Evansville Lease Trouble

[mfrerkes]

The real question is, did the city give the new SPHL owner a better deal than they were offering Geary, or did the new SPHL owner take the deal that Geary turned down - and in that case, how is he going to keep a lower budget team afloat with a lease that supposedly is untenable for an ECHL team?

The Ford Center gave the SPHL owner the exact same offer Geary refused to sign. There was no favoritism.

Economics in the SPHL are based around lower overhead. The money a typical SPHL team spends on talent and league-related fees are significantly less than the ECHL.

 

[Gibbie42]

The real question is, did the city give the new SPHL owner a better deal than they were offering Geary, or did the new SPHL owner take the deal that Geary turned down - and in that case, how is he going to keep a lower budget team afloat with a lease that supposedly is untenable for an ECHL team?

This. Apparently the answer is by partnering with VenuWorks who had been aiding the city in the lease negotiations with the IceMen.

Ok, so, the Ford Center couldn't count on an ECHL franchise to over-pay in order to cover operating costs for a venue that should never have been built, but a SPHL franchise will. Everyone may as well just dump their last dollar betting on how long this fiasco will last. I set the over/under at two seasons. Many want to make Geary the sole villain, but the truth will reveal something different, and every hockey fan in Evansville will ultimately be the loser. Will the Purple Aces see a sudden, inexplicable raise in rent...?

And this. The Aces are currently under the same lease terms that the IceMen are, and by all accounts suffering. Word I'm hearing is that next season they're looking to move all of the women's games back on campus and some of the men's games, because they can't afford the current contract. Their lease is up as well. Meanwhile this sudden involvement of VenuWorks in the new team looks shady as hell.

So why couldn't the City of Evansville come up with a lease agreement for the Icemen? The Sin Bin has a letter from the SPHL welcoming Evansville, and noting that ticket prices should be half of what the Icemen have been charging. That would indicate the lease amount has to be less than what has been charged...or the new owner just needs a loss for tax purposes.

As there hasn't been a formal announcement from the ECHL regarding the shifting of the franchise to Owensboro, KY, makes you wonder if the owner of the Icemen won't have another option of moving the team to another city; or if the team goes dormant for a season.

In any event, if I were an Icemen supporter, I'd be extremely hacked off by these developments.

The lease is supposed to be the same as the final offer to the IceMen. Time and public records will tell. And I am.

It may be due the fact that Evansville doesn't want the negative PR hit. The city wanted both the Icemen and the Purple Aces to cover the operating expenses of the Ford Center. That's too much for either to finance. But hey, make Geary the scapegoat and a narrative can be framed to soften any negative impact on the arena and its management. Meanwhile, losses for the Ford Center steadily grow.

I traveled to Ft. Wayne a few weeks ago to see the Komets-IceMen game (which we one, thank you very much ) After the game a small group of fans were down by the IceMen locker room waiting for them to head to the bus. Michael Franke stopped by to chat. He had been attending meetings with the city at the request of the IceMen. He looked at us and told us that the mayor was trying to finance the Ford Center on the backs of the Aces and the IceMen and that it was not fair. I think he was as frustrated with the process as Geary was.

I really want to know the details of this partnership with VenuWorks. How can an entity that was negotiating with the team, suddenly take a stake in the new team. And if they're willing to partner with a team to an unknown extent, why not offer to partner with the existing one? There's some backdoor dealings going on here and I don't like it.

 

[royals119]

This. Apparently the answer is by partnering with VenuWorks who had been aiding the city in the lease negotiations with the IceMen.

The lease is supposed to be the same as the final offer to the IceMen. Time and public records will tell. And I am.

I really want to know the details of this partnership with VenuWorks. How can an entity that was negotiating with the team, suddenly take a stake in the new team. And if they're willing to partner with a team to an unknown extent, why not offer to partner with the existing one? There's some backdoor dealings going on here and I don't like it.

It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves. Maybe they figure they can use their current booking, sales, and operations staff to run the team also. If they can get an SPHL franchise cheaply (I have no idea what they cost), and run a bare bones operation with lower player costs maybe they figure they can turn a profit. Or if not, at least get more people in the building via cheaper ticket prices, and make up the difference on concessions.

SMG tried this with the Royals for a couple years. When the Kings sold their half of the team to the arena authority they tried to cut costs by having one staff run the building and the team. There were advantages and disadvantages to it, but the budget cuts didn't result in increased ticket sales or cash flow, and they sold the team to a local businessman after two years of losses.

Mostafa Afr did this in Elmira too. He was the arena manager and the team owner, and he would shift costs from one to the other to show a profit on the building and a loss on the team. VenuWorks seems more on the up and up, but they might have incentives in each contract that result in some of the same type of things going on.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves. Maybe they figure they can use their current booking, sales, and operations staff to run the team also. If they can get an SPHL franchise cheaply (I have no idea what they cost), and run a bare bones operation with lower player costs maybe they figure they can turn a profit. Or if not, at least get more people in the building via cheaper ticket prices, and make up the difference on concessions.

SMG tried this with the Royals for a couple years. When the Kings sold their half of the team to the arena authority they tried to cut costs by having one staff run the building and the team. There were advantages and disadvantages to it, but the budget cuts didn't result in increased ticket sales or cash flow, and they sold the team to a local businessman after two years of losses.

Mostafa Afr did this in Elmira too. He was the arena manager and the team owner, and he would shift costs from one to the other to show a profit on the building and a loss on the team. VenuWorks seems more on the up and up, but they might have incentives in each contract that result in some of the same type of things going on.

My guess is the tickets are not going to be significantly cheaper, if at all.

 

[Scoutin1]

It appears that Gibbie is one of the Evansville hockey fans that stand to lose in this scenario. I'm truly sorry, Gibbie, you deserve a better outcome. If you want to get on board with the Orange and Black Machine, we'll save a spot for you!

 

[GindyDraws]

It appears that Gibbie is one of the Evansville hockey fans that stand to lose in this scenario. I'm truly sorry, Gibbie, you deserve a better outcome. If you want to get on board with the Orange and Black Machine, we'll save a spot for you!

Don't want to make this a bidding war, but there's another team in Indiana to consider if you're not interested in the Komets Dynasty.

 

[mfrerkes]

It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves.

Not bloody likely. The team already has an owner. His name is Mike Hall.

 

[Scoutin1]

Don't want to make this a bidding war, but there's another team in Indiana to consider if you're not interested in the Komets Dynasty.

Well played. And I'll tell you, the renovation at the Coliseum is first rate! It's an outstanding facility. I wish the Fuel nothing but the best.

 

[Gibbie42]

Thanks guys, but Owensboro (assuming there's actually a puck drop there next season) is not very far away. If not that, well, Nashville is 2 1/2 hours away, might talk the mister into a partial season down there. Really depends on how it all shakes out and who exactly is involved. I've heard names that don't make me happy.

And Ferkes is right, there's a putative owner, he's set up to take the fall if things go south. He's a nice guy, I hope he doesn't lose his kids college funds, and his house.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves. Maybe they figure they can use their current booking, sales, and operations staff to run the team also. If they can get an SPHL franchise cheaply (I have no idea what they cost), and run a bare bones operation with lower player costs maybe they figure they can turn a profit. Or if not, at least get more people in the building via cheaper ticket prices, and make up the difference on concessions.

SMG tried this with the Royals for a couple years. When the Kings sold their half of the team to the arena authority they tried to cut costs by having one staff run the building and the team. There were advantages and disadvantages to it, but the budget cuts didn't result in increased ticket sales or cash flow, and they sold the team to a local businessman after two years of losses.

Mostafa Afr did this in Elmira too. He was the arena manager and the team owner, and he would shift costs from one to the other to show a profit on the building and a loss on the team. VenuWorks seems more on the up and up, but they might have incentives in each contract that result in some of the same type of things going on.

He also had SMG in here for one season. That....didn't go so well.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Thanks guys, but Owensboro (assuming there's actually a puck drop there next season) is not very far away. If not that, well, Nashville is 2 1/2 hours away, might talk the mister into a partial season down there. Really depends on how it all shakes out and who exactly is involved. I've heard names that don't make me happy.

And Ferkes is right, there's a putative owner, he's set up to take the fall if things go south. He's a nice guy, I hope he doesn't lose his kids college funds, and his house.

Well if its that risky where that could happen maybe he shouldn't buy the team. Minor league sports in most cases is a losing proposition.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Don't want to make this a bidding war, but there's another team in Indiana to consider if you're not interested in the Komets Dynasty.

How are the Furl doing? I know on the ice not so grand. About .500 which isn't horrendous as last year. I had doubts that it would work and last a long time

 

[crimsonace]

How are the Furl doing? I know on the ice not so grand. About .500 which isn't horrendous as last year. I had doubts that it would work and last a long time

Doing fairly well. On-ice, around .500 and trending a positive direction, which isn't bad for the only true expansion team in the league the last two years. Front office is doing well, and the team is gaining steam and attention in the local market. A good lease & relationship with the Fairgrounds and a really nicely-renovated building helps. Having the Chicago affiliation moves the needle with quite a few people in this market (there are a lot of Chicago transplants, and neophyte hockey fans around here have largely adopted the Blackhawks as their team, at least the last few years).

Not sure why one would have doubts. Indy has had a hockey team every year but one (and a half - when Nelson Skalbania folded the Racers halfway through the WHA's last season) since 1974, and while franchises have shifted leagues due to a lot of factors that have nothing to do with attendance (the IHL's rising costs, the CHL's incredible travel, for example), the fan base has stayed pretty steady throughout several leagues and levels. A lot more stability in minor pro hockey now than before, and Indy's a prime market. A northern city with a metro population of 2 million that has a solid hockey fanbase is always going to be an attractive market.

 

[BladesFan10]

Someone I recently talked to that was at the BOG meeting has told me not is extremely unlikely that the Icemen will be playing next season and their current plans are a complete disaster. He also told me it is entirely possible that the Icemen never return to the league, something some owners prefer to give the league an even number of teams for 2017.

I was also told that when Geary went to the city to get a reduction in his lease, the city's offer was almost double what he was already paying. Geary threw a temper tantrum and is now on his way to Owensboro.

On the SPHL front, the team supposedly signed the original offer given to Geary. However, the ECHL doubts this team will survive in Evansville unless it has an owner willing to continually dump piles of money into the organization year after year and it is unlikely the ECHL will be returning to the market in the future.

 

[Gibbie42]

I don't know why that he keeps being characterized as "throwing a temper tantrum." He's angry, yes, because he feels like he's been disrespected and dismissed. He said to me directly that he'd done thousands of leases and had never failed to get one done before and that he'd never been treated like that in his life. What he said from the beginning was that he felt like they were trying to force him out. If throwing in the towel after that and looking for an alternative is a temper tantrum, well ok. I do worry about the plans in Oboro though. It seems too ambitious and seems hastily thrown together (despite the haters who decided he planned it a year ago). I have doubts it can get done but I'm hearing that they're moving forward with prelims that need done (soil testing and the like). Did you hear whether or not the vote went forward? I haven't asked directly but I'd heard something about it being tabled for 45 days.

You're correct, that the new owner is allegedly signing the same agreement (though it must be noted equates to less money for the city because there are fewer dates) that the IceMen left on the table. This is part of the reason I suspect some back door dealings. Unless he's really got piles of cash hiding and just lives rather modestly, I don't see how he can swing the lease.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Someone I recently talked to that was at the BOG meeting has told me not is extremely unlikely that the Icemen will be playing next season and their current plans are a complete disaster. He also told me it is entirely possible that the Icemen never return to the league, something some owners prefer to give the league an even number of teams for 2017.

I was also told that when Geary went to the city to get a reduction in his lease, the city's offer was almost double what he was already paying. Geary threw a temper tantrum and is now on his way to Owensboro.

On the SPHL front, the team supposedly signed the original offer given to Geary. However, the ECHL doubts this team will survive in Evansville unless it has an owner willing to continually dump piles of money into the organization year after year and it is unlikely the ECHL will be returning to the market in the future.

One wouldn't have even needed to be at that meeting to have that feeling that they'll never ice. I think that's been somewhat uttered in this thread already. They certainly won't ice this year.

But I am curious what other league moves did you hear from this person who was there?

I think by 2017 the league will see a couple of folds. Brampton, Wheeling and Elmira are guesses.

 

[BladesFan10]

One wouldn't have even needed to be at that meeting to have that feeling that they'll never ice. I think that's been somewhat uttered in this thread already. They certainly won't ice this year.

But I am curious what other league moves did you hear from this person who was there?

I think by 2017 the league will see a couple of folds. Brampton, Wheeling and Elmira are guesses.

While I did not ask him about those team this time, I have had conversations in the past with him and at each of those times nothing was ever brought up in the league meetings besides the changes of ownership. From what I've gathered over through those conversations regarding Wheeling and Elmira, no news is good news. Again though, this was also before Elmiras current set of problems.

On Brampton however, he did drop a hint the other night that the league wants more west coast teams with a goal of 30 total while also hinting in the past that their financials were a big issue for them.

Moving Brampton, Elmira and Evansville franchises out west along with adding one more expansion franchise is not entirely out of the realm of possibility especially with how trigger happy the ECHL is and would also move Fort Wayne, Indy and Cincinnati back to the east along with Worcester.

This last paragraph is entirely my opinion though, so take it for the grain of salt that it's worth.

 

[BladesFan10]

I don't know why that he keeps being characterized as "throwing a temper tantrum." He's angry, yes, because he feels like he's been disrespected and dismissed. He said to me directly that he'd done thousands of leases and had never failed to get one done before and that he'd never been treated like that in his life. What he said from the beginning was that he felt like they were trying to force him out. If throwing in the towel after that and looking for an alternative is a temper tantrum, well ok. I do worry about the plans in Oboro though. It seems too ambitious and seems hastily thrown together (despite the haters who decided he planned it a year ago). I have doubts it can get done but I'm hearing that they're moving forward with prelims that need done (soil testing and the like). Did you hear whether or not the vote went forward? I haven't asked directly but I'd heard something about it being tabled for 45 days.

While he did not state if the vote was tabled or not, what was stated was that the Icemen franchise was going ahead with their plans in Owensboro. His statement of they are almost certainly going to miss next season could mean the next vote being to voluntarily suspended the franchise for one season.

To me, while definetly not the same situation, I have a feeling this could be a Columbia Inferno type situation with the following franchise slowly fading away out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

While I did not ask him about those team this time, I have had conversations in the past with him and at each of those times nothing was ever brought up in the league meetings besides the changes of ownership. From what I've gathered over through those conversations regarding Wheeling and Elmira, no news is good news. Again though, this was also before Elmiras current set of problems.

On Brampton however, he did drop a hint the other night that the league wants more west coast teams with a goal of 30 total while also hinting in the past that their financials were a big issue for them.

Moving Brampton, Elmira and Evansville franchises out west along with adding one more expansion franchise is not entirely out of the realm of possibility especially with how trigger happy the ECHL is and would also move Fort Wayne, Indy and Cincinnati back to the east along with Worcester.

This last paragraph is entirely my opinion though, so take it for the grain of salt that it's worth.

I was hoping with AHL going West the opposite would happen. More teams in the East. I mean what's left in the California market for the ECHL?

 

[mfrerkes]

He's a nice guy, I hope he doesn't lose his kids college funds, and his house.

Unfortunately, minor league hockey isn't a business you pursue to make big money. In most cities, the venture will lose money even if local fan support is decent. Having an owner with deep pockets who is willing to spend -- and take losses -- is a must if you want a team to stick around.

Whether Mr. Hall has that mindset (let alone the requisite financial portfolio) nobody really knows at this moment. Time will tell. It was obvious, though, that Geary was expecting the city government to bear much of the huge tab his operation was ringing up in the ECHL. I hope Mr. Hall can make it work. The fans in Evansville deserve stable ownership.

I don't know why that he keeps being characterized as "throwing a temper tantrum." He's angry, yes, because he feels like he's been disrespected and dismissed.

I'm not among those who believe Geary was planning this Owensboro move for over a year. This was clearly a hastily-arranged "Hail Mary" pass to get Winnecke's attention. It failed. That's where Geary is coming off like a spoiled child in my estimation.

Had he simply stated the lease negotiations were unproductive and untenable, then walked away professionally, I'd have a much different opinion of him. Instead, he came up with a certifiably crazy plan that actually costs him 10-15 times more than signing a Ford Center lease. It makes no sense to dump millions into an antiquated arena where the built-in hockey following is much smaller. Yet, that's exactly what Geary is set to do.

The action reeks of someone who is cutting off their nose to spite their face. I just hope Geary backs away from it before he really damages the IceMen.

 

[BladesFan10]

I was hoping with AHL going West the opposite would happen. More teams in the East. I mean what's left in the California market for the ECHL?

California in my mind is gone outside of a single team away from the AHL and NHl sites. In my mind, I think the league might be targeting Arizona (Prescott Valley perhaps), Oregon, Washington and other cities in the Western Midwest.

For Prescott Valley, we have already seen owners willing to spend big money to keep teams going, I don't think it would be too shocking to either see the original owners or new owners ressurect the Sundogs.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

California in my mind is gone outside of a single team away from the AHL and NHl sites. In my mind, I think the league might be targeting Arizona (Prescott Valley perhaps), Oregon, Washington and other cities in the Western Midwest.

For Prescott Valley, we have already seen owners willing to spend big money to keep teams going, I don't think it would be too shocking to either see the original owners or new owners ressurect the Sundogs.

I guess Oregon and Washington would be "interesting"

Ouch the Sundogs? They seemed to serve as a punching bag mostly.

 

[JackalsKnuckles]

California in my mind is gone outside of a single team away from the AHL and NHl sites. In my mind, I think the league might be targeting Arizona (Prescott Valley perhaps), Oregon, Washington and other cities in the Western Midwest.

For Prescott Valley, we have already seen owners willing to spend big money to keep teams going, I don't think it would be too shocking to either see the original owners or new owners ressurect the Sundogs.

Washington is locked up with the WHL and fans seem very happy with that product, as they should be as it is way more entertaining that the ECHL and has more stable rosters and organizations as well. Wenatchee is in the BCHL now and has a good building but that seems like the best fit for them. Bellingham is the only other city of size that could host a team but the Sportsplex is too small for a ECHL team, and that city would be a better fit for the BCHL if they ever move up from the NorPac Tier 3 team that they have there.

The Tacoma Dome is open, but that is only a half hour from Kent, where the Thunderbirds play so I doubt that would work.

Oregon has the Winterhawks, and the rest of the larger towns along I-5 are mostly college towns.

 

[BladesFan10]

Washington is locked up with the WHL and fans seem very happy with that product, as they should be as it is way more entertaining that the ECHL and has more stable rosters and organizations as well. Wenatchee is in the BCHL now and has a good building but that seems like the best fit for them. Bellingham is the only other city of size that could host a team but the Sportsplex is too small for a ECHL team, and that city would be a better fit for the BCHL if they ever move up from the NorPac Tier 3 team that they have there.

The Tacoma Dome is open, but that is only a half hour from Kent, where the Thunderbirds play so I doubt that would work.

Oregon has the Winterhawks, and the rest of the larger towns along I-5 are mostly college towns.

In my mind it is also hard to picture more Western teams. I could possibly see some additional Midwestern teams, but I agree, finding a niche in Cali, Oregon and Washington will be tough. Once again though, that hasn't stopped the ECHL from trying in the past.

 

[GindyDraws]

In my mind it is also hard to picture more Western teams. I could possibly see some additional Midwestern teams, but I agree, finding a niche in Cali, Oregon and Washington will be tough. Once again though, that hasn't stopped the ECHL from trying in the past.

I'm not saying it can't work, but I'm believing that they won't be against the decision to at least try, even though viable markets are few and far between.

I would prefer a return of New Mexico, but that's not gonna happen. If anything, going east or south is the most likely avenue teams might consider, especially as the AHL is transitioning out of its traditional East Coast stronghold with NHL clubs having more say in their farm teams.

As for the SPHL guy, I think what might help him, even though Evansville's offering the same deal, is the fact that fewer games means less money spent on rent, and lower costs with players would be another factor. Of course, if it's to work out, the city would have to at least provide discounts to tenants that would fill the Ford Center multiple times (University of Evansville and the Evansville SPHL team), and the concessions get reduced a bit. I still find the idea of spending $10 on beer to be outrageous with a minor league hockey team.