Ansar Khan: Expect Both Ericsson and Kronwall to Play

[Syckle78]

I think New Jersey is worse as well.

Yea probably about the same level. Nobody really stands out on their defensive squad.

 

[Leronziia]

Yea probably about the same level. Nobody really stands out on their defensive squad.

Severson is better than everyone not named Green.

But apart from that, I agree.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Right.... because Detroit would never circumvent the cap.

Zetterberg contract to lower cap hit.
Performance bonus for playing minimal number of games for Alfredsson.
Franzen deal as well.


Don't be mad. Holland may have started it with the Zetterberg contract, but Chicago perfected it.

Hossa first 7 seasons a cap savings for 2.625 million. Conveniently he has season (likely career) ending skin disorder when his salary dumps to 1 mil per season. Chicago payed him 59/63 million of the contract with 4 seasons left.
Keith had a 3.5 mil savings on 2013 and a 2 mil savings on the 2015 cup wins
Seabrook had a 1.2 mil savings on 2013 cup win and 800k penalty on 2015 win

There were more on Chicago but can't recall of top of my head. Capgeek had a great tool to compare cap hit vs payroll.

Perfected it?

Chicago is a big part of why the back diving contracts got hit so ****ing hard in the 2012 lockout.

Jersey was a bigger deal with that abomination of a contract to Kovy, but Hossa was really the one where the crap really started to hit the fan with the reports of discussions about him retiring early coming out of the negotiations.

And Chicago bled themselves deep on assets to get under the cap. They lost a 1D in Big Buff, a top 6 forward in Ladd, and another guy or two for pretty much nothing but salary relief.

They lost a top 6 W in Patrick Sharp and one of their better young D prospects to Dallas for, by the end of that season, literally nothing but cap relief (as the trading chain ended with them landing Ehrhoff who they waived for nothing).

Chicago was fortunate to land probably the best winger in the game, a bona fide #1C and a bonafide #1D in a very short window. And the Hossa thing this time around with the skin condition is bull**** at it's finest. I'm not saying that it's fake (as it clearly isn't. Hossa really does have the condition) but it also clearly did not just happen this offseason.

Hossa is retiring, he's not injured. The Hawks just know that the league isn't gonna do ****.

 

[Martinez]

I have no problem with big E in the line up. He was fine last season until he broke his wrist. Not saying he was good, he was fine. Kronner I have more of an issue with. It's just plain sad watching him play.
DD-green
Daley-xo
E- Jensen
No room for kronner. I don't want to scratch xo or Jensen

 

[HockeyinHD]

Hossa is retiring, he's not injured. The Hawks just know that the league isn't gonna do ****.

The Huet deal and how the Hawks got out of it changed the direction of their franchise. That was the real outrage to me. They 'loaned' him to a Swiss league team to get salary relief.

 

[Oddbob]

Right.... because Detroit would never circumvent the cap.

Zetterberg contract to lower cap hit.
Performance bonus for playing minimal number of games for Alfredsson.
Franzen deal as well.


Don't be mad. Holland may have started it with the Zetterberg contract, but Chicago perfected it.

Hossa first 7 seasons a cap savings for 2.625 million. Conveniently he has season (likely career) ending skin disorder when his salary dumps to 1 mil per season. Chicago payed him 59/63 million of the contract with 4 seasons left.
Keith had a 3.5 mil savings on 2013 and a 2 mil savings on the 2015 cup wins
Seabrook had a 1.2 mil savings on 2013 cup win and 800k penalty on 2015 win

There were more on Chicago but can't recall of top of my head. Capgeek had a great tool to compare cap hit vs payroll.

Zetterberg contract didn't break any rules, there was no rule preventing that contract. The league simply, and falsely, punished the Wings and a few other teams, for these contracts, eventhough they were completely legal when signed.

 

[chances14]

The Huet deal and how the Hawks got out of it changed the direction of their franchise. That was the real outrage to me. They 'loaned' him to a Swiss league team to get salary relief.

don't forget the campbell contract that florida generously took off their hands as well. hawks have definitley got lucky in getting rid of a few dumb long term contracts that should have crippled their franchise

 

[Winger98]

I have no problem with big E in the line up. He was fine last season until he broke his wrist. Not saying he was good, he was fine. Kronner I have more of an issue with. It's just plain sad watching him play.
DD-green
Daley-xo
E- Jensen
No room for kronner. I don't want to scratch xo or Jensen

Kronwall is playing until he physically can't.

Embrace the healing power of 'and'.

In other words, if their goal is to be better this year (and it is), then it makes more sense to have a reasonably reliable vet dman who partially addresses a positional need, namely having a blueliner who can at least make a pass out of the defensive zone while not embarrassing himself on the PP.

And, Kronwall (for sure) and Ericsson (almost as certainly) will miss a bunch of games this year.

And, there are tons of spots and opportunities for younger dmen to make the team. Having Daley around doesn't impact that in any meaningful way, at least in part because of the above, but also because there are lots of spots, and also because there aren't a lot of promising dmen we need to make space for right away, anyhow.

And, if Detroit's on the outside again, Daley here makes it a bit easier to trade Green at the deadline and not have the team utterly combust... given that the team seems to want to try and be good, and failing that to not be abjectly, purposefully awful.

I mean, this is just a middle-pairing, 3-4 dman kind of move. Nothing major here, there aren't any big impacts either way this goes. There's no huge upside in the signing, there's no real downside to it, at least in terms of on-ice stuff. Yes, it sends the tankers into paroxysms of impotent fury, but that's going to happen as long as the front office wants to win, anyway.

Then they need to do something that actually makes winning more likely. Daley is a waste of time, especially giving him three years. Wait it out, and they can probably sign someone like Campbell, Beauchemin, Franson, etc., and for a one year deal. Get rid of him by next summer, and hope to go after someone better.

Or go after someone like Nesterov or Morrow, who will provide just as much insurance that Daley provides, but who also have at least the potential to become more.

Or just play XO/Jensen/Russo more. I don't see this team being any more likely to win with Daley as they are with the kids.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Kronwall is playing until he physically can't.

Which might be training camp...

I would be pretty stunned if he played half the season this year.

 

[Winger98]

Which might be training camp...

I would be pretty stunned if he played half the season this year.

I wouldn't be. Even if he shouldn't be playing, the org has to be willing to tell him to shut it down. How often have they been willing to do that?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

What is so tough to understand? Everything is obvious for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they both over the cap and the roster limit? They had a full group of defensemen, now they have a full group plus one.

 

[Go Wings]

Kronwall is playing until he physically can't.



Then they need to do something that actually makes winning more likely. Daley is a waste of time, especially giving him three years. Wait it out, and they can probably sign someone like Campbell, Beauchemin, Franson, etc., and for a one year deal. Get rid of him by next summer, and hope to go after someone better.

Or go after someone like Nesterov or Morrow, who will provide just as much insurance that Daley provides, but who also have at least the potential to become more.

Or just play XO/Jensen/Russo more. I don't see this team being any more likely to win with Daley as they are with the kids.

Morrow is already signed by MTL and Nesterov is a terrible.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Which might be training camp...

I would be pretty stunned if he played half the season this year.

Same here, No way do i expect Kronner to play more then half a season. His knees are totally shot i know he wont do it because he's a heart and soul kind of player but he needs to LTIR it for his last two seasons.

 

[jkutswings]

There's no huge upside in the signing, there's no real downside to it, at least in terms of on-ice stuff.

Agreed.

Yes, it sends the tankers into paroxysms of impotent fury, but that's going to happen as long as the front office wants to win, anyway.

Everybody wants to win. But when you win less and less each year, what's a reasonable threshold of diminishing returns before you realize that it's time to rebuild?

 

[Heaton]

And there's different degrees of winning. Some are more than happy to spend money on the team just to lose in the first round, others want to see more. But if some want to buy into Holland's 'less is more' mantra, then by all means.

As for the point of this thread, I never thought it was a possibility that Ericsson and Kronwall wouldn't play this year. They are still part of the core.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Everybody wants to win. But when you win less and less each year, what's a reasonable threshold of diminishing returns before you realize that it's time to rebuild?

Rebuild? Every year.
Tank? Certainly not the years before and just after a huge new arena is bought for them.

 

[HockeyinHD]

And there's different degrees of winning. Some are more than happy to spend money on the team just to lose in the first round, others want to see more. But if some want to buy into Holland's 'less is more' mantra, then by all means.

Enh. It's the NHL. An 8 played in the Finals, a 6 in the ECFs, the top 2 teams in points in the West lost in round 1, 2 of the top 3 East teams in points lost in the first two rounds.

I mean, if people want to hold their breath until the Wings are a dominant team before they start allowing themselves to be enjoy hockey... have at it.

Those days are long gone and are never coming back. Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle somehow and have a mini run, but it's pretty much going to be a round or two deep 4 years in 6 from here on out.

As for the point of this thread, I never thought it was a possibility that Ericsson and Kronwall wouldn't play this year. They are still part of the core.

Pre-Daley I thought there was no way Kronwall wouldn't play. Post-Daley I think there's a tiny chance. E makes his 4.25 flat all the way to the end. He'll keep going.

 

[Hockeyholic]

OT here: Does Zetterberg get his number retired?

 

[jkutswings]

Rebuild? Every year.
Tank? Certainly not the years before and just after a huge new arena is bought for them.

Rebuilding means voluntarily trading away your old core and peripheral players for a new core or players to compliment a young core. Not just making a small change here or there.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

OT here: Does Zetterberg get his number retired?

I wouldn't do it if I was the Wings. I believe Holland already said they are going to.

#91 goes up next or there is nothing to talk about. Zetterberg is in front of Datsyuk for the honor. He is going to start hitting big ticket career marks over the back years of this contract.

 

[Bench]

I wouldn't do it if I was the Wings. I believe Holland already said they are going to.

#91 goes up next or there is nothing to talk about. Zetterberg is in front of Datsyuk for the honor. He is going to start hitting big ticket career marks over the back years of this contract.

I feel like, right or wrong, if you win a Conn Smythe for the team that drafted you and you played for your entire career... automatic number retirement. I don't know if I can justify it with numbers, but it FEELS right.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I feel like, right or wrong, if you win a Conn Smythe for the team that drafted you and you played for your entire career... automatic number retirement. I don't know if I can justify it with numbers, but it FEELS right.

We are not the same as every other organization in this regard. The 7 players up there are treasures and while I disagree with doing it by taking down Aurie the Wings have an incredible array in terms of the impact to the franchise and game up in their rafters.

 

[Bench]

We are not the same as every other organization in this regard. The 7 players up there are treasures and while I disagree with doing it by taking down Aurie the Wings have an incredible array in terms of the impact to the franchise and game up in their rafters.

That brings up an interesting question. If Zetterberg can't make the cut, as I said a career Wing, captain, and playoff MVP... are we OK with going 20+ years between number retirements from here forward? Most franchises during that span haven't had a player of his caliber. There's no reason to think the Wings will produce another Yzerman or Lidstrom for a long time. And that's not me knocking management, it's more looking at other teams I follow like the Stars and Wild. I'm not sure they've had any players in the last 20 years, outside of Modano, that would even sniff Zetterberg's legacy with the Wings. It's a pretty rare thing.

 

[HisNoodliness]

That brings up an interesting question. If Zetterberg can't make the cut, as I said a career Wing, captain, and playoff MVP... are we OK with going 20+ years between number retirements from here forward? Most franchises during that span haven't had a player of his caliber. There's no reason to think the Wings will produce another Yzerman or Lidstrom for a long time. And that's not me knocking management, it's more looking at other teams I follow like the Stars and Wild. I'm not sure they've had any players in the last 20 years, outside of Modano, that would even sniff Zetterberg's legacy with the Wings. It's a pretty rare thing.

This is honestly a very good point. Z has a very strong argument for having his number retired. He's put up great numbers (1000 GP 326G 904 P), he led the Wings to a cup (Lidstrom was of course captain at this time, but Z got the Conn Smythe), and has been a good captain. He's played on the Wings his whole career and is also a good community guy who does a lot of charity work etc. He's a member of the triple gold club. I don't know if it should but Zetterberg having such a good reputation is the kind of thing that turns the optics on a very good career into a great one.

I don't see someone else having a better argument for quite a while. None of our prospects/young players have any hope of replicating Zetterberg's level of play/success. Mantha is the only one who could put up similar points IMO, but I'll be very surprised if he does as well as replicates the defensive impact of having Zetterberg on the ice.

Regardless, players like Zetterberg and Datsyuk are pretty unique. They're both super late round picks who surprised everyone and became stars for the Wings. Datsyuk hurt his odds with the way his career ended, but both deserve to hang from the rafters IMO. Fedorov should probably go in there too. I think he's still the only player to win the Hart and the Selke in the same season. He won three cups with us and was part of arguably the best teams in Red Wings history.

I don't think we're going to have another player as good as these three for a while. If they have to be better than those three then it'll probably be at least twenty years. I understand that we have some great players in the rafters but that doesn't make Zetterberg's career any less impressive. Time's have changed and few players have careers of Zetterberg's caliber.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That brings up an interesting question. If Zetterberg can't make the cut, as I said a career Wing, captain, and playoff MVP... are we OK with going 20+ years between number retirements from here forward? Most franchises during that span haven't had a player of his caliber. There's no reason to think the Wings will produce another Yzerman or Lidstrom for a long time. And that's not me knocking management, it's more looking at other teams I follow like the Stars and Wild. I'm not sure they've had any players in the last 20 years, outside of Modano, that would even sniff Zetterberg's legacy with the Wings. It's a pretty rare thing.

Until Fedorov goes up, I just cannot really honestly discuss Zetterberg or Datsyuk. He was just better than them. I guess with the captain and Smythe thing maybe Zetterberg does get in ahead of the two Russians.

With the exception of Sawchuk (not being a captain for pretty obvious reasons) all of the guys up there were captains of the team and won at least three Stanley Cups

I just don't have a problem keeping our standards huge. It is kind of a unique and cool thing about the Wings. Every single guy they have retired is a really big deal hockey wise.