Expansion to 36, which city is number 36?

[tucker3434]

If talking about TV markets, then it’s Toronto hands down.
Canadas TV numbers are better than US numbers, with a much smaller population.

But no new tvs, just leafs territory.

 

[voyageur]

But no new tvs, just leafs territory.

That's the thing about the Houston obsession. Doesn't Dallas already broadcast there? If you like hockey watch the Stars...how many new fans are you creating? And the new $1 billion franchise price, if Fertitta was trying to lowball the NHL to get in, well the bar is set higher. I think you could maybe get someone to shell a $1 billion in the ATL, because that's the southern hub for Corporate America. And you have the whole state of Georgia to win over. Probably get that out of Hamilton too.

 

[Felonious Python]

That's the thing about the Houston obsession. Doesn't Dallas already broadcast there? If you like hockey watch the Stars...how many new fans are you creating? And the new $1 billion franchise price, if Fertitta was trying to lowball the NHL to get in, well the bar is set higher. I think you could maybe get someone to shell a $1 billion in the ATL, because that's the southern hub for Corporate America. And you have the whole state of Georgia to win over. Probably get that out of Hamilton too.

It's not about splitting existing fan bases to generate more total money. It's about tapping into markets to create new fans.

Dallas and Houston are over a 3-hour drive apart, so not too close.

 

[TheLegend]

That dude posts the same bait in every thread. He’s not interested in a discussion, just trolling Atlanta.

Note how Hamilton keeps creeping up the list with every post too.

 

[Jets4Life]

That is interesting, wonder if it has do with a bunch of snowbirds in SA? NHL needs corporate dollars locally, not sure if the Austin crowd would spend their entertainment dollars on Hockey season tickets. More of an Arts and Culture crowd from my experience.

Austin would definitely support NHL hockey. They have a metro population of 2.4 million with virtually no pro sports teams.

 

[hammer42]

Hamilton & Quebec City are about the same size population but what makes it bigger & more lucrative is that Hamilton is a part of the GTHA & being the gateway to southwestern Ontario with a total population combined 6 - 10 million people plus there are more billionaires & billion dollar companies in southern Ontario than any where else in the country not to mention there are billion dollar companies that are involved in the renovation of FirstOntario center .

Quebec City just dose not have the big out areas to draw from to make it a big market team & it will always be considered a small market .

 

[hammer42]

I don't think the NHL. give both Arizona & Atlanta 2nd or 3rd chances it might be one or the other not both along with Houston , Hamilton & Kansas City .

If Arizona Coyotes ownership really want to build that arena they really need to make deal with the Suns on funding this arena & as co tenant because the coyotes can not survive with out a co tenant to help pay there bills look what happen in Glendale .

Let me tell you something do you think that the people that are dropping $300 million dollars on this reno of FOC. are doing it for minor league hockey please they are doing it for a major league sports team along with A -List events such as concerts , UFC. & WWE. events .

 

[takimaki]

That's the thing about the Houston obsession. Doesn't Dallas already broadcast there? If you like hockey watch the Stars...how many new fans are you creating?

Houston and Dallas are rival cities and wouldn’t give each other the time of day. They’re also about the same distance apart as Ottawa and Toronto.

 

[voyageur]

Houston and Dallas are rival cities and wouldn’t give each other the time of day. They’re also about the same distance apart as Ottawa and Toronto.

I understand that, like Montreal/Quebec, Toronto/Hamilton. I guess Houston is new hockey fans though... But i get it. Definitely has corporate potential. Personally i think Houston is the safety valve if Winnipeg relocates.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

If Atlanta indeed gets a third chance I don't want them named Thrashers I want that name reserved for being used as a rebrand of the Braves. Mockingbirds would be a good name they are closely related to thrashers thus keeping the bird theme (also seen with the Falcons and Hawks) intact.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Put it in the Hammer

 

[Jets4Life]

Hamilton & Quebec City are about the same size population but what makes it bigger & more lucrative is that Hamilton is a part of the GTHA & being the gateway to southwestern Ontario with a total population combined 6 - 10 million people plus there are more billionaires & billion dollar companies in southern Ontario than any where else in the country not to mention there are billion dollar companies that are involved in the renovation of FirstOntario center .

Any advantage Hamilton has, is offset by encroaching on Toronto Maple Leafs territory, and also the NHL is not too wild about having a team so close to Buffalo, NY, as at least 10% of the Sabres fan base is from Southern Ontario. They is arguably the main reason the NHL has not been interested in adding Hamilton.

Quebec City just dose not have the big out areas to draw from to make it a big market team & it will always be considered a small market .

The Videotron Centre was built in 2016, and seats over 18,000 for hockey, so there are no arena issues. Also, Quebec is far enough away from Montreal that encroaching on their territory would not be an issue. Also, comparing Quebec City with Hamilton, when they have about the same amount of people in the metro areas, is bizarre.

I understand that, like Montreal/Quebec, Toronto/Hamilton. I guess Houston is new hockey fans though... But i get it. Definitely has corporate potential. Personally i think Houston is the safety valve if Winnipeg relocates.

Winnipeg is not going to relocate anytime soon.

 

[Jets4Life]

That's the thing about the Houston obsession. Doesn't Dallas already broadcast there? If you like hockey watch the Stars...how many new fans are you creating?

Houston and Dallas are in the top 5 largest metro areas in the USA. They are both larger than Toronto. Texas also has 30 million people. That is like saying "why give a team to Calgary, as Alberta already has the Oliers!"

And the new $1 billion franchise price, if Fertitta was trying to lowball the NHL to get in, well the bar is set higher.

Fertilla realises the NHL is very keen on expanding to Houston, but wants to negotiate a expansion price that is relatively low. This is why Utah was given the Coyotes. Houston has always been the preferred destination, but the holdup is the expansion fee.

I think you could maybe get someone to shell a $1 billion in the ATL, because that's the southern hub for Corporate America. And you have the whole state of Georgia to win over.

Houston is a bigger city than Atlanta. Additionally, if one were to slice a line between Dallas and Houston, and divide the state in half, both areas would still easily be more populated than Georgia. The metro area has about 7.5 million people.

 

[tucker3434]

That's the thing about the Houston obsession. Doesn't Dallas already broadcast there? If you like hockey watch the Stars...how many new fans are you creating? And the new $1 billion franchise price, if Fertitta was trying to lowball the NHL to get in, well the bar is set higher. I think you could maybe get someone to shell a $1 billion in the ATL, because that's the southern hub for Corporate America. And you have the whole state of Georgia to win over. Probably get that out of Hamilton too.

Whether you have media market coverage is determined by whether there’s a team in that area, not if you broadcast there. The NHL is currently missing 2 of the top 7 media markets in the US. Should be obvious why they want to fill those holes.

I think GTA2 will happen eventually but with the leafs standing in the way, I expect other low hanging fruit will get done first.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I wouldn't call the NHL's interest in Houston an obssession. It's just common sense. It's by far the largest untapped hockey market. Even a chance there is worthwhile if there's a party willing to pay the NHL's asking price.

Also, it's not like they're bending over backwards and letting them in for a dime, a nickle, and a penny here while everyone else has to fork over a billion bucks.

 

[hockey20000]

1 and 2 has to be atlanta and houson based on all tte rumours. 3: i would say phoenix? then 4: kansas city/quebec?/gta/portland?

 

[Felonious Python]

Whether you have media market coverage is determined by whether there’s a team in that area, not if you broadcast there. The NHL is currently missing 2 of the top 7 media markets in the US. Should be obvious why they want to fill those holes.

I think GTA2 will happen eventually but with the leafs standing in the way, I expect other low hanging fruit will get done first.

The Leafs (and Sabres) probably wouldn't like another team nearby, but it's not up to them. They can't really 'block' another team if the rest of the owners around the league truly believe an additional team there would be good business. They don't require unanimous approval.

Toronto, Boston, Chicago, and Minneapolis/St. Paul could each reasonably have a second NHL team. I'd rather go to growth markets and get new fans, but if the NHL suddenly got interested in a second team somewhere, that would also make sense.

 

[varsaku]

Austin would definitely support NHL hockey. They have a metro population of 2.4 million with virtually no pro sports teams.

The Longhorns have a following that rivals pro teams. They have the lion's share of the Austin's sports market. Yes, there isn't much competition from from the other big 4 leagues but majority of corporate dollars are already going to the longhorns which they would need to eat into.

 

[Tawnos]

The Leafs (and Sabres) probably wouldn't like another team nearby, but it's not up to them. They can't really 'block' another team if the rest of the owners around the league truly believe an additional team there would be good business. They don't require unanimous approval.

Toronto, Boston, Chicago, and Minneapolis/St. Paul could each reasonably have a second NHL team. I'd rather go to growth markets and get new fans, but if the NHL suddenly got interested in a second team somewhere, that would also make sense.

They don't require unanimous consent, but they do require the consent of the team that already exists in the territory.

Section 4.1(c) of the NHL Constitution states: "'Home territory,' with respect to any member means: Each Member Club shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city which it is located and within fifty miles of that city's corporate limits."

Section 4.3 of the NHL constitution lays out the Territorial Rights of Members. One of those territorial rights is that "No franchise shall be granted for a home territory within the home territory of a member, without the written consent of such member."

Some of us here have interpreted that second one to mean that the team's arena can't be within the home territory of another without permission from the existing team. Others, including myself, interpret it to mean that home territories can't overlap without permission from the existing team. In either case though, a team can absolutely block another team in its market. They might still agree to it, especially if the new expansion team is going to pay them a fee that they don't have to share with the rest of the league, but they can absolutely block it.

In Hamilton's case, no matter which interpretation you go with, they'd need permission from the Maple Leafs for sure because the FirstOntarioCentre is definitely within the Maple Leafs' home territory. Whether they'd need Buffalo's is up to some interpretation. The arena is a few miles outside of the Sabres' home territory. The corporate limits of Hamilton is a little less than half in, half out. A Hamilton team's territorial rights would absolutely overlap both.

TLDR: You can't just put a team in an existing team's territory without their permission.

 

[Jets4Life]

The Leafs (and Sabres) probably wouldn't like another team nearby, but it's not up to them. They can't really 'block' another team if the rest of the owners around the league truly believe an additional team there would be good business. They don't require unanimous approval.

The Leafs definitely have clout over if Hamilton get an NHL team or not, especially since Hamilton is within what is considered Leafs territory. To a lesser the extent, the Sabres don't want Hamilton, considering Buffalo is a small market team and has considerable ticket base across the border, which would likely evaporate if Hamilton is granted a franchise.

Toronto, Boston, Chicago, and Minneapolis/St. Paul could each reasonably have a second NHL team. I'd rather go to growth markets and get new fans, but if the NHL suddenly got interested in a second team somewhere, that would also make sense.

A second team in Boston, Chicago, or Minneapolis would definitely fail.

 

[Tawnos]

I understand that, like Montreal/Quebec, Toronto/Hamilton. I guess Houston is new hockey fans though... But i get it. Definitely has corporate potential. Personally i think Houston is the safety valve if Winnipeg relocates.

Hamilton just isn't going to create that many new hockey fans. Most of Hamilton's fans will be ex-Leafs fans, or people who root for both for a while. QC is different, because I think there's a distinction from Montreal's fan base there. The problem with QC is the ceiling, which is low and would be hit pretty quickly.

With some exceptions, you just don't really get much of a following outside of a team's home market in pro sports. It's the same thing here in Charlotte. There are some Hurricanes fans here, but just not that many. If Charlotte ever got large enough to host both NHL and NBA, a Charlotte team could definitely work and would have a totally separate fanbase from the Hurricanes. As it stands right now, the metro just doesn't have enough people to justify both winter leagues (also the arena is basketball specific, but I'm just talking about the market alone). One day maybe.

The existence of the Dallas Stars is a complete non-factor in whether Houston is a good idea or not.

 

[Felonious Python]

The Leafs definitely have clout over if Hamilton get an NHL team or not, especially since Hamilton is within what is considered Leafs territory. To a lesser the extent, the Sabres don't want Hamilton, considering Buffalo is a small market team and has considerable ticket base across the border, which would likely evaporate if Hamilton is granted a franchise.



A second team in Boston, Chicago, or Minneapolis would definitely fail.

Buffalo's health with another GTA team is definitely a good question. The smallest US market in the league, and Buffalo is the home of only one Fortune 500 HQ.

Additional teams in Toronto, Boston, Chicago, and Minneapolis would end up like the NY Mets, being overshadowed by their bigger brother, but those cities have enough population and potential corporate support.

Arenas aren't getting much bigger, despite population growth.


Corporate support is also what pushes Austin, San Francisco, and Charlotte into the mix, and leaves my city of Orlando out.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The Longhorns have a following that rivals pro teams. They have the lion's share of the Austin's sports market. Yes, there isn't much competition from from the other big 4 leagues but majority of corporate dollars are already going to the longhorns which they would need to eat into.

Most markets have major college presence either in or within 40 minutes of the city center in addition to pro teams. Austin would be a great market to put a pro team in.

 

[Jets4Life]

The Longhorns have a following that rivals pro teams. They have the lion's share of the Austin's sports market. Yes, there isn't much competition from from the other big 4 leagues but majority of corporate dollars are already going to the longhorns which they would need to eat into.

College sports don't necessarily attract the same type of sponsors as the pro leagues. Columbus is home to the Ohio State Buckeyes, and it is a massive university. However, for most of their existence, the Blue Jackets have had good attendance, in spite of having shitty teams.

One of the reasons could be that there is no big 4 sports league in the city except the Blue Jackets. Thus is precisely why I think Austin would be a winner. No doubt about it.

 

[Jets4Life]

Additional teams in Toronto, Boston, Chicago, and Minneapolis would end up like the NY Mets, being overshadowed by their bigger brother, but those cities have enough population and potential corporate support.

I would have to disagree that two teams in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Boston would be feasible. For one thing, Chicago was not big enough to support two NFL teams, so the Cardinals ended up leaving for St.Louis, and then Arizona. Chicago does have two baseball teams, but the Cubs are the big players in town, and the White Sox are relegated to a second class team

With Minneapolis, there is only 3.5 million people in the area, so I can't see giving a franchise to the city of Minneapolis working. They tried this in the 70s, giving St.Paul a WHA franchise, and despite having a better team than the North Stars, could not survive. The same goes for Boston, which was the original home of the New England Whalers. Other than NYC, LA, and Toronto, I doubt two NHL teams could work in the same metro area.

Even in LA and NY, the Kings and Rangers are the team that most people love, while the Ducks and Islanders are relegated to the back pages.