ESPN: Rebuild? Red Wings just keep winning

[Claypool]

A rebuild? No thanks. That's not something Holland is interested in undertaking.

"There are no guarantees with rebuilds," Holland said after the Red Wings practiced on Wednesday. "There are no guarantees you're going to come out the other side and you're going to be elite."

...

"There's now a lottery. The first four picks are lottery picks. You can be the worst team in the league and get the fifth pick in the draft," Holland said. "Each year, we go forward, it becomes more and more a parity league. Why is that? Players come out of the entry level and they go from entry-level contracts to $5-$6 million."

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...x-youth-experience-continue-winning-tradition

Click to read more...

 

[14ari13]

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...x-youth-experience-continue-winning-tradition

This is true. I remember when Crosby and malkin signed their deals I thought to myself, this is impossible. And that is what happened. Young players sign big deals very early.
I remember when Martin Lapoint signed the deal. He was like 1,2 mill or something like that. The wings were willing to give him 3M at the time, then he signed with the bruins for 5M.

 

[Flowah]

Why does he talk about guarantees? There's no guarantees to anything. It's just about playing the odds.

 

[Yemack]

Why does he talk about guarantees? There's no guarantees to anything. It's just about playing the odds.

I think he's talking about the odds being so much lower now. Not only you have to be exceptionally bad in right year, you also have to be lucky to get that generational talent.

I dunno about this new rule. I thought tanking was part of the strategy that brought certain excitement to this league. I like the intention for this rule but I think this rule needs some refinement. I think this just made a really bad loser that much harder to get back up. Still, NHL draft is pretty rigged at times so I'm sure the league will help out those that are really in need, which is not us.

 

[obey86]

I think he's talking about the odds being so much lower now. Not only you have to be exceptionally bad in right year, you also have to be lucky to get that generational talent.

I dunno about this new rule. I thought tanking was part of the strategy that brought certain excitement to this league. I like the intention for this rule but I think this rule needs some refinement. I think this just made a really bad loser that much harder to get back up. Still, NHL draft is pretty rigged at times so I'm sure the league will help out those that are really in need, which is not us.

how does it make things exciting when teams are purpose trying to lose? i'd father watch competitive hockey.

 

[Frk It]

He makes some reasonable points, but I hope he doesn't have a big head because of this hot start.

 

[KasperTheGrittyGhost]

how does it make things exciting when teams are purpose trying to lose? i'd father watch competitive hockey.

If teams are that bad, doesn't that mean they aren't competitive to begin with?

 

[obey86]

If teams are that bad, doesn't that mean they aren't competitive to begin with?

Sure, maybe they aren't competitive as in going to compete for the stanley cup.....but there's a difference between purposely losing and being a bubble team when it comes to how competitive one is.

Regardless, I don't see how as a Red Wings fan, it's exciting for me to see the Sabres purposely losing games. how is that exciting?

 

[Dotter]

I think he's talking about the odds being so much lower now. Not only you have to be exceptionally bad in right year, you also have to be lucky to get that generational talent.

I dunno about this new rule. I thought tanking was part of the strategy that brought certain excitement to this league. I like the intention for this rule but I think this rule needs some refinement. I think this just made a really bad loser that much harder to get back up. Still, NHL draft is pretty rigged at times so I'm sure the league will help out those that are really in need, which is not us.

I always thought the strategy for Bettman's parity was to make no real favorites. The 16th team could just as easily beat the 1st place team in a best of 7. And the 30th place team only missed the playoffs by 1 point and less goals scored down to the wire. Almost to the point where the president trophy winning team had to back backed into the playoffs.

That's the parity i thought they were going for.

And honestly, not directed to you, I love the way Ken Holland has run this club recently. Did he miss a few things in hindsight? Yes, all GMs have missed in hindsight. ALL OF THEM!

 

[DanZ]

He makes some reasonable points, but I hope he doesn't have a big head because of this hot start.

He's been saying the same thing for awhile.. before the season even started.

 

[Frk It]

He's been saying the same thing for awhile.. before the season even started.

Since the thread popped up today, thought this article just came out like today. Didn't realize it was from about 2 weeks ago.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

I always thought the strategy for Bettman's parity was to make no real favorites. The 16th team could just as easily beat the 1st place team in a best of 7. And the 30th place team only missed the playoffs by 1 point and less goals scored down to the wire. Almost to the point where the president trophy winning team had to back backed into the playoffs.

That's the parity i thought they were going for.

And honestly, not directed to you, I love the way Ken Holland has run this club recently. Did he miss a few things in hindsight? Yes, all GMs have missed in hindsight. ALL OF THEM!

Naw, I don't think that was ever their goal, let alone possible to achieve without radical changes to how they do things at the moment.

 

[Claypool]

Since the thread popped up today, thought this article just came out like today. Didn't realize it was from about 2 weeks ago.

it's from last night. The date on the article is wrong.

 

[HockeyinHD]

how does it make things exciting when teams are purpose trying to lose? i'd father watch competitive hockey.

Careful. That kind of sentiment is an excommunicatable offense.

Obviously being moderately competitive is more enjoyable than being objectively awful. We know this to be true because the former makes money, and what people pay for defines what is more desirable.

There's no real, definable rationale for a full rebuild. The only vaguely logical progression is that the only real way to get 'back to a cup-competitive level' is to go full rebuild.

That's it.

There's not a lot to suggest that supposition is even slightly accurate. There are a couple teams who have rebuilt in that manner and succeeded, and a bunch of other teams who have, and have not. There are a bunch of 'but it's more fun to root or an up and comer' arguments, but those are emotional and not rational.

 

[Yemack]

how does it make things exciting when teams are purpose trying to lose? i'd father watch competitive hockey.

I'm not talking about our situation or anyone specific. I just think that some teams who had to endure pains for a long long time, their fans can at least rationalize current losing streak as a painful process to get better. Hence the excitement I was talking about.

I'm sure the league probably have looked at ticket revenue and determined active tanking doesn't help the league and wants to bring some competitiveness to bottom dwellers. Also it is too early to say how this new draft rules will affect this league. It is just my personal opinion that the league kinda overreacted after the whole Oilers debacle of them wasting 1s overall talents prior to the rule change. They are going to fix the draft one way or the other anyways. Why make a rule change that worked extremely well for many many years for many other sports? We will see.

 

[Frk It]

The way they changed the lottery really does make tanking less attractive/viable. He's not wrong. The guarantee of only dropping 1 spot was nice, not a fan or changing that even if I understand why it was done.

 

[Henkka]

The way they changed the lottery really does make tanking less attractive/viable. He's not wrong. The guarantee of only dropping 1 spot was nice, not a fan or changing that even if I understand why it was done.

Biggest difference in future will be:

A) LUCK. Draft lottery TOP3 picks.

B) How will you draft from 4th to ~15th overall, outside of Generational talents.

C) Prospect development with all picks.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

But on the other hand, it being a parity league means it's more difficult for anybody to be elite at all. Sure, maybe tanking isn't a 100% chance at being elite anymore, but wouldn't you take a 50% chance over the 10% chance you have if you keep signing UFAs and chugging along with mid round picks?

Sounds like he's making perfect the enemy of good. Tanking gives you more and better opportunities to draft good players than any other method we've got.

 

[HockeyinHD]

But on the other hand, it being a parity league means it's more difficult for anybody to be elite at all. Sure, maybe tanking isn't a 100% chance at being elite anymore, but wouldn't you take a 50% chance over the 10% chance you have if you keep signing UFAs and chugging along with mid round picks?

Are you suggesting 50% of the teams who have tanked have subsequently become elite?

Sounds like he's making perfect the enemy of good. Tanking gives you more and better opportunities to draft good players than any other method we've got.

Also, tanking requires you to remove more good players than any other method we've got.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Are you suggesting 50% of the teams who have tanked have subsequently become elite?

that seems about right, on a quick look.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Seems like Holland is content to try and get water from a stone for the last couple years of his contract. Assuming he moves on, he's leaving quite a task for whoever's next.

 

[Winger98]

I'm not talking about our situation or anyone specific. I just think that some teams who had to endure pains for a long long time, their fans can at least rationalize current losing streak as a painful process to get better. Hence the excitement I was talking about.

I'm sure the league probably have looked at ticket revenue and determined active tanking doesn't help the league and wants to bring some competitiveness to bottom dwellers. Also it is too early to say how this new draft rules will affect this league. It is just my personal opinion that the league kinda overreacted after the whole Oilers debacle of them wasting 1s overall talents prior to the rule change. They are going to fix the draft one way or the other anyways. Why make a rule change that worked extremely well for many many years for many other sports? We will see.

Did they waste them or were those drafts just not great drafts to build a team with? I think the draft was always a crapshoot, and aside from the years when guys like Mario, Lindros, etc. were hitting the draft boards, tanking to get a high pick was a risky proposition. You increase your likelihood of getting a good player, but the sort of cornerstone players that Chicago, Pittsburgh, etc. built around? Those are rare regardless.

I still think that if you're not drafting high that a team should try to make up for it through quantity, and I think that's where Holland's slipped up. But, whatever. We've all been down this argument a few dozen times.

 

[smurfyeah19]

The NHL and NFL are very similar in that they're hard cap leagues with a ton of parity. It's what absolutely is killing the NBA and MLB right now, some of these individual markets could simply not care less as they know essentially who will be in the finals. Right now honestly hockey is as popular as it has ever been

 

[cnwinger]

yeah, about that...

 

[Invictus12]

If hypothetically, we are out of playoffs completely or staring at a very long shot by the trade deadline, then I say be opportunistic and start flipping vets for high end prospects from teams that are looking to make the push. I'm talking something like Green who pretty much will improve any team he'll go to for some young defenceman who is close to making a jump but yet to be an effective difference for a team aspiring to win the cup now.

Otherwise, keep developing keep hacking at it.