Vlad Ruzicka, Jiri Hrdina, and Robert Kron were among the best players (and among the few that even played in the NHL)...?

I would posit that Brodeur was only "second fiddle" to Hasek because of groupthink and hero worship.

 

[seventieslord]

I would posit that Brodeur was only "second fiddle" to Hasek because of groupthink and hero worship.

OK, that's taking it way too far. In Hasek's prime he faced 2000 more shots than Brodeur and still allowed 5 fewer goals. No amount of "stats be damned" or dismissal of save percentage can write a narrative about those years that favours Brodeur. From 93-99 he was on a different planet as a puck stopper, from anyone.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not actually going there...I'm just having a piss because of how silly it is that Orr is a product groupthink and Hasek isn't...

Maybe in time I'll become a lead conductor on the Brodeur for GOAT train...but that time is not now haha