European Hockey Attendance since 2008 & Business

[vorky]

I made a research on the leading European hockey leagues average attendance of the regular season since 2008-09.

I am interested in serious discussion & analysis. I do not comment on the leagues why they are performing like they are. We can discuss. You can comment on this issue if you are following the leagues. Again, the serious analysis is welcomed.

The Swiss´ National League keeps being the most attended league in Europe. The KHL has the best chances to overtake the Swiss soon because the KHL is going to have the best & biggest arenas (on average) in all Europe. Soon the KHL will have at least 12 venues over 10-12 000 seats, including the biggest hockey venue in the world (SKA Arena), and only 4 venues (of 24) under 6 000 seats. Just to show you the KHL´s massive progress – the KHL had 11 venues (of 24) under 6 000 seats and only 3 venues with 10 000+ seats in their first season (2008-09).

Just reminding that 6 000 seats venue is a norm in other European leagues.

German DEL is now on par with the KHL but Germans having a big issue with smaller venues. Yes, they have four big venues (soon five), but too many venues is under 6 000 seats.

The Swedish SHL (Elitserien) has decreased from the best attended league to 4th. And there is no indication the SHL should come to their earlier positions. Simply, they do not have good enough venues. Definitely, I do not see a scenario when the SHL clubs would build from five to six new venues over 10 000 seats in upcoming five years.

The Czech league (TELH) is plus-minus the same, they lack the modern venues as well.

The Liiga is the biggest dissapointment, their downfall is significant. But two modern venues on the rise if I know.

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[mouser]

Some of my questions would be:

How much are these leagues competing against each other for Players or Customers?
- i.e. does it really matter to league A if league B average attendance changes?

How many teams attendance are being held back by arena size?

How much will increasing arena size improve revenue?
- e.g. if a team in a 6k arena is already selling the worst seats at low prices how much will they sell the “new” 4k seats for in the 10k arena?


My focus here is primarily on how much any individual European team would benefit by moving from a 6k arena to a 10k arena? I suspect the improvement could vary wildly by team. At the same time recognizing a new arena is almost always better then an old arena.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Some of my questions would be:

How much are these leagues competing against each other for Players or Customers?
- i.e. does it really matter to league A if league B average attendance changes?

How many teams attendance are being held back by arena size?

How much will increasing arena size improve revenue?
- e.g. if a team in a 6k arena is already selling the worst seats at low prices how much will they sell the “new” 4k seats for in the 10k arena?


My focus here is primarily on how much any individual European team would benefit by moving from a 6k arena to a 10k arena? I suspect the improvement could vary wildly by team. At the same time recognizing a new arena is almost always better then an old arena.

I can only say for sure for the KHL. The league is noway close to any profitability. When SKA gets its 22k arena, it will probably become profitable, but I'm not sure even about this, because the team has so many different projects (VHL team, two MHL teams, two hockey schools, Hockey City facility, probably more). So getting from 6k to 10k will make a KHL team losing a little bit less money, but that's it.

 

[vorky]

Thank you @mouser for interesting questions.

First of all, I follow the development of the leagues, especially the KHL. As we know, nowadays fans do not want to attend the old cold & unconfortable venues, they want to enjoy the games at modern venues. The greatest example are all Moscow KHL clubs - CSKA, Dynamo & Spartak. All started their KHL times at old Soviet venues, with very small attendance. When they built the new venues, more fans attend their games. Of course, ticket & match-day revenues are growing as well.

One moment is often forgotten. Quality of broadcasting etc. Modern & big venues are more suitable for broadcasting than old & outdated venues. All in all, with modern venues you can bring the better feelings for fans in arena as well as in front of TV. I will give you an example from the Czech broadcaster. That best Czech hockey journalist was asked why so many Czech venues (TELH) has so significant problem with lightning in TV broadcast. He replied that the arenas are too old & the investment into lightning would be costly & impossible in some cases. So, he as a broadcaster needs to show a lower quality product.

Yes, many clubs attendance are being held back by arena size. That is one of problems, there is simply no room for development.

Regarding the salaries payroll. It is complicated to compare because they are not disclosed. As I know, the biggest total budget in TELH is around 5-6 million euro, so much less for players salaries payroll. Perhaps Liiga has salaries payroll around 3 million euro for biggest teams. If I remember correctly the SHL biggest payroll should be around 5-6 million euro but taxes are high. I can not say for DEL & NL. As for KHL, the salary floor will be soon at 6-7 million euro and the ceiling could be around 15 million euro, with exemptions from cap around 20 million euro.

 

[Rigafan]

Some countries must be limit by their population too? Say Finland, Czech and Sweden from your example leagues @vorky . If they were to go and build some mega arena like the KHL is doing, do the cities and towns these teams reside in even have the population to support it? Sure they are 'hockey countries' for the most part but not everyone will want to go and watch a hockey game live, especially when the TV quality gets better and cheaper. So I don't see 5-6,000 as an issue for any European league that isn't Russia/Germany.

 

[vorky]

Some countries must be limit by their population too? Say Finland, Czech and Sweden from your example leagues @vorky . If they were to go and build some mega arena like the KHL is doing, do the cities and towns these teams reside in even have the population to support it? Sure they are 'hockey countries' for the most part but not everyone will want to go and watch a hockey game live, especially when the TV quality gets better and cheaper. So I don't see 5-6,000 as an issue for any European league that isn't Russia/Germany.

Good point & I could agree.

It is always about a route the league chooses. I just summarise the average attendance for the last decade. From that perspective the KHL is massively developing while the rest of Europe is staying at the same place. And I do not say the staying is apriory bad. I described the KHL because I am following the league while I can not comment on other leagues.

I admit the KHL has a big advantage, their clubs are located in relatively big cities. It is about a route, they want to be in big cities with bigger venues while Swedes want to go to smaller towns. I would like to see more over 10 000 seats venues in DEL.

From long-term perspective, the IIHF is moving to the smaller ice surface. I am sure there will be the pressure on European leagues to switch the ice. I can see the clubs with smaller & older venues will have a serious problem to adapt. Some older venues are not even able to switch. While the KHL predicted this development with a condition that all newly building venues, so the majority, need to be projected with all three ice surfaces (NHL, Finnish, Olympic), so they can switch the ice within a few hours. But it is nothing extraordinary with modern venues. And the KHL clubs having older venues are forced to invest into the ice surface as well, so easily switching the ice. As we know, the IIHF Worlds will demand over 10 000 seats as well. For example, if Slovakia wants to host the IIHF Worlds in the future, we need to build a new bigger venue, Slovan´s arena with capacity of 10 000 seats is too small as main arena. So, we need to share the event with Budapest, Wien or Prague or to build a new arena.

 

[Albatros]

Much larger arenas would do more harm than good in most DEL towns, game day atmosphere has been one of their strengths and empty seats wouldn't help that.

 

[OskarOskarius]

I made a research on the leading European hockey leagues average attendance of the regular season since 2008-09.

I am interested in serious discussion & analysis. I do not comment on the leagues why they are performing like they are. We can discuss. You can comment on this issue if you are following the leagues. Again, the serious analysis is welcomed.

The Swiss´ National League keeps being the most attended league in Europe. The KHL has the best chances to overtake the Swiss soon because the KHL is going to have the best & biggest arenas (on average) in all Europe. Soon the KHL will have at least 12 venues over 10-12 000 seats, including the biggest hockey venue in the world (SKA Arena), and only 4 venues (of 24) under 6 000 seats. Just to show you the KHL´s massive progress – the KHL had 11 venues (of 24) under 6 000 seats and only 3 venues with 10 000+ seats in their first season (2008-09).

Just reminding that 6 000 seats venue is a norm in other European leagues.

German DEL is now on par with the KHL but Germans having a big issue with smaller venues. Yes, they have four big venues (soon five), but too many venues is under 6 000 seats.

The Swedish SHL (Elitserien) has decreased from the best attended league to 4th. And there is no indication the SHL should come to their earlier positions. Simply, they do not have good enough venues. Definitely, I do not see a scenario when the SHL clubs would build from five to six new venues over 10 000 seats in upcoming five years.

The Czech league (TELH) is plus-minus the same, they lack the modern venues as well.

The Liiga is the biggest dissapointment, their downfall is significant. But two modern venues on the rise if I know.

If you look at SHL 2011 season you can probably explain the high attendance with three Stockholm teams (AIK, Djurgården and Södertälje) being in SHL at the same time. This can obviously happen again.

 

[vorky]

If you look at SHL 2011 season you can probably explain the high attendance with three Stockholm teams (AIK, Djurgården and Södertälje) being in SHL at the same time. This can obviously happen again.

I could definitelly agree with you that having teams with bigger venues like AIK or perhaps Södertälje could help the SHL average attendance. I prefer discussing the real posibilities over unrealistic scenarios. So, how is it possible that all three would play the SHL at the same time? And at the same time you need to guarantee that SHL clubs with smallest venue, per wiki IK Oskarshamn- Rögle BK- Örebro HK or Växjö Lakers with Skellefteå AIK are relegated.

 

[OskarOskarius]

I could definitelly agree with you that having teams with bigger venues like AIK or perhaps Södertälje could help the SHL average attendance. I prefer discussing the real posibilities over unrealistic scenarios. So, how is it possible that all three would play the SHL at the same time? And at the same time you need to guarantee that SHL clubs with smallest venue, per wiki IK Oskarshamn- Rögle BK- Örebro HK or Växjö Lakers with Skellefteå AIK are relegated.

My point was that attendance stats is a bit tricky. The SHL would have a lot higher attendance stats if eg AIK and Hammarby played in SHL. Now they don’t because they aren’t good enough, and that’s how it should be.

 

[vorky]

My point was that attendance stats is a bit tricky. The SHL would have a lot higher attendance stats if eg AIK and Hammarby played in SHL. Now they don’t because they aren’t good enough, and that’s how it should be.

Attendance figures are an objective measure showing us how many fans are attending the league´s games.

With AIK & Hammarby you are talking about unrealistic scenarios.

 

[OskarOskarius]

Attendance figures are an objective measure showing us how many fans are attending the league´s games.

With AIK & Hammarby you are talking about unrealistic scenarios.

Don’t think so.

 

[Albatros]

Likely some or all of those teams would continue to use Hovet even if they'd play in the SHL, maybe biggest games at the Avicii Arena.

 

[kaiser matias]

@vorky, not sure if you know this (or if it's even available), but with the KHL opening these new arenas, have ticket prices changed much to reflect that? Either going up or down? I realize the KHL isn't as focused about attendance as other leagues, but with this drive to build arenas, have they been seeing a rise in revenue that way?

 

[vorky]

@vorky, not sure if you know this (or if it's even available), but with the KHL opening these new arenas, have ticket prices changed much to reflect that? Either going up or down? I realize the KHL isn't as focused about attendance as other leagues, but with this drive to build arenas, have they been seeing a rise in revenue that way?

Of course, I do not have the exact data, they are not available.

What is behind this drive to build arenas? Definitelly, business. They know that with larger arenas, they will attract more fans, so match-day revenues go up even if your ticket prices stay the same. If SKA keeps the prices at the same level, they have now 10 000+ fans on average & will have 20 000 fans with new venue. So, match-day revenues will go up. Their aim is to have 25% of all revenues to be from so-called commercial revenues (tickets, match-day, commercial sponsors). The KHL does not publish the exact numbers, just saying that the commercial revenues are growing.

It is more complicated to compare the ticket prices (season-ticket) from different seasons, I will give you just basic numbers, for more details you need to study the links below.

Spartak in 2013/14 in old stadium - Sokolniki (capacity around 5k). The prices are only for regular season, the playoffs tickets are not including, you need to pay them extra before playoffs (with some discount). The most expensive season-ticket cost 20 000, cheapest 7 500 (not counting fans sector who has always a big discount). Now, 2021-22 regular-season at Megasport Arena (over 10 000). The most expensive 41 000, cheapest around 5 000. So, you can see the season tickets for regular-season go up, but nothing significant.

Dynamo Moscow in 2014-15 at old Luzniki (8 000). The season ticket from 3 500 to 19 900. In 2017-18 they played at VTB Ledovy Dvorets/Park Legend/now CSKA Arena, with capacity 12 000 - season ticket from 5000/7500 to 25 000. In 2019-2020 they played at their current VTB Arena (10500), season-ticket from 7400 to 27000 for season-ticket holders from previous season so with discount, and 11 000 to 42 000 for new customers/fans. Again, you can see some minor increase.

And I could go on with other clubs.

Once again, it is more complicated with tickets, more categories, some new categories, many discounts, so it is complicated to compare. But, general rule is - the price go up, but not significantly. On the other hand, you have bigger venue, so more fans.

 

[kaiser matias]

Of course, I do not have the exact data, they are not available.

What is behind this drive to build arenas? Definitelly, business. They know that with larger arenas, they will attract more fans, so match-day revenues go up even if your ticket prices stay the same. If SKA keeps the prices at the same level, they have now 10 000+ fans on average & will have 20 000 fans with new venue. So, match-day revenues will go up. Their aim is to have 25% of all revenues to be from so-called commercial revenues (tickets, match-day, commercial sponsors). The KHL does not publish the exact numbers, just saying that the commercial revenues are growing.

It is more complicated to compare the ticket prices (season-ticket) from different seasons, I will give you just basic numbers, for more details you need to study the links below.

Spartak in 2013/14 in old stadium - Sokolniki (capacity around 5k). The prices are only for regular season, the playoffs tickets are not including, you need to pay them extra before playoffs (with some discount). The most expensive season-ticket cost 20 000, cheapest 7 500 (not counting fans sector who has always a big discount). Now, 2021-22 regular-season at Megasport Arena (over 10 000). The most expensive 41 000, cheapest around 5 000. So, you can see the season tickets for regular-season go up, but nothing significant.

Dynamo Moscow in 2014-15 at old Luzniki (8 000). The season ticket from 3 500 to 19 900. In 2017-18 they played at VTB Ledovy Dvorets/Park Legend/now CSKA Arena, with capacity 12 000 - season ticket from 5000/7500 to 25 000. In 2019-2020 they played at their current VTB Arena (10500), season-ticket from 7400 to 27000 for season-ticket holders from previous season so with discount, and 11 000 to 42 000 for new customers/fans. Again, you can see some minor increase.

And I could go on with other clubs.

Once again, it is more complicated with tickets, more categories, some new categories, many discounts, so it is complicated to compare. But, general rule is - the price go up, but not significantly. On the other hand, you have bigger venue, so more fans.

Thanks for the info. I didn't think you had the specifics, but figured if someone did it would be you.

Hopefully these numbers keep moving upwards, would be good for the sport as a whole, and definitely good for Russian hockey.

 

[golfortennis]

Are the European hockey teams as influenced by market size, etc, like NHL teams? Or does a city like Berlin have multiple teams and so they really don't have massive revenue discrepancies?

Is European hockey similar to soccer(football) where you can just start a club, and work up through the leagues, or is it more like the NHL where you need to buy an expansion team or an existing team?

 

[Edenjung]

Are the European hockey teams as influenced by market size, etc, like NHL teams? Or does a city like Berlin have multiple teams and so they really don't have massive revenue discrepancies?

Is European hockey similar to soccer(football) where you can just start a club, and work up through the leagues, or is it more like the NHL where you need to buy an expansion team or an existing team?

Berlin as an example has one club. The Icebears.

that goes for all other clubs too. And as you see they are not franchises. They are clubs but in most cases the team basically the whole professional operation) is seperated into a GmBh.
In the case of Berlin its exactly like this and they are owned by the same guys that own the Kings (Anschutz Entertainment Group).

Most of the teams were founding teams of the DEL and some of them moved up thorugh the lower leagues. Since 2016 we did not have any promotion and demotion, but for the new season we get it back again.

I don't know how it works for other leagues though.

 

[BlizzardSloth]

Is European hockey similar to soccer(football) where you can just start a club, and work up through the leagues, or is it more like the NHL where you need to buy an expansion team or an existing team?

It works like this in Switzerland and most of Europe. The teams are clubs, sometimes active in multiple sports, most of them founded in the early 20th century. The franchise system for sport is barely known in Europe and would lack support, at least in Switzerland.

Are the European hockey teams as influenced by market size, etc, like NHL teams? Or does a city like Berlin have multiple teams and so they really don't have massive revenue discrepancies?

I doubt that market size is as important as in NA. The Greater Zurich Area (~ 1.6 Mio) supports 4 professional teams (ZSC, Zug & Rapperswil in NLA, Kloten in NLB) and the Region around Bern (~ 700'000) supports 4 teams in NLA (Bern, Fribourg, Biel, Langnau). Having other teams in the same region is probably even better for game day attendance due to rivalries (not only in sports but also historical) that have grown over centuries and therefore sharing a market isn't necessarily bad for the teams here. Especially since away fans are a big part of hockey in Europe.

But there is for sure a problem concerning market size when it comes to TV rights. Since countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, and the Czech Republic are fairly small, the market for TV rights has its limits. There could be potential in a big country like Germany, but in Germany hockey plays second fiddle to soccer.

 

[Rigafan]

Are the European hockey teams as influenced by market size, etc, like NHL teams? Or does a city like Berlin have multiple teams and so they really don't have massive revenue discrepancies?

Is European hockey similar to soccer(football) where you can just start a club, and work up through the leagues, or is it more like the NHL where you need to buy an expansion team or an existing team?

In the UK hockey system you have the top teams in the 'Elite League' which is not a franchise but you have to buy a license to compete in this league (I think a few other Euro leagues do this, namely the German leagues) and that costs whatever the Elite League think it is worth.

Below that you have a number of other leagues which, as you said, you can start a team in your town, put them in the bottom league and work you way up a few steps, but you cannot enter the Elite without the license and backing from the other teams.

 

[golfortennis]

In the UK hockey system you have the top teams in the 'Elite League' which is not a franchise but you have to buy a license to compete in this league (I think a few other Euro leagues do this, namely the German leagues) and that costs whatever the Elite League think it is worth.

Below that you have a number of other leagues which, as you said, you can start a team in your town, put them in the bottom league and work you way up a few steps, but you cannot enter the Elite without the license and backing from the other teams.

Now that is interesting. Any idea why the license thing is there? Is it basically a money grab?

When we were waiting for a train north from Edinburgh, the fellow working the station told us he was a big hockey fan, and pointed out the arena that was in view of the station. Do the Scottish clubs play in the same league?

 

[golfortennis]

Berlin as an example has one club. The Icebears.

that goes for all other clubs too. And as you see they are not franchises. They are clubs but in most cases the team basically the whole professional operation) is seperated into a GmBh.
In the case of Berlin its exactly like this and they are owned by the same guys that own the Kings (Anschutz Entertainment Group).

Most of the teams were founding teams of the DEL and some of them moved up thorugh the lower leagues. Since 2016 we did not have any promotion and demotion, but for the new season we get it back again.

I don't know how it works for other leagues though.

Why did they not have any promotion/relegation for those seasons?

Thanks for the info as well.

 

[golfortennis]

It works like this in Switzerland and most of Europe. The teams are clubs, sometimes active in multiple sports, most of them founded in the early 20th century. The franchise system for sport is barely known in Europe and would lack support, at least in Switzerland.



I doubt that market size is as important as in NA. The Greater Zurich Area (~ 1.6 Mio) supports 4 professional teams (ZSC, Zug & Rapperswil in NLA, Kloten in NLB) and the Region around Bern (~ 700'000) supports 4 teams in NLA (Bern, Fribourg, Biel, Langnau). Having other teams in the same region is probably even better for game day attendance due to rivalries (not only in sports but also historical) that have grown over centuries and therefore sharing a market isn't necessarily bad for the teams here. Especially since away fans are a big part of hockey in Europe.

But there is for sure a problem concerning market size when it comes to TV rights. Since countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, and the Czech Republic are fairly small, the market for TV rights has its limits. There could be potential in a big country like Germany, but in Germany hockey plays second fiddle to soccer.

Do the TV ratings get real big for hockey games in some of those leagues?

I'm sensing that, while acknowledging money is always a factor, it doesn't seem to be quite the same factor as in other sports.

 

[Edenjung]

Why did they not have any promotion/relegation for those seasons?

Thanks for the info as well.

I don't know why.

Do the TV ratings get real big for hockey games in some of those leagues?

I'm sensing that, while acknowledging money is always a factor, it doesn't seem to be quite the same factor as in other sports.

The tv rights are owned by one company. Its not like in america were you only can see your home team on TV.
You can see them all.

Also the money from the tv rights is not that much. So most Teams depend on ticket sales.

About the ratings. I don't have numbers. Buts nowhere near football.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Now that is interesting. Any idea why the license thing is there? Is it basically a money grab?

Definitely not a total money grab. It is more of a way to vet the organization's finances. The EIHL has lost a lot of teams. Hull Stingrays, MK Lightning, Newcastle Vipers, etc. DEL has lost a few as well: Hamburg Freezers, Frankfurt Lions, Kassel Huskies, Hannover Indians.

Requiring the license payment is a fairly good guarantee the team has the financial backing to be successful. Teams in EIHL and DEL are run as a business and need end up in the black. This isn't the KHL where there is a state-operated company providing millions of down a blackhole of a team's financial ledger.