Exercising Patience with youth

[Tak7]

Kessel is not a building block imo, but the rest I agree with.

Only Leafs fans would consider a 26 year old point-a-game player who puts up 30+ goals with inferior line mates as "not a building block".

So ridiculous

 

[The_Chosen_One]

So because we paid 8 mil to Kessel we are out of money. The problem was paying money to Clarkson. Don't blame Kessel because Nonis was stupid enough to give Clarkson that crappy deal. Kessel makes a lot of money, but not so much that it severely ruins the team. The contract hasn't even started yet ffs.

What you need to do is actually start building around them. Get a better defensive core. Get more balance in the lower lines. Get a coach with a stronger and more stable system. One player does not create a fall of an entire organization. Crappy management that don't take into account team needs are the problem

What's interesting is that many were big fans of Clarkson's trade. At that time, it didn't make sense to me at all considering that Kulemin was clearly a better fit for Kadri. I also felt that the only way Clarkson was going to work is if he played off wing with Kessel. Give him the good PP minutes as well and consider having JVR play with Kadri, who really needs a more defensively responsible, but skilled, linemate.

As for Kessel, I think his future performance is going to be predicated on Bozak watching tapes of Andy MacDonald and JVR being more consistent. I am not going to deny that both had good seasons, but you can't be coasting. Kadri gets regularly blamed for not showing up, but Bozak and JVR do the same thing. Neither are as skilled as Kadri (never mind Kessel) so I can't see that being acceptable. JVR should start watching how Gabriel Landeskog plays. Become a leader, play a reliable brand of hockey and use that size to create space for linemates who are much better being playmakers on his line.

 

[TheScruffington]

Only Leafs fans would consider a 26 year old point-a-game player who puts up 30+ goals with inferior line mates as "not a building block".

So ridiculous

Yes, it's completely ridiculous.

There couldn't possibly be any other team in the league who would think Kessel wouldn't be a building block for their team.

Right?

 

[Regina Pat]

Yes, it's completely ridiculous.

There couldn't possibly be any other team in the league who would think Kessel wouldn't be a building block for their team.

Right?

Ohhhhhh ho ho ho I see, I see what you did.

But seriously, The B's thought he was a building block, no doubt, the difference is, the had a million other building blocks to work with (See Rask, Chara, Bergeron, Lucic, Krecji)

Anyway,

My opinion is, the leafs have a few important pieces.

Kessel, Kadri, van Riemsdyk, Reilly, Gardiner, Bernier are your buliding blocks.
Gauthier, Biggs, (8th Overall), Finn, Brown, Levio all require patience.

 

[showtime8]

Only Leafs fans would consider a 26 year old point-a-game player who puts up 30+ goals with inferior line mates as "not a building block".

So ridiculous

I'm on the fence with Kessel.

He does make players around him better on the offensive side of the puck. JVR has a career year on that line and Bozak is a 50 point player with the potential to be a lot higher in a full season.

The problem is that he is awful defensively and doesn't compete at 100% all of the time.

You do need players like him on your team though and they don't come around too often.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

OP, you certainly present a great point. Patience is the key to building a good franchise.

Simply put, if you can deal with some middling years (when have we not?), guys like Percy, Finn, Leivo, etc., grow up.

It happens in a painful way, drafting in the twenties once or twice, then in the elite picks here and there, but those kids grow up, and have the chops to make the team better. Very soon, we'll see Percy and Granberg take a spot with the big club. There's two of a possible six, that could be upgraded. Finn is there behind them. Morgan Rielly WILL be everything we hope he is.

Up front, you can say goodbye to punchers, and you see how far D'amigo (who was great at RPI/WJC) and Ashton have come. Holland can step into a 3rd line role as soon as this year. Carrick looks great, regardless of where he was picked. When I saw him with Brampton in the playoffs here in Windsor, he was excellent.

Bottom line: Teams like Anaheim, San Jose, and St.Louis, are built by drafting a mix of role players and front line guys. We have the role players drafted, with Rielly/Kessel/Bernier/Phaneuf/Kadri as our future, let's add a solid piece at 8, who can replace a guy like Lupul or Bozak in the future, as an upgrade (Nylander, Ehlers, Ritchie), and see what we can do moving forward.

Note: I am on the rum, so this is drawn out...

 

[pooleboy]

I guess you wouldn't want Duchene, Backstrom, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins, Skinner, Tavares, Datsyuk, just to name a few players who had a worse GA20 during 5-on-5 than Kessel.

Here's a hint, the team they play for and their linemates kind of matter. Heck, JVR and Bozak were both far worse.

Kessel is 4th in the league for TMGA20 (5-on-5). That's ridiculous.

Kessel also had a GF20 of 1.013 versus his GA20 of 0.894 for 5-on-5. In other words: You're blatantly wrong.

Then how on earth is he a minus player?
If kessel was so good and a crucial building block why did boston chose kricji over him (and win a cup with him over kessel)
Kessel has been a minus his whole career, on good teams and bad.

Kessel was also sheltered from the best lines of the other team (mcclement usually took that assignment) that would score against him.

With kessel at 8*8 and "our cornerstone/franchise/whatever" player the leafs will never win.

Inb4 u go find other super advanced stats to try and prove a point.

 

[rdawg1234]

The problem is that he is awful defensively and doesn't compete at 100% all of the time.

You do need players like him on your team though and they don't come around too often.

He does when it matters, I.e 20 points(13 goals) in 21 playoff games.

I dont care about a player that maybe doesnt compete every single game as long as he helps us when it matters and that's the playoffs. He clearly had an extra step to his game in the playoffs last season.

He is a key piece offensively, but people keep acting like this is a star league and there's only 1 player on the ice.

How bout we actually get a responsible centre, a better supporting cast(not 5 forwards that are basically kessel-lites) a better defense and then worry about a PPG winger who's never injured and steps up in the playoffs.

Kessel doesn't get traded unless the package is huge in my eyes.

Phaneuf can get traded because of his failure in pressure situations(but i wouldnt just give him away)

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Then how on earth is he a minus player?
If kessel was so good and a crucial building block why did boston chose kricji over him (and win a cup with him over kessel)
Kessel has been a minus his whole career, on good teams and bad.

Kessel was also sheltered from the best lines of the other team (mcclement usually took that assignment) that would score against him.

With kessel at 8*8 and "our cornerstone/franchise/whatever" player the leafs will never win.

Inb4 u go find other super advanced stats to try and prove a point.

I remembered Kessel exposing Chara quite a few times last playoffs. This season, he has been producing against any competition. Say what you might about his defensive game, but his versatility is undeniable. On the other hand, forwards who are much stronger offensively than Kessel like Crosby and Malkin disappeared against Boston.

 

[Funk21]

We do need to slow things down with the younger players in this media circus we call Toronto. The problem is the 28-30 who we already know what they are and we continue to put our rose coloured glasses on rather than accepting that they are not a great players (Phaneuf, Clarkson, etc). There are a lot of good pieces on this team we should not change that unless its an upgrade positionnaly while remaining young.

Here would be an example. ROR of Col had a 64 point season playing on the wing, not his natural position. He is an RFA, I know he many not be what some hockey analyst consider a 1A Center but he is a workhorse who plays a two way game and between Kessel and JVR would be a Dynamo. I would offer sheet him 6.5-7 x 7 if possible(yes I know compensation could be as much as 2x1,1x2,1x3 ) but you know what your getting, he's 23, its an upgrade over Bozak who I like in the number two and we can get some real payback for Kadri so the cost is minimal but you have improved positionally while still staying young. If we are gonna throw 5 million at a guy like Bolland (who I like) but not at 5 million who is coming of a severe injury, is 30, is injury prone at the expense of Kadri we are idiots and deserve to be the laughing stock of the NHL.

 

[Atomos2]

Then how on earth is he a minus player?
If kessel was so good and a crucial building block why did boston chose kricji over him (and win a cup with him over kessel)
Kessel has been a minus his whole career, on good teams and bad.

Kessel was also sheltered from the best lines of the other team (mcclement usually took that assignment) that would score against him.

With kessel at 8*8 and "our cornerstone/franchise/whatever" player the leafs will never win.

Inb4 u go find other super advanced stats to try and prove a point.

Umm...you're completely wrong . Where did you get that from? Kessel wasn't sheltered in fact it was basically the opposite. The Bozak line represented the team's shutdown line (we were forced to play best on best most nights when Bolland went down). Mcclement was like the shutdown guy for a couple weeks after Bolland went down and was awful in that role so they used Bozak to play against other teams top lines. In fact Mcclemment was more sheltered than Kadri.

So in reality we not only expected Kessel to be an elite scorer but also a shutdown winger that is able to cover up for our weak defence.

 

[diceman934]

I like JVR's contract, potential upside, but gosh he's not a very consistent forward. He does look impressive in the playoffs, though, but improvement in that area is required. I don't think he has the creativity of Kadri to simply ride on skill and it's not like Naz isn't physical.

Trading Kessel for a young, TWD top pairing defenceman is a good idea IMO. Build from the net up, but I can't see Shanny tanking. We're going to see some effective tinkering and compete.

Agreed.....I would not include JVR on any list of players I would not trade as he is not very consistent, he would be a player that can benefit from a culture change, one that demands hard work from each other. I do not want to tank, but do want to ship out Dion, Lupul, and not bring back Bolland at a high cap hit as well as Kulemin, and McClements if the asking price is to high. Franson and Reimers both need a change of scenery as well. Kessel is the key to getting quality pieces as his value is high to a team like the Blues who needs more scoring or any other top team that needs more scoring. They would view him as a player that can get them over the top...we are not at that point.

 

[Faltorvo]

We do need to slow things down with the younger players in this media circus we call Toronto. The problem is the 28-30 who we already know what they are and we continue to put our rose coloured glasses on rather than accepting that they are not a great players (Phaneuf, Clarkson, etc). There are a lot of good pieces on this team we should not change that unless its an upgrade positionnaly while remaining young.

Here would be an example. ROR of Col had a 64 point season playing on the wing, not his natural position. He is an RFA, I know he many not be what some hockey analyst consider a 1A Center but he is a workhorse who plays a two way game and between Kessel and JVR would be a Dynamo. I would offer sheet him 6.5-7 x 7 if possible(yes I know compensation could be as much as 2x1,1x2,1x3 ) but you know what your getting, he's 23, its an upgrade over Bozak who I like in the number two and we can get some real payback for Kadri so the cost is minimal but you have improved positionally while still staying young. If we are gonna throw 5 million at a guy like Bolland (who I like) but not at 5 million who is coming of a severe injury, is 30, is injury prone at the expense of Kadri we are idiots and deserve to be the laughing stock of the NHL.

We can't offer sheet where the return needs our 2nd in it, because we already traded it away.

 

[Faltorvo]

Agreed.....I would not include JVR on any list of players I would not trade as he is not very consistent, he would be a player that can benefit from a culture change, one that demands hard work from each other. I do not want to tank, but do want to ship out Dion, Lupul, and not bring back Bolland at a high cap hit as well as Kulemin, and McClements if the asking price is to high. Franson and Reimers both need a change of scenery as well. Kessel is the key to getting quality pieces as his value is high to a team like the Blues who needs more scoring or any other top team that needs more scoring. They would view him as a player that can get them over the top...we are not at that point.

Don't discount the needs for some American teams needing a guy like kessel just to become relivent.

Teams like Nashville,Florida maybe even a phoenix

 

[diceman934]

We do need to slow things down with the younger players in this media circus we call Toronto. The problem is the 28-30 who we already know what they are and we continue to put our rose coloured glasses on rather than accepting that they are not a great players (Phaneuf, Clarkson, etc). There are a lot of good pieces on this team we should not change that unless its an upgrade positionnaly while remaining young.

Here would be an example. ROR of Col had a 64 point season playing on the wing, not his natural position. He is an RFA, I know he many not be what some hockey analyst consider a 1A Center but he is a workhorse who plays a two way game and between Kessel and JVR would be a Dynamo. I would offer sheet him 6.5-7 x 7 if possible(yes I know compensation could be as much as 2x1,1x2,1x3 ) but you know what your getting, he's 23, its an upgrade over Bozak who I like in the number two and we can get some real payback for Kadri so the cost is minimal but you have improved positionally while still staying young. If we are gonna throw 5 million at a guy like Bolland (who I like) but not at 5 million who is coming of a severe injury, is 30, is injury prone at the expense of Kadri we are idiots and deserve to be the laughing stock of the NHL.

Are you crazy offer sheet him and over pay him as well. We could simply trade for him and get a much better price if we identified him as a franchise player ( which he is not) because that is what you are suggesting when you are prepared to give up the picks you are suggesting. Why not simply try to sign Stastny if he is a Free agent...no high cost and a player who would fit in nice as our 1st line center. This would also make available Bozak who is at his highest value.

 

[hoglund]

Fans that have lost it and are now patients being walked around the grounds by student volunteers.

this is sad, but so true.

 

[egd27]

let me ask u this:
elite player who scores 36 goals and 50 goals scored on him
or regular player scores 20 goals and 15 are scored on him

which one would u prefer?

kessel is an elite INDIVIDUAL player... man, its amazing how many people are baffled by individual stats rather than team success.

Personally i like a winning team rather than a rocket rouchard winner (o wait kessel isn't that) personally i would rather have a bunch of plugs who win than a star player and loses. i may be in the minority tho.

I challenge you to find 4 players in the league that score 20 and only have 15 scored against them.

 

[hullsy47]

Don't discount the needs for some American teams needing a guy like kessel just to become relivent.

Teams like Nashville,Florida maybe even a phoenix

florida for sure .they may make a pitch for kessel,i still say kessel is in the wrong market ,good player but will never be a leader in toronto,

 

[thewave]

I challenge you to find 4 players in the league that score 20 and only have 15 scored against them.

Trading Kessel is a big old slam face off brick wall move.

These players, take your pick of my list of moveable or (*)sign-able and moveable.

Dion
Lupul
Gardiner
Franson*
Kules*
Bolland*
Clarkson
Gleason
Ranger*

 

[Byron Bitz]

Kessel is not a building block imo, but the rest I agree with.

Hes 26, top 10 in points 3 years in a row, hes locked down long term and likes to play here but hes not a building block?

 

[ACC1224]

The Leafs as a Franchise have as much patience as a good portion of the fan base. Not nearly enough.

 

[hotpaws]

The Leafs as a Franchise have as much patience as a good portion of the fan base. Not nearly enough.

Leaf fans are the most patient in the league as evidenced by there continued support of a truly dismal franchise . The problem was we hired your hero Burke - you know the guy who said he was born impatient - and are now paying for his impatience .

 

[Drew75]

A couple of funny points. The OP complains about trading 2nd round picks, but uses Bernier as an example of our young core - um ... yeah.

I also don't get the hate on for Bolland. before he got injured, he was one of our best all round players and the team played way better than when he got hurt. He came back from a horrendous injury, and didn't get the chance to get his game back - but he was an excellent, prototypical 3rd line centre when healthy. I know he's not Crosby or a shiny new draft pick - but a good team is made up of a lot more than just flashy all-stars.

Nonis did move a couple of 2nds, but got Bernier, Bolland, and Holland for them. None of those players are "old", and we would be lucky to get players like them 5 years from now with those picks.

I know this board overvalues the unknown potential of picks - but come on, that's getting silly.

I'd also like to point out that Nonis has never traded young players for old players - and has pointedly refused to do so. I know there are issues with this team, but it's like having a leaky roof so you want to burn the whole house down.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Players I want to keep:
Kessel - Offensive catalyst, without him we give much more offensive responsibility on players that won't be able to handle it. JVR, Bozak, Kadri and Lupul won't be as productive compared to ice time without him. He's our Kane, of course we keep him.
JVR - Has got worse defensively, is a bit inconsistent. Still young, good contract and a very good player. Keeper.
Bozak - Could be pushed down the depth chart, but I do like his contract and I think he is reliable center that could excel as a 2C or 3C.
Kadri - He is still very capable of 60 points with physicality and can be a bit of a pest. With the right wingers I think he could be very valuable.
Gauthier - Upside is often seen as exclusively about position in depth chart or point production. I think Freddy could become the type of 3C that is extremely rare and hard to get.

Gardiner - He is great on possession, he is on for very few goals against even strength and could become a legitimate #2D. I think a lot of people get too caught up with his mistakes, but young defenders make mistakes. Even the best.
Rielly - Extremely high upside, looks on target to reach it. I think he'll be great as a depth puck mover next year. Untouchable in my eyes.
Granberg, Percy, Finn, Nilsson, Loov - A lot of good prospects and I'd like to see us keep them all. Until a few of these reach NHL and look good, I don't think we can call defense a position of strength for prospects and I'd rather let them fight it out for the spots around Gardiner and Rielly.

Bernier - He's our #1. He will need to get better with consistency and concentration, could work some on his five hole etc. I have all the faith in the world that he'll take this step.

---

As you see I think we are set on the important position in goal, backup could be Montoya but it's not a huge issue either way. I think we have most tools for what we need in the defense among the names I mention. Offense, defense, mobility, IQ and some physicality from Granberg and Nilsson especially. I think we need to rebuild support players in our top 9 among forwards though. Size, speed, two-way game and physicality on Kadris wings. Size and two-way game on Bozaks old spot. A cycling, two-way line on Bozaks third until Gauthier is ready to step in there.

 

[Nithoniniel]

A couple of funny points. The OP complains about trading 2nd round picks, but uses Bernier as an example of our young core - um ... yeah.

I also don't get the hate on for Bolland. before he got injured, he was one of our best all round players and the team played way better than when he got hurt. He came back from a horrendous injury, and didn't get the chance to get his game back - but he was an excellent, prototypical 3rd line centre when healthy. I know he's not Crosby or a shiny new draft pick - but a good team is made up of a lot more than just flashy all-stars.

Nonis did move a couple of 2nds, but got Bernier, Bolland, and Holland for them. None of those players are "old", and we would be lucky to get players like them 5 years from now with those picks.

I know this board overvalues the unknown potential of picks - but come on, that's getting silly.

I'd also like to point out that Nonis has never traded young players for old players - and has pointedly refused to do so. I know there are issues with this team, but it's like having a leaky roof so you want to burn the whole house down.

The issue with Bolland is his injuries, not his level of play.