Evaluating the Rebuild

[God Says No]

I remember at the time when they moved Fisher and Kelly saying that they were moving out the wrong guys. If they wanted to keep veterans who were real pros and character guys - Fisher and Kelly were who you build around.

But, of course, that's what made them pieces that could be moved even at their slightly bloated salaries.

At the time of those trades Phillips and Neil were playing better hockey than they are now.

Yeah, totally agreed. We are playing with different parameters now than at the time of Fisher/Kelly trade. Those guys were younger, more productive and overall brought a lot more to the team than Phillips/Neil/Michalek/Legwand/Greening does now.

My main point is that the money sank into the current crop of "veterans" could have been spent more wisely. Which Stefan and thinkwild seems to be confused about.

Edit: one more point. Also they were moved because they had the most value.

 

[StefanW]

Huh? Read again what I wrote. I never said they couldn't be moved. I just said their value is not even close to what Fisher and Kelly got. Which proves my point that they are not as valuable to the team.

I don't mind having veterans on the team. I do mind having veterans who don't pull their weight.

I stand corrected, I misread what you originally said. My apologies.

 

[mcnorth]

My main point is that the money sank into the current crop of "veterans" could have been spent more wisely.
Edit:

Agreed. Phillips' contract is a year too long. Legwand and 9MM are 7 million we need more from. For a difference of some two or three million dollars we could have Spezza and Hemsky rather than Legz and 9MM. I think overpaying Hemsky as a way to keep Spezza happy might have worked.. but again history and coach/player relationships soured and a star wants out. Too bad. Greening's boated contract wouldn't look as bad playing with Spezza and Hemsky. Hell, Michalek might have taken a budget one year deal to play with those two.

Candies and nuts and ifs and buts...

 

[God Says No]

Agreed. Phillips' contract is a year too long. Legwand and 9MM are 7 million we need more from. For a difference of some two or three million dollars we could have Spezza and Hemsky rather than Legz and 9MM. I think overpaying Hemsky as a way to keep Spezza happy might have worked.. but again history and coach/player relationships soured and a star wants out. Too bad. Greening's boated contract wouldn't look as bad playing with Spezza and Hemsky. Hell, Michalek might have taken a budget one year deal to play with those two.

Candies and nuts and ifs and buts...

Yeah, we're talking about ifs and buts. But that's what these forums are all about. I would have rather overspent on a top 4 D instead of sinking money into the aforementioned veterans.

 

[source]

Campoli - Traded for a 2nd round pick.
Kelly - Traded for a 2nd round pick.

The sens used two 2nds to move up and get Puempel in 2011.

The Campoli and Kelly trades were wise, but trading the 2nd round picks (35th overall Tomas Jurco and 48th overall Xavier Ouellet) for the 24th overall (Puempel) was not smart.

Peumpel is one of only 7 players drafted in the first round that has not played an NHL game.

And of the 23 players drafted after Puempel and before Xavier Ouellet, only 4 have yet to play an NHL game.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

The Campoli and Kelly trades were wise, but trading the 2nd round picks (35th overall Tomas Jurco and 48th overall Xavier Ouellet) for the 24th overall (Puempel) was not smart.

Peumpel is one of only 7 players drafted in the first round that has not played an NHL game.

And of the 23 players drafted after Puempel and before Xavier Ouellet, only 4 have yet to play an NHL game.

And of all those playing how many are succeeding? And what are their projections as an NHL starter?

 

[Micklebot]

The Campoli and Kelly trades were wise, but trading the 2nd round picks (35th overall Tomas Jurco and 48th overall Xavier Ouellet) for the 24th overall (Puempel) was not smart.

Peumpel is one of only 7 players drafted in the first round that has not played an NHL game.

And of the 23 players drafted after Puempel and before Xavier Ouellet, only 4 have yet to play an NHL game.

Should we maybe wait until he plays some NHL games before evaluating the quality of the pick? He's only 22 (in Jan), lots of very good players don't get playing until that age.

 

[source]

And of all those playing how many are succeeding? And what are their projections as an NHL starter?

Should we maybe wait until he plays some NHL games before evaluating the quality of the pick? He's only 22 (in Jan), lots of very good players don't get playing until that age.

Puempel has been overhyped by this board since he was drafted, regularly being voted ahead of the 2011 21st overal pick Noesen in the prospect rankings. Puempel's offensive awareness is not particularly good, his speed is average, and he has no defensive game to speak of. He does have a goal scorer's touch when he gets the puck around the net though, which is the reason for his high goal totals in junior.

 

[Back in Black]

The Campoli and Kelly trades were wise,.

I still don't understand why Murray got rid of Kelly. Such a hard worker (2 way player), and Boston licked their lips when Murray gave them a piece of the Stanley Cup puzzle they were missing.

 

[Micklebot]

Puempel has been overhyped by this board since he was drafted, regularly being voted ahead of the 2011 21st overal pick Noesen in the prospect rankings. Puempel's offensive awareness is not particularly good, his speed is average, and he has no defensive game to speak of. He does have a goal scorer's touch when he gets the puck around the net though, which is the reason for his high goal totals in junior.

This board isn't the only place that had him ahead of Noesen.

TSN had Puempel at 27th, and Noesen out of the top 30 at 33rd in 2011 pre-draft rankings. That's McKenzie's list which is derived from talking with teams scouts.

Pronman had Noesen at 47th and Puempel at 33rd in his pre-draft ranking.

International Scouting Services had Noesen at 49 and Puempel at 29, The Hockey News had Noesen 39th and Puempel 21st. Central scouting had Noesen 35, Puempel 28th. RLR had Noesen 36th, Puempel 15th. ESPN didn't even have Noesen in their top 50, and Puempel at 24th

So as you can see, it's not this board that is going against the grain.

It's also funny how you complain about Puempel's skating when Noesen's skating and feet were described as average at best going into the draft (and that was after he had improved his skating quite a bit).

 

[HonestSenator]

The Campoli and Kelly trades were wise, but trading the 2nd round picks (35th overall Tomas Jurco and 48th overall Xavier Ouellet) for the 24th overall (Puempel) was not smart.

Peumpel is one of only 7 players drafted in the first round that has not played an NHL game.

And of the 23 players drafted after Puempel and before Xavier Ouellet, only 4 have yet to play an NHL game.

Not sure your stat means anything. Peumpel is also the only player to score 30 goals in his rookie AHL season and not get an NHL game. You also left out Prince in your discussion.

Both players are solid. I think the reason they have not seen NHL time is more about the Ottawa development system than their performance.

 

[Sensinitis]

Rebuild has gone well.

In a couple years all our current young players will be better.

Then it'll be time to add to the team. Signings, trades. That'll make the team even better.

That's two steps forward if we just stay patient.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Puemple is likely to be a solid 2nd line winger

If Hoffman can keep being magical on the top line he'll be able to relegate MacArthur to the third line near the end of his contract and that will be great

 

[Benjamin]

I like Puempel but that trade was a mistake. We traded 2 loonies for a loonie.

 

[Sens Rule]

I like Puempel but that trade was a mistake. We traded 2 loonies for a loonie.

It is far too early to tell. Puempel is still young... And a natural scorer. Took a long time for Stone or Hoffman to break in and both are very useful. Puempel is far younger then both. So he has no NHL games so far. He easily could be called up and be a top 9 forward now. It is too early to assess late first rounders now. You can tell who is a huge success and who os a total bust. No one in hockey considers Puempel a bust. At all. He is an unproven, but successful scorer with a lot of tools. He wasn't drafted 5 years ago. He has only played a couple of AHL seasons. Was injured some in junior. He could totally succeed. Was Toffoli a bust? He was not a first. But a highly successful higher draft pick. He took time and call-ups. By the time he made it he was almost a legit star. Puempel has a similar opportunity over the next year or two.

 

[Sens Rule]

Also... The AHL is a very, very low scoring league. Scoring 30 goals or 70 points is a huge accomplishment. Especially as a young player. Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Prince and Puempel have been amazing offensively in the AHL. As well as Da Costa (lighting up KHL now).

It is far too early to judge the younger guys. A 20g 50p player is a very valuable top 9 forward in the NHL. Both Hoffman and Stone have turned into that probably. Prince, Puempel and even Pageau might too. You don't draft guts outside early firsts to break in within a couple of years... You expect to wait into their early 20's.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I still don't understand why Murray got rid of Kelly. Such a hard worker (2 way player), and Boston licked their lips when Murray gave them a piece of the Stanley Cup puzzle they were missing.

Kelly was over paid and at this point is a 3rd or 4th liner. A second was a great return

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

The Campoli and Kelly trades were wise, but trading the 2nd round picks (35th overall Tomas Jurco and 48th overall Xavier Ouellet) for the 24th overall (Puempel) was not smart.

Peumpel is one of only 7 players drafted in the first round that has not played an NHL game.

And of the 23 players drafted after Puempel and before Xavier Ouellet, only 4 have yet to play an NHL game.

Puempel could be playing in the NHL right now though. The only thing holding him back is organizational depth. If hoffman didnt exist puempel would be in the NHL right now and by giving hoffman a 2 way 1 year contract i suspect they planed on calling up puempel if hoffman didnt turn out.

 

[Micklebot]

Puempel could be playing in the NHL right now though. The only thing holding him back is organizational depth. If hoffman didnt exist puempel would be in the NHL right now and by giving hoffman a 2 way 1 year contract i suspect they planed on calling up puempel if hoffman didnt turn out.

I'm not sure it's organizational depth so much as the desire to not have a 3rd of our forward group be rookies in any given game. We've already got Hoffman, Stone, and Lazar as rookies playing, adding Puempel might be a bit much given the team was intent on pushing for a playoff spot to start the season.

Also, while Puempel played the 3rd line role to start off in the AHL, I'm not sure he's built for it at the NHL level. With MacArthur, Hoffman and Michalek all ahead of him, do we really want him playing 4th line minutes? (ok that part is depth)

I imagine if we get a LW injurie, Pageau could be the next callup, though if I were a betting man, I'd probably say Prince gets the callup first.

 

[Back in Black]

Kelly was over paid and at this point is a 3rd or 4th liner. A second was a great return

Ya, that's why he was snapped up in a heart beat for a 2nd rounder. Chiarelli laughed all the way to the bank with his overpaid player and a Stanley Cup.

Time for a new GM, not sure why you are so attached too the guy.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Ya, that's why he was snapped up in a heart beat for a 2nd rounder. Chiarelli laughed all the way to the bank with his overpaid player and a Stanley Cup.

Time for a new GM, not sure why you are so attached too the guy.

I'm not attached to Murray and have been critical of some of his decisions. Kelly is an okay talent but hes a 30 point player that was making to much when he was traded added that to the fact that hes in his 30s and isnt likey to get better more likely only worse. We got everything we could out of Kelly as a sen and we got what his value commanded when we traded him. People should be more pissed at the return for Vermette and fisher. Two players that were legit second line center that left us begging for similar players until we got turris.

 

[coladin]

Good. Stay the course and watch the young guys develop, which gives many here hope

 

[Micklebot]

I'm not attached to Murray and have been critical of some of his decisions. Kelly is an okay talent but hes a 30 point player that was making to much when he was traded added that to the fact that hes in his 30s and isnt likey to get better more likely only worse. We got everything we could out of Kelly as a sen and we got what his value commanded when we traded him. People should be more pissed at the return for Vermette and fisher. Two players that were legit second line center that left us begging for similar players until we got turris.

For what it's worth, we were lacking a 2nd line center for all of what, 60 games? Most of which was in a season we had written off? We acquired Turris early in the year after moving Fisher. Fisher was also 30 yrs old at that point, so you could make the same argument about him more likely to regress than improve (though he started off better than Kelly).

As for the return for Vermette, it was at least an attempt to fill a long time need for the team. It backfired, but the idea was right. Move an expendable asset (Vermette wasn't cracking our top 6) for a position of need (goaltender graveyard afterall). The 2nd round pick has panned out pretty well, so I'm still ok with that trade if we ignore the benefit of hindsight.

Edit: trades that we should be pissed off about are the ones that made no sense from the get go: Havlat for a bag of pucks, Laich for a redundent aging Bondra, Commodore (I liked getting Stillman, wish we re-signed him), Campolli made a bit of sense (from a team need perspective), but imo, if you're going to give up a 1st, aim higher and add a bit more.

 

[Back in Black]

I'm not attached to Murray and have been critical of some of his decisions. Kelly is an okay talent but hes a 30 point player that was making to much when he was traded added that to the fact that hes in his 30s and isnt likey to get better more likely only worse. We got everything we could out of Kelly as a sen and we got what his value commanded when we traded him. People should be more pissed at the return for Vermette and fisher. Two players that were legit second line center that left us begging for similar players until we got turris.

It wasn't Kelly's point production that Boston got from him, it was his 2 way play. You can't teach that and that work ethic is what was missing from the Senators lineup when he was traded.

Any other GM would get rid of the dead wood when rebuilding, not key players.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Rebuild has gone well.

In a couple years all our current young players will be better.

Then it'll be time to add to the team. Signings, trades. That'll make the team even better.

That's two steps forward if we just stay patient.

That's the key right there.