Expansion to 36, which city is number 36?

[voyageur]

Hamilton just isn't going to create that many new hockey fans. Most of Hamilton's fans will be ex-Leafs fans, or people who root for both for a while. QC is different, because I think there's a distinction from Montreal's fan base there. The problem with QC is the ceiling, which is low and would be hit pretty quickly.

With some exceptions, you just don't really get much of a following outside of a team's home market in pro sports. It's the same thing here in Charlotte. There are some Hurricanes fans here, but just not that many. If Charlotte ever got large enough to host both NHL and NBA, a Charlotte team could definitely work and would have a totally separate fanbase from the Hurricanes. As it stands right now, the metro just doesn't have enough people to justify both winter leagues (also the arena is basketball specific, but I'm just talking about the market alone). One day maybe.

The existence of the Dallas Stars is a complete non-factor in whether Houston is a good idea or not.

I'm going to say dollars and cents Hamilton is a bigger hockey market than Houston...but like I said it would take the relocation of a Ottawa for them to get a team, and I have no idea if that's actually in the cards.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm going to say dollars and cents Hamilton is a bigger hockey market than Houston...but like I said it would take the relocation of a Ottawa for them to get a team, and I have no idea if that's actually in the cards.

I don’t necessarily disagree with “Hamilton is a bigger hockey market than Houston” but that isn’t the question if you’re looking at a comparison. The question “Does Hamilton+Toronto get more fans than Houston+Toronto?” And the answer there is most likely “no,” because again… most of Hamilton’s fans would come from existing Maple Leafs fans.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I'm going to say dollars and cents Hamilton is a bigger hockey market than Houston...but like I said it would take the relocation of a Ottawa for them to get a team, and I have no idea if that's actually in the cards.

I think you're missing one key part to "dollars and cents". Houston has a huge corporate presence. Like a million times bigger than Hamilton. So, looking at suites and corporate ticket packages as well as advertising, Houston will be a powerhouse.

 

[tucker3434]

Hamilton would do great. But considering the premium you'd have to pay the Leafs and possibly the Sabres just to get in there, it's not going to give you the return a Houston would. That's why we're talking about Houston and not Hamilton right now.

I think that'll flip at some point, but not until we've cleared another 2 rounds of expansion or so. 15-20 years from now, we could be talking about $2.5b for a Cincy vs $3.5b for a Hamilton. That would be a much tougher pick than we have today.

 

[aqib]

I think you're missing one key part to "dollars and cents". Houston has a huge corporate presence. Like a million times bigger than Hamilton. So, looking at suites and corporate ticket packages as well as advertising, Houston will be a powerhouse.

If the NHL had an open bid process where different cities could bid on a team highest bid wins, I guarantee Hamilton would outbid Houston. Hamilton is 35 minutes from Mississauga. You've got over 50 International Fortune 500 companies with their HQ in Mississauga. On the other side you've got Waterloo which has Google Canada's headquarters.

The bottom line is the league is simply not open to putting a second team in Southern Ontario because they assume that the fan base would simply be converts from the Leafs, Sabres, and to a lesser extent Red Wings (further west of Hamilton) and not net new fans to the sport itself. However one can't argue that a second team in Southern Ontario (be it in Hamilton, Markham, Mississauga, etc.) wouldn't be a financial hit for its owner.

 

[Yukon Joe]

If the NHL had an open bid process where different cities could bid on a team highest bid wins, I guarantee Hamilton would outbid Houston. Hamilton is 35 minutes from Mississauga. You've got over 50 International Fortune 500 companies with their HQ in Mississauga. On the other side you've got Waterloo which has Google Canada's headquarters.

The bottom line is the league is simply not open to putting a second team in Southern Ontario because they assume that the fan base would simply be converts from the Leafs, Sabres, and to a lesser extent Red Wings (further west of Hamilton) and not net new fans to the sport itself. However one can't argue that a second team in Southern Ontario (be it in Hamilton, Markham, Mississauga, etc.) wouldn't be a financial hit for its owner.

But cities don't bid on teams - people do. And that's kind of the reason why neither Hamilton or Houston have teams right now.

Hamilton had Jim Balsillie - but he chose to try and use the courts to get a team moved to Hamilton, rather than work with the league. And he's completely out of the picture now (what with his company RIM/Blackberry being bankrupt).

Houston is stuck with Fertita as he controls the arena - and he doesn't seem to want to pay up.

Look, Utah will be a fine franchise I'm sure - but I think long term either of Hamilton or Houston would make more money. But there's a reason why Arizona moved to Utah, not the other ones.

 

[Golden_Jet]

But cities don't bid on teams - people do. And that's kind of the reason why neither Hamilton or Houston have teams right now.

Hamilton had Jim Balsillie - but he chose to try and use the courts to get a team moved to Hamilton, rather than work with the league. And he's completely out of the picture now (what with his company RIM/Blackberry being bankrupt).

Houston is stuck with Fertita as he controls the arena - and he doesn't seem to want to pay up.

Look, Utah will be a fine franchise I'm sure - but I think long term either of Hamilton or Houston would make more money. But there's a reason why Arizona moved to Utah, not the other ones.

Blackberry is still a business, concentrate on cyber security now I think.

 

[tucker3434]

If the NHL had an open bid process where different cities could bid on a team highest bid wins, I guarantee Hamilton would outbid Houston. Hamilton is 35 minutes from Mississauga. You've got over 50 International Fortune 500 companies with their HQ in Mississauga. On the other side you've got Waterloo which has Google Canada's headquarters.

The bottom line is the league is simply not open to putting a second team in Southern Ontario because they assume that the fan base would simply be converts from the Leafs, Sabres, and to a lesser extent Red Wings (further west of Hamilton) and not net new fans to the sport itself. However one can't argue that a second team in Southern Ontario (be it in Hamilton, Markham, Mississauga, etc.) wouldn't be a financial hit for its owner.

I think you need to check your stats. There are only 12 on the Fortune Global 500 list in all of Canada. Houston's economy is significantly larger than GTA's. Canada will never win on raw $$$'s alone. They win on density of fans.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Blackberry is still a business, concentrate on cyber security now I think.

I knew it still existed, but I thought it had gone bankrupt and restructured. It has not - but it is a tiny shadow of what it once was (back when Balsillie was trying to buy the Coyotes to move to Hamilton).

In any event - Jim Balsillie is no longer in any kind of financial shape to buy an NHL franchise.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

If the NHL had an open bid process where different cities could bid on a team highest bid wins, I guarantee Hamilton would outbid Houston. Hamilton is 35 minutes from Mississauga. You've got over 50 International Fortune 500 companies with their HQ in Mississauga. On the other side you've got Waterloo which has Google Canada's headquarters.

The bottom line is the league is simply not open to putting a second team in Southern Ontario because they assume that the fan base would simply be converts from the Leafs, Sabres, and to a lesser extent Red Wings (further west of Hamilton) and not net new fans to the sport itself. However one can't argue that a second team in Southern Ontario (be it in Hamilton, Markham, Mississauga, etc.) wouldn't be a financial hit for its owner.

Um...say what?? Mississauga has 50 Fortune 500 HQ's?! Please show your work. For reference (haven't looked up Houston), Atlanta is #3 in the US with 18.

Resources & Data - Metro Atlanta Chamber

www.metroatlantachamber.com

Would a team in Hamilton do well? Maybe, though I have my reservations about small-market teams long-term. But, my point in the first place, there is no way any of those markets have a larger corporate presence (especially when you factor in the Port of Houston). Let's just start with the fact that the metro population is 7.5 million.

 

[Tawnos]

Houston would have a team right now, and not SLC, if Fertitta had cultivated a great relationship with (read: sucked up to) the NHL for the year leading up to the Coyotes sale. Instead, he made some a couple of questionable comments and didn't seriously start talking about an NHL team until a few weeks before the sale.

 

[aqib]

Um...say what?? Mississauga has 50 Fortune 500 HQ's?! Please show your work. For reference (haven't looked up Houston), Atlanta is #3 in the US with 18.

Resources & Data - Metro Atlanta Chamber

www.metroatlantachamber.com

Would a team in Hamilton do well? Maybe, though I have my reservations about small-market teams long-term. But, my point in the first place, there is no way any of those markets have a larger corporate presence (especially when you factor in the Port of Houston). Let's just start with the fact that the metro population is 7.5 million.

Remember I said the Canadian HQ of International Fortune 500 companies. But here you go:

• Abbott Laboratories
• ADM Milling[1]
• Agilent Technologies
• Air Products Canada
• Alcoa Fastening Systems
• Amgen Canada
• Anixter Canada
• Ashland Canada
• AVNET International Canada
• Baxter Corporation
• Boston Scientific
• Chevron Texaco Lubricants
• Citi
• ConAgra Foods
• DuPont
• Eastman Chemical
• Ecolab
• Expeditors International
• Federal Express
• First Data
• General Electric
• General Mills
• Gilead Sciences
• Hershey
• Hewlett-Packard
• Honeywell
• Ingram Micro
• Kellogg
• Kimberly-Clark
• Konica Minolta
• Marriott Lodging
• Masco
• Mascot Truck Parts
• Mattel
• Medtronic
• Microsoft
• Moores
• NetSuite
• NCR
• Newell Rubbermaid
• Nissan
• Office Depot
• Oracle Corporation
• Paccar
• PepsiCo[2]
• Pitney Bowes
• Praxair
• Prologis
• Ryder
• Sara Lee Coffee & Tea
• Sealed Air
• Sherwin-Williams
• Smurfit-MBI
• Staples
• Tech Data
• Thermo Fisher Scientific
• United Parcel
• Wal-Mart
• Wells Fargo
• Western Digital
• Whirlpool Corporation
• Wyeth Consumer Health Care
• YRC Logistics

As far as Hamilton being a "small market" this is going to bring up the old city/metro area argument. No one considers Atlanta to just be the city or even Fulton County. Not to mention that Southern Ontario doesn't have the NFL and college sports aren't a thing in Canada.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Remember I said the Canadian HQ of International Fortune 500 companies. But here you go:

• Abbott Laboratories
• ADM Milling[1]
• Agilent Technologies
• Air Products Canada
• Alcoa Fastening Systems
• Amgen Canada
• Anixter Canada
• Ashland Canada
• AVNET International Canada
• Baxter Corporation
• Boston Scientific
• Chevron Texaco Lubricants
• Citi
• ConAgra Foods
• DuPont
• Eastman Chemical
• Ecolab
• Expeditors International
• Federal Express
• First Data
• General Electric
• General Mills
• Gilead Sciences
• Hershey
• Hewlett-Packard
• Honeywell
• Ingram Micro
• Kellogg
• Kimberly-Clark
• Konica Minolta
• Marriott Lodging
• Masco
• Mascot Truck Parts
• Mattel
• Medtronic
• Microsoft
• Moores
• NetSuite
• NCR
• Newell Rubbermaid
• Nissan
• Office Depot
• Oracle Corporation
• Paccar
• PepsiCo[2]
• Pitney Bowes
• Praxair
• Prologis
• Ryder
• Sara Lee Coffee & Tea
• Sealed Air
• Sherwin-Williams
• Smurfit-MBI
• Staples
• Tech Data
• Thermo Fisher Scientific
• United Parcel
• Wal-Mart
• Wells Fargo
• Western Digital
• Whirlpool Corporation
• Wyeth Consumer Health Care
• YRC Logistics

As far as Hamilton being a "small market" this is going to bring up the old city/metro area argument. No one considers Atlanta to just be the city or even Fulton County. Not to mention that Southern Ontario doesn't have the NFL and college sports aren't a thing in Canada.

Ah, so basically hubs. Gotcha. Like Atlanta has the "North American HQ" of Mercedes, but it's not THE HQ.

 

[hammer42]

Any advantage Hamilton has, is offset by encroaching on Toronto Maple Leafs territory, and also the NHL is not too wild about having a team so close to Buffalo, NY, as at least 10% of the Sabres fan base is from Southern Ontario. They is arguably the main reason the NHL has not been interested in adding Hamilton.



The Videotron Centre was built in 2016, and seats over 18,000 for hockey, so there are no arena issues. Also, Quebec is far enough away from Montreal that encroaching on their territory would not be an issue. Also, comparing Quebec City with Hamilton, when they have about the same amount of people in the metro areas, is bizarre.


Winnipeg is not going to relocate anytime soon.

Actually the Sabers fan base in southern Ontario is a lot less than 10% it is closer to 5% & those fans come Niagara not Hamilton & those fans are casual not season ticket holders besides it could be a lot less fans going to sabers games from southern Ontario since the sabers have restricted ticket sales to southern Ontario fans .

Yes I said Hamilton & Quebec City are about the same size in population but Hamilton has the GTHA & southwestern Ontario areas they can draw from which combined with Hamilton's population is around 6 - 8 million people that is what makes Hamilton a large market & Quebec City a small market don't get me wrong I want the Nordiques back in the NHL. along with Hamilton but the NHL. has to choose between a small market & a large market they are going to choose the large market

 

[Jets4Life]

Yes I said Hamilton & Quebec City are about the same size in population but Hamilton has the GTHA & southwestern Ontario areas they can draw from which combined with Hamilton's population is around 6 - 8 million people that is what makes Hamilton a large market & Quebec City a small market don't get me wrong I want the Nordiques back in the NHL. along with Hamilton but the NHL. has to choose between a small market & a large market they are going to choose the large market

That's like saying the Devils are a huge market team, since they have NYC and Long Island to draw from as well as Newark and suburbs.

The truth is that there are virtually no Devils fans in the majority of the NYC metro area. It's predominantly conc3ntrated in Newark and Northern New Jersey.

It would be the same for Hamilton. Nobody from the GTA cares about a Hamilton NHL franchise, just like Nobody in Toronto cares about the CFL Tiger Cats.

If you think Hamilton has 8,000,000 people that are keen on seeing a Hamilton NHL team, you are being delusional.

 

[Felonious Python]

LA houses two football teams in the same arena, as well as (currently) two NBA teams.

Both New York NFL teams share a building. Hotelling's law in action.

Why would Hamilton get a team over Toronto? Why would someone from Toronto go to Hamilton? The franchise is immediately worth more in Toronto.

 

[Tawnos]

LA houses two football teams in the same arena, as well as (currently) two NBA teams.

Both New York NFL teams share a building. Hotelling's law in action.

Why would Hamilton get a team over Toronto? Why would someone from Toronto go to Hamilton? The franchise is immediately worth more in Toronto.

The Leafs will never, ever share their arena with another NHL team. We talk about Hamilton because they have the other NHL sized arena in the GTA.

If someone wants to build another arena in Toronto, which has been proposed before (well, Markham), then you can talk about Toronto.

 

[jkrdevil]

LA houses two football teams in the same arena, as well as (currently) two NBA teams.

Both New York NFL teams share a building. Hotelling's law in action.

Why would Hamilton get a team over Toronto? Why would someone from Toronto go to Hamilton? The franchise is immediately worth more in Toronto.

All of those examples are where both teams existed the in the market before sharing the venue. Except the NFL where allowing the Chargers share the venue was a contingent the Rams had to agree to in order for the league to allow them to move back to LA from St. Louis. Also the other LA example is the building is owned by the Kings ownership and neither NBA team (and the Clippers are currently building their own arena). Finally, when the Jets moved to the Meadowlands the leasing was controlled by the State of NJ. MetLife was a joint venture between the two teams after playing 25+ years in same place and was to ease the cost burden on the teams to build it.

So there really isn’t an example of a team who controls its venue allowing a team from out of market move in as a tenant.

 

[Section 325]

I think if Hamilton had an NHL team, the Leafs would do just fine because they have an enormous following. It would be a blip to them.

Buffalo on the other hand might be very damaged by it. I've read that over 15% of their season ticket holders are from Canada and I don't doubt a significant portion of their crowds come across the border. Their attendance was absolutely terrible in the time during the pandemic when there weren't crowd restrictions anymore but the border was still a significant hurdle to cross.

If people in St Catharine's, Niagara Falls, and Hamilton had a team they:

1) Could hypothetically afford to see (not Leafs prices)

2) Could get to without crossing the border

It would pull the rug out from under the Sabres a bit.

 

[adsfan]

I don't see the Twin Cities supporting another hockey team because they are the smallest market with all 4 pro sports in the US. They also have the U of Minnesota to compete for sports dollars in football, basketball and hockey.

Hamilton cannibalizes the Sabres. The NHL won't allow that to happen.

Cincinnati has the Reds and Bengals and is not growing as a metro area. Pro basketball failed when Oscar Robertson was the star player. Hockey has failed repeatedly in the market. UC has recent success in football and draws well in basketball. I don't see a third pro team playing there in my lifetime.

Milwaukee has 2 pro teams, 3 if you count the Packers fan base. The metro population is half of the Twin Cities. The city has been losing corporate HQs during recent decades. The Bucks owners are anti-hockey, so Fiserv Forum is closed to a resident team.

 

[Felonious Python]

All of those examples are where both teams existed the in the market before sharing the venue. Except the NFL where allowing the Chargers share the venue was a contingent the Rams had to agree to in order for the league to allow them to move back to LA from St. Louis. Also the other LA example is the building is owned by the Kings ownership and neither NBA team (and the Clippers are currently building their own arena). Finally, when the Jets moved to the Meadowlands the leasing was controlled by the State of NJ. MetLife was a joint venture between the two teams after playing 25+ years in same place and was to ease the cost burden on the teams to build it.

So there really isn’t an example of a team who controls its venue allowing a team from out of market move in as a tenant.

Sharing an arena is meant to be an example of how it makes sense to be as similar as possible. The Clippers are moving to Inglewood after sharing a building with the Lakers and Kings. It'd be the same issues with the Leafs and Raptors already sharing a building.

and unlike basketball, they can't change the ice between games, so that would be a major hiccup.

Hamilton would be another Anaheim. Even after 30 years of Ducks hockey, plenty of east coast fans don't know that the Anaheim and LA arenas are just 30 miles from each other. Anaheim only gets referenced when talking about sports teams or Disneyland. There's no national presence. (I'm from Orlando, so I say this with love) The Ducks would have more cache if they were the LA or California Ducks. Likely more media attention, easier to sign free agents, etc.

Would a typical free agent rather sign with an LA/Toronto or an Anaheim/Hamilton? Which would be a better draw on the road? Even at their peak these past few years, Tampa Bay isn't a road draw. On the other hand, Detroit is a major draw, no matter how bad they are.

 

[Felonious Python]

I don't see the Twin Cities supporting another hockey team because they are the smallest market with all 4 pro sports in the US. They also have the U of Minnesota to compete for sports dollars in football, basketball and hockey.

Hamilton cannibalizes the Sabres. The NHL won't allow that to happen.

Cincinnati has the Reds and Bengals and is not growing as a metro area. Pro basketball failed when Oscar Robertson was the star player. Hockey has failed repeatedly in the market. UC has recent success in football and draws well in basketball. I don't see a third pro team playing there in my lifetime.

Milwaukee has 2 pro teams, 3 if you count the Packers fan base. The metro population is half of the Twin Cities. The city has been losing corporate HQs during recent decades. The Bucks owners are anti-hockey, so Fiserv Forum is closed to a resident team.

The Twin Cities are a busy market for their size, but they also have a lot of potential corporate support. They have 18 Fortune 500 company HQs, and a likewise high GDP per capita.

Could they hit the equivalent of 10,000 full season tickets? The Minnesota Wild aren't quite the beloved brand the Leafs or Bruins are. They've only been around about 25 years, without much success on the ice.

Minneapolis-St. Paul is probably uniquely positioned to be able to support two NHL teams.


Cincinnati would be a growth market, to me, especially in growing the game into Kentucky.

 

[aqib]

Ah, so basically hubs. Gotcha. Like Atlanta has the "North American HQ" of Mercedes, but it's not THE HQ.

Yeah but having the North American HQ of Mercedes and a bunch of other foreign companies helps Atlanta's economy and sports teams.

That's like saying the Devils are a huge market team, since they have NYC and Long Island to draw from as well as Newark and suburbs.

The truth is that there are virtually no Devils fans in the majority of the NYC metro area. It's predominantly conc3ntrated in Newark and Northern New Jersey.

It would be the same for Hamilton. Nobody from the GTA cares about a Hamilton NHL franchise, just like Nobody in Toronto cares about the CFL Tiger Cats.

If you think Hamilton has 8,000,000 people that are keen on seeing a Hamilton NHL team, you are being delusional.

Well to be fair hardly anyone in Toronto cares about the Argos either. That being said no one is saying that a Hamilton team would draw from Toronto proper but the GTA over all. Just like the Islanders don't draw from Manhattan, Westchester, and Connecticut but there is enough demand in even the part of the NY area for a franchise.

 

[GKJ]

You're ignoring why the first two Atlanta franchises relocated.

And that it is definitely happening

 

[Takuto Maruki]

And that it is definitely happening

That doesn't stop Canada dead enders from hitting Atlanta with the stick of 'Sun Belt teams are bad from a fandom standpoint'