Post-Game Talk: Expansion Draft Results - Poll

[cbcwpg]

Still a chance for Maurice to get Chevy to bring Thorburn back...

 

[Shazzam]

I think G.M.G.M played Chevy Like a Banjo.

He bluffed Chevy into negotiations and extracted 11 spot movement in the 1 st round.

Chevy should have said I do not care who you take on exposed list. -Take Dano and we lose a former 2013 1 st rounder.....or
- Take Enstrom and we gain 6 mill in Cap relief and I will replace him in U.F.A . ( by the way Enstrom says he is not waiving his N.M.C for you if he us selected. )

Let me know who you pick........

One thing that can't be stressed enough is that there was a promise made to Toby that they would do their best to work something out to keep him. Otherwise he wouldn't have waived, and the team would be forced to go 4-4. You can't essentially do nothing once Toby waived. Sends a very bad message to the team. Makes Chevy look like a hypocrite. Makes the club look like a bush league operation. There seems to be about 20% here that hate this move, but I'm sure 100% of the team love it and have a high regard for Chevy and his word. Especially guys like Perreault, Lowery, Copp, Dano, even Mathias.

 

[nobody important]

Still a chance for Maurice to get Chevy to bring Thorburn back...

This seems to contradict the oft reported condition that a player Vegas acquires in the XD can't be traded back to that team for a set period. Thorburn's situation would not seem to be covered by that restriction, though. LV chose a UFA and a UFA can sign anywhere on July 1st. Presumably, they wouldn't pick a UFA without an assurance he would sign there. Unless it was a UFA they agreed not to sign as part of other facets of the deal. This all seems like shenanigans to me. I will seriously laugh if Thorburn re-signs with the Jets.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

If the organization wanted to trade Dano, Vegas would have got him and we would have picked 13th.

Should'a, would'a, could'a. That was then, this is now. We have a few spare parts in addition to Dano. We have a few needs, an upgrade at 3C and at 3RW would be nice. More picks are never a bad thing to have.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Because we would have had to add a pick or a prospect to get Vegas to select Dano instead of Toby.... or Myers if that's how the cookie crumbled.

This way we actually get something back for Dano instead of loosing something to get rid of him

We have plenty of other assets we could have added to Dano to make sure it would happen.

The something we got back for Dano could have been Valimaki or Lily instead of Vesa - so we would have got something.

This way - you are assuming we can get something back for him. He may be waived. He may clear waivers. A lot of good players do at this time of year. We may be stuck with him.

 

[surixon]

Should'a, would'a, could'a. That was then, this is now. We have a few spare parts in addition to Dano. We have a few needs, an upgrade at 3C and at 3RW would be nice. More picks are never a bad thing to have.

Well we have no way of knowing if Vegas was at all Interested in Dano. All the chatter at the time indicated that they wanted Armia pretty badly. Granted Toby waiving made that moot but I still feel there had to have been an agreement to protect him to get him to waive despite what they say.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Well we have no way of knowing if Vegas was at all Interested in Dano. All the chatter at the time indicated that they wanted Armia pretty badly. Granted Toby waiving made that moot but I still feel there had to have been an agreement to protect him to get him to waive despite what they say.

Logically I'm inclined to agree with the bolded but I just don't think they would have bare face lied. The promise to 'do what they could' may have been stronger than what they implied. I think that's about it.

Of course we can't know with certainty that they would have been interested in Dano but it seems credible relative to what they got and to their current needs. Alternatively Petan might have looked even better to them because of being waiver exempt if nothing else.

Remember that we also lost a 3rd in that swap of draft positions. We tend to gloss over that. Probably in part because it is a '19 pick. Distance reduces its impact. So how about Dano plus that same 3rd? Need more? OK, I'll throw in Kosmachuk and Gennaro, both. Or make it both Dano and Petan and VGK adds something.

We could go on and on. The point is that we had lots of assets that reasonably should have been attractive to VGK and are just spare parts to us.

I don't want to restart the whole XD discussion. What's done is done and Vesalainen still looks like a good prospect. This is about whether or not VGK would give us anything worthwhile for Dano now. Regardless of what was done then, he looks like a player they could have a good spot for and they have assets we could use. How about Jon Merrill? A very good defense, no offense Dman. He could push Chiarot out of the PB spot now and replace Toby on the 3rd pair next year.

 

[surixon]

Logically I'm inclined to agree with the bolded but I just don't think they would have bare face lied. The promise to 'do what they could' may have been stronger than what they implied. I think that's about it.

Of course we can't know with certainty that they would have been interested in Dano but it seems credible relative to what they got and to their current needs. Alternatively Petan might have looked even better to them because of being waiver exempt if nothing else.

Remember that we also lost a 3rd in that swap of draft positions. We tend to gloss over that. Probably in part because it is a '19 pick. Distance reduces its impact. So how about Dano plus that same 3rd? Need more? OK, I'll throw in Kosmachuk and Gennaro, both. Or make it both Dano and Petan and VGK adds something.

We could go on and on. The point is that we had lots of assets that reasonably should have been attractive to VGK and are just spare parts to us.

I don't want to restart the whole XD discussion. What's done is done and Vesalainen still looks like a good prospect. This is about whether or not VGK would give us anything worthwhile for Dano now. Regardless of what was done then, he looks like a player they could have a good spot for and they have assets we could use. How about Jon Merrill? A very good defense, no offense Dman. He could push Chiarot out of the PB spot now and replace Toby on the 3rd pair next year.

Well it seemed that Chevy was trying to work a larger deal with Vegas but it didn't work out. No real way of knowing who or what was involved.

They org may have lied to protect the player. They have gone out of their way to shield players in the past so that wouldn't be surprising. Toby the selfless hero sounds better than Toby the player who would only waive if he was guaranteed not to be taken. Not saying the org lied or not but that could be a scenario.

I think the org is still very high on Petan and may not hqve wanted anything to do with sending him Vegas' s way. Given how he's started preseason I don't really blame them.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

We have plenty of other assets we could have added to Dano to make sure it would happen.

The something we got back for Dano could have been Valimaki or Lily instead of Vesa - so we would have got something.

This way - you are assuming we can get something back for him. He may be waived. He may clear waivers. A lot of good players do at this time of year. We may be stuck with him.

LV didn't make that kind of deal with any team.

Not sure why you'd think LV would have given us something for them taking him at the XD

 

[Whileee]

If the organization wanted to trade Dano, Vegas would have got him and we would have picked 13th.

Why does this erroneous premise continue to crop up?

Here are the two scenarios that the Jets could consider...

Enstrom doesn't waive NMC...

Jets protect 4 D and 4 F, leaving Vegas to choose from Lowry, Armia, Copp and Dano (hint: they wouldn't select Dano).

Enstrom waives NMC...

Jets protect 3 D and 7 F, leaving Vegas to choose from Enstrom and Copp or Dano. I still don't think they take Dano, but regardless the Jets absolutely couldn't risk losing Enstrom and have to go back to Chiarot as their #3 LHD. I really doubt that the Jets wanted to lose Copp, either, but the main issue was protecting Enstrom in this scenario.

 

[Gm0ney]

Vegas was interested in Armia, weren't they? If Enstrom hadn't waived, the Jets lose Armia (and Vesalainen) but gain Valimaki or Liljegren? Or maybe they give Vegas something to sweeten the pot to take Dano - probably not as much as moving down 11 spots (the gap between Armia and Dano seems a lot smaller than Enstrom and Thorbz).

We'll see how it shakes out, I guess.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Well it seemed that Chevy was trying to work a larger deal with Vegas but it didn't work out. No real way of knowing who or what was involved.

They org may have lied to protect the player. They have gone out of their way to shield players in the past so that wouldn't be surprising. Toby the selfless hero sounds better than Toby the player who would only waive if he was guaranteed not to be taken. Not saying the org lied or not but that could be a scenario.

I think the org is still very high on Petan and may not hqve wanted anything to do with sending him Vegas' s way. Given how he's started preseason I don't really blame them.

I don't think we know that the bolded is true. Did we even get any well founded rumours? AFAIK there was a little speculation and that was about it. If so what was it? I'm inclined to believe that the deal he was working on was the deal he got.

I don't find that lying scenario believable. Not impossible, but extremely remote. I don't see anything to protect there. If Toby had agreed to waive on condition he be protected by a deal I certainly would not have thought any less of him.

I'm impressed with the way Petan seems to have committed to winning a spot and I'm sure the Jets are too. But the only place he can win is a bottom 6 RW. He not only has to abandon his natural position but also has to play his off-side. I'm hoping he can win a spot but win or lose, it is not a big deal for the organization. He will be a bottom 6 winger who just barely beat out some other bottom 6 winger for the job. So only a very small value increment. I certainly hope they didn't drop from 13 to 24 and give up a 3rd just for that very small improvement.

 

[JetsFan815]

Because we would have had to add a pick or a prospect to get Vegas to select Dano instead of Toby.... or Myers if that's how the cookie crumbled.

This way we actually get something back for Dano instead of loosing something to get rid of him

Why would Vegas not want a 22 year old player who has had NHL success? They already had 3 first round picks, I doubt that moving up 11 spots on the draft was that important to them to pass up on young NHL talent. If any sweetner was needed from the Jets side it likely would have been pretty minor. Chevy did say in his interview that the draft pick swap happened at the end when "the possibility arose that we didn't have to lose by anyone". Now we might lose Dano for nothing ( although I don't think he's getting waived, knowing the Jets they'll just leave him in the PB). If Dano is not part of the Jets future plans I hope we can somehow recoup the XD value by moving Dano and Vesalainen for Suzuki or Brannstrom as unlikely as that seems

 

[JetsFan815]

Vegas was interested in Armia, weren't they? If Enstrom hadn't waived, the Jets lose Armia (and Vesalainen) but gain Valimaki or Liljegren? Or maybe they give Vegas something to sweeten the pot to take Dano - probably not as much as moving down 11 spots (the gap between Armia and Dano seems a lot smaller than Enstrom and Thorbz).

We'll see how it shakes out, I guess.

Yep it was confirmed by one of the media people that Vegas wanted Armia. Personally considering how small the gap is between Armia/Copp/Dano and how the Jets situation at forward looks with waiver eligibility, I would have taken that and just drafted at 13.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Why does this erroneous premise continue to crop up?

Here are the two scenarios that the Jets could consider...

Enstrom doesn't waive NMC...

Jets protect 4 D and 4 F, leaving Vegas to choose from Lowry, Armia, Copp and Dano (hint: they wouldn't select Dano).

Enstrom waives NMC...

Jets protect 3 D and 7 F, leaving Vegas to choose from Enstrom and Copp or Dano. I still don't think they take Dano, but regardless the Jets absolutely couldn't risk losing Enstrom and have to go back to Chiarot as their #3 LHD. I really doubt that the Jets wanted to lose Copp, either, but the main issue was protecting Enstrom in this scenario.

Because some people think it makes sense - from both sides.

Dano over Lowry, Copp or Armia? I don't think so. What if the Jets added to Dano? Remember there was a 3rd included in what actually happened. That may not have been enough. Add Petan and Vegas sends something back.

The Jets had to make a deal to protect Enstrom. OK, fine. How much should it take to protect a 33 YO pending UFA whose play has declined substantially? How about we offer to add that 3rd on condition they take Dano?

I really don't want to keep rehashing this but there are just too many potential scenarios to be able to dismiss the concept as easily as you do. Stop being dismissive and I'll stop speculating.

The fact is that Chevy did not get the best conceivable result from the XD. Neither did he get taken to the cleaners. We got a good prospect and didn't lose an awful lot.

Apparently Chevy decided that keeping his roster together was very important. IMO he overrated the value of that because some of that roster was of marginal value to us. It may have been of more value to VGK if it was offered to them.

That's why this premise continues to crop up. If Vesalainen turns into a good player for us it will die out. If he busts, it will come back stronger than ever. Maybe even as strong as Stempniak.

 

[Whileee]

Because some people think it makes sense - from both sides.

Dano over Lowry, Copp or Armia? I don't think so. What if the Jets added to Dano? Remember there was a 3rd included in what actually happened. That may not have been enough. Add Petan and Vegas sends something back.

The Jets had to make a deal to protect Enstrom. OK, fine. How much should it take to protect a 33 YO pending UFA whose play has declined substantially? How about we offer to add that 3rd on condition they take Dano?

I really don't want to keep rehashing this but there are just too many potential scenarios to be able to dismiss the concept as easily as you do. Stop being dismissive and I'll stop speculating.

The fact is that Chevy did not get the best conceivable result from the XD. Neither did he get taken to the cleaners. We got a good prospect and didn't lose an awful lot.

Apparently Chevy decided that keeping his roster together was very important. IMO he overrated the value of that because some of that roster was of marginal value to us. It may have been of more value to VGK if it was offered to them.

That's why this premise continues to crop up. If Vesalainen turns into a good player for us it will die out. If he busts, it will come back stronger than ever. Maybe even as strong as Stempniak.

I'm stating the facts of the expansion draft options. You are speculating about deals that weren't made, without any evidence that they would have been considered.

The error I am correcting is the notion that the swap of picks was to protect Dano. There just isn't any factual basis because in any scenario the Jets would have had to expose one or more additional players that they valued more highly than Dano (i.e. Enstrom, Armia, Lowry).

Speculation that Vegas would have taken Dano and something else instead of the #13 has no factual basis. This was a hard nosed negotiation. Chevy placed a very high value on playing Enstrom instead of Chiarot on LD, and on keeping Lowry. McPhee is no dummy, and knew he had leverage.

 

[Whileee]

Why would Vegas not want a 22 year old player who has had NHL success? They already had 3 first round picks, I doubt that moving up 11 spots on the draft was that important to them to pass up on young NHL talent. If any sweetner was needed from the Jets side it likely would have been pretty minor. Chevy did say in his interview that the draft pick swap happened at the end when "the possibility arose that we didn't have to lose by anyone". Now we might lose Dano for nothing ( although I don't think he's getting waived, knowing the Jets they'll just leave him in the PB). If Dano is not part of the Jets future plans I hope we can somehow recoup the XD value by moving Dano and Vesalainen for Suzuki or Brannstrom as unlikely as that seems

I think it's pretty obvious that if Vegas would have accepted Dano instead of the #13 pick swap, Chevy would have jumped at it. That wasn't the leverage McPhee was using. If you recall the rumours out of Vegas before the draft, there were indications that they were targeting Enstrom (per Dreger, I think) or Armia / Lowry (if Enstrom didn't waive his NMC). Why would McPhee let the Jets off the hook by taking a player that was a lower priority for the Jets? He used his leverage to get what he wanted... a move up to #13.

 

[mcpw]

If Dano isn't better than Abramov, Motte and Hannikainen then his value is much lower than I thought. I think he's clearly above those three, especially for a team that is clearly in a "win now" mode.

Yeah but... which of their 6 top9 wingers I listed is he clearly better than to have a "good shot" at a top9 spot? Panarin, Atkinson, Foligno, Jenner, Bjorkstrand, Anderson. I just added their prospects to add to my point that CBJ is one of the deeper teams in the league regarding wingers.

 

[Neuf]

A little unfair vitriol. If Chevy can swing Thorburn with an add to Vegas, I'm suggesting he could have done Dano and an add had he wanted to, and I further suggest that the add would not have been as much. It's possible, and I'm not saying everything revolved around Dano at the draft either OR that he was our BPA for Vegas.

I expect this dumping from the trade board, not here.

 

[AWSAA]

I think it's pretty obvious that if Vegas would have accepted Dano instead of the #13 pick swap, Chevy would have jumped at it. That wasn't the leverage McPhee was using. If you recall the rumours out of Vegas before the draft, there were indications that they were targeting Enstrom (per Dreger, I think) or Armia / Lowry (if Enstrom didn't waive his NMC). Why would McPhee let the Jets off the hook by taking a player that was a lower priority for the Jets? He used his leverage to get what he wanted... a move up to #13.

Still in denial that Chevy was played at the expansion draft? He should've dared McPhee to take Toby and his 6mill cap hit over the much younger Dano (maybe include a small add). Methot was flipped for a future 2nd, fair to say Toby would've returned less/no better. Trading down was an act of weakness.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm stating the facts of the expansion draft options. You are speculating about deals that weren't made, without any evidence that they would have been considered.

The error I am correcting is the notion that the swap of picks was to protect Dano. There just isn't any factual basis because in any scenario the Jets would have had to expose one or more additional players that they valued more highly than Dano (i.e. Enstrom, Armia, Lowry).

Speculation that Vegas would have taken Dano and something else instead of the #13 has no factual basis. This was a hard nosed negotiation. Chevy placed a very high value on playing Enstrom instead of Chiarot on LD, and on keeping Lowry. McPhee is no dummy, and knew he had leverage.

I'll grant you the bolded. I've been speculating all along - because we don't have any hard facts other than what actually happened.

I have no way of knowing which players McPhee would have preferred and none of us knows what Chevy may have offered other than what happened.

My own guess, if Toby had not waived and no side deal had been made, is that VGK would have taken Lowry but it is entirely possible that they would have preferred Armia, or even Copp. I would guess that Dano would have been next after those 3 but behind by only a small margin. I think my speculation that it would not have taken a very large add to push him toward taking assets that don't have much value to us is pretty reasonable.

But that is the limit of what I can claim. Maybe McPhee disagreed with my valuation. Maybe Chevy disagreed with how much I would have been willing to offer. The thing is that there were so many different possibilities that I find it hard to believe that none of them could have been acceptable to both.

Like I said before, I'm not too twisted up over the XD. I don't think we did too badly in the end. If we assume that we would have taken Lily at 13 we might have taken a bust (just maybe). Apparently he hasn't been too impressive so far. And yes, I know it is extremely early to leap to conclusions but the risk is there. That's why he fell to 17. But wouldn't it be nice to have that potential top pairing right hander in the system when dealing with the Trouba situation?

 

[Deedog99]

Still in denial that Chevy was played at the expansion draft? He should've dared McPhee to take Toby and his 6mill cap hit over the much younger Dano (maybe include a small add). Methot was flipped for a future 2nd, fair to say Toby would've returned less/no better. Trading down was an act of weakness.

Don't get the Dano love. Guy has shown nothing since he's been here. Might not even make the 4th line. There's no way Vegas would have taken him over Enstrom. Enstroms cap hit is a non factor as they are not near the cap limit.

 

[ffh]

Don't get the Dano love. Guy has shown nothing since he's been here. Might not even make the 4th line. There's no way Vegas would have taken him over Enstrom. Enstroms cap hit is a non factor as they are not near the cap limit.

Part of the cost they paid was for vegas not to take mathias also. Who is better then dano.Its never been just about dano and enstrom.We made a deal that vegas reported after the xd that the only players that the jets had excepted in the negotiations for them to take were stuart pavs or Thorburn.

 

[Bob E]

Why does this erroneous premise continue to crop up?

Here are the two scenarios that the Jets could consider...

Enstrom doesn't waive NMC...

Jets protect 4 D and 4 F, leaving Vegas to choose from Lowry, Armia, Copp and Dano (hint: they wouldn't select Dano).

Enstrom waives NMC...

Jets protect 3 D and 7 F, leaving Vegas to choose from Enstrom and Copp or Dano. I still don't think they take Dano, but regardless the Jets absolutely couldn't risk losing Enstrom and have to go back to Chiarot as their #3 LHD. I really doubt that the Jets wanted to lose Copp, either, but the main issue was protecting Enstrom in this scenario.

How was Copp available Whileee?

I agree, moving from #13 to #24 was more about Enstrom than Dano.

 

[ffh]

How was Copp available Whileee?

I agree, moving from #13 to #24 was more about Enstrom than Dano.

Copp i dont think was signed yet so he couldnt have been exposed. Would have been mathias who i believe is better dano. The cost they paid was also not to take mathias and a few others too.