News Article: ESPN: Front office spending/competitive advantages across the league

[Frk It]

I thought this was an interesting article ESPN put out today. It talks about how there is no salary cap or regulations on how teams go about staffing their front office, and how teams approach it in a variety of ways. Touches on different approaches with scouting, analytics, player development, compensation, etc.

Lists us as 1 of the 4 teams with a bigger scouting presence in Europe, no shocker there.

There's no salary cap on hockey operations: Inside the NHL's secret race for competitive advantage

Which teams have the biggest analytics departments? How do scouting staffs vary? We look at how NHL teams spend outside of salaries and how it could create a competitive divide.

www.espn.com

Click to read more...

 

[Ricelund]

Here's a working link: There's no salary cap on hockey operations: Inside the NHL's secret race for competitive advantage

 

[Frk It]

From an organizational management/structure perspective I find this stuff very interesting, and interesting that different teams have different takes on how to approach.

How many analytics people should a team have? What areas should each specialize in?

How many amateur scouts should a team have? How many per region? Which regions?

I think these are very important questions that teams are still figuring out how to answer.

 

[Gniwder]

From an organizational management/structure perspective I find this stuff very interesting, and interesting that different teams have different takes on how to approach.

How many analytics people should a team have? What areas should each specialize in?

How many amateur scouts should a team have? How many per region? Which regions?

I think these are very important questions that teams are still figuring out how to answer.

Right now I'd like to see the team hire some skills coaches or consultants that are willing to split time between Det and GR. A college goalie isn't going to be able to coach skating, edge work, leveraging, stick handling or shooting. We already saw that with Blash, and Lalonde is another college goalie.

 

[Bench]

A college goalie isn't going to be able to coach skating, edge work, leveraging, stick handling or shooting. We already saw that with Blash, and Lalonde is another college goalie.

I mean, also, that's not really what an NHL head coach does anyway.

 

[Gniwder]

I mean, also, that's not really what an NHL head coach does anyway.

That's always been the excuse, but when you promote younger prospects it's what's needed. Hence the need to hire skills coaches.

You certainly can't expect Zadina to fix his slapper on his own, if he was capable of that he'd be filling nets by now.

 

[Perfect Human]

I fully support non-standard pay structures for front offices across the league. It helps to emphasize culture across different markets.

Detroit has an avid fan base. There is a great opportunity if more front office investment is made on a return in better players on the team which translates to wins and then in turn more tickets sold. Homegrown talent is key to managing the Detroit market.

Arizona doesn't have an avid fan base and if they had a fully stocked front office like Detroit, it wouldn't matter to their fan base. They are not as into hockey across leagues as other teams fans are. It benefits them more to land a superstar than have homegrown talent.

I thought this was a good article too. I honestly thought there were more European scouts than what I know believe.

 

[Bench]

That's always been the excuse, but when you promote younger prospects it's what's needed. Hence the need to hire skills coaches.

I just don't understand why you think they aren't working on any of the skills you listed. Or that Yzerman doesn't have any clue how to assemble a development program.

 

[Frk It]

Right now I'd like to see the team hire some skills coaches or consultants that are willing to split time between Det and GR. A college goalie isn't going to be able to coach skating, edge work, leveraging, stick handling or shooting. We already saw that with Blash, and Lalonde is another college goalie.

I would be curious to know who/what the skill coaches we use are. I know Yzerman utilized a skating coach when was in Tampa that he got good results from.

Here is one guy we hired as a skills coach/consultant: Wings Make Additions To Hockey Ops Staff

 

[Henkka]

What I think we have:

- Great facilities, thanks to new LCA. Rasmussen said that he likes to hang out summers at Detroit (rather than at home) because of those things.
- Great scouting staff. Felt like Yzerman doubled all guys, when he took the charge. More eyes = better.
- Probably best European scouting department
- Smartest GM to find out best outside developing programs, like Frölunda and Rögle and use them regularily.

 

[Gniwder]

I just don't understand why you think they aren't working on any of the skills you listed. Or that Yzerman doesn't have any clue how to assemble a development program.

Well if they were working on it I would actually expect some results.

They obviously aren't spending enough money and time at it because I've seen more improvements out of weekend ski instructors that take one hour clinics every other week. Different sport and much lower level, but still.....

You have to question something when you see zero improvement over a 3 year span.

Also, as far as Yzerman is concerned, it may have been a budgetary issue during COVID. Now that Chris is making money, he might be able to expand his staff.

 

[Bench]

Well if they were working on it I would actually expect some results.

They obviously aren't spending enough money and time at it because I've seen more improvements out of weekend ski instructors that take one hour clinics every other week. Different sport and much lower level, but still.....

You have to question something when you see zero improvement over a 3 year span.

OK. And you're noticing other teams are making said improvements that meet your standards?

I'd be curious to hear more about that.

 

[Frk It]

Well if they were working on it I would actually expect some results.

They obviously aren't spending enough money and time at it because I've seen more improvements out of weekend ski instructors that take one hour clinics every other week. Different sport and much lower level, but still.....

You have to question something when you see zero improvement over a 3 year span.

Also, as far as Yzerman is concerned, it may have been a budgetary issue during COVID. Now that Chris is making money, he might be able to expand his staff.

I would guess that the guys running our player development would know guys to refer players to work with during the summer, that specialize in different areas. Most of skill development should happen prior to making the NHL.

Also not all players have the same capacity to improve, even if they work their asses off on something. I remember seeing XO constantly working on drills to improve skating in the off-season, but he was never really ever to make great strides with it. Sometimes it's just a limitation with the player, not an issue with the development. It just depends.

 

[Gniwder]

OK. And you're noticing other teams are making said improvements that meet your standards?

I'd be curious to hear more about that.

Take a look at Tom Wilson, the only thing he could do when he entered the league as an 18 year old was take a run at other players. He can actually stick handle and shoot now.

This notion that prospects need to be fully developed before entering the league is nonsense. However, the team needs to have staff or at least consultants on hand to develop those prospects.

Maybe the Wings already have those people in which case they need to be replaced because the progress of recent prospects leave a lot to be desired.

Also not all players have the same capacity to improve, even if they work their asses off on something. I remember seeing XO constantly working on drills to improve skating in the off-season, but he was never really ever to make great strides with it. Sometimes it's just a limitation with the player, not an issue with the development. It just depends.

If that was the case Stevie wouldn't have signed Zadina to his most recent contract.

(But yes, certain players are limited, especially in terms of skating speed. People have physical limits.)



My entire point is....
- Zadina's go to move in 2018: Head fake, cut to the middle, get puck stripped by the second defenseman
- Zadina's go to move in 2022: Head fake, cut to the middle, get puck stripped by the second defenseman


Hmmmmm.......

 

[norrisnick]

Take a look at Tom Wilson, the only thing he could do when he entered the league as an 18 year old was take a run at other players. He can actually stick handle and shoot now.

This notion that prospects need to be fully developed before entering the league is nonsense. However, the team needs to have staff or at least consultants on hand to develop those prospects.

Maybe the Wings already have those people in which case they need to be replaced because the progress of recent prospects leave a lot to be desired.


If that was the case Stevie wouldn't have signed Zadina to his most recent contract.

(But yes, certain players are limited, especially in terms of skating speed. People have physical limits.)



My entire point is....
- Zadina's go to move in 2018: Head fake, cut to the middle, get puck stripped by the second defenseman
- Zadina's go to move in 2022: Head fake, cut to the middle, get puck stripped by the second defenseman


Hmmmmm.......

You mean the bottom 6 warm body contract? Zadina shows absolutely zero improvement from last year, and he's still just fairly paid.

 

[Bench]

Take a look at Tom Wilson, the only thing he could do when he entered the league as an 18 year old was take a run at other players. He can actually stick handle and shoot now.

Tom Wilson was drafted 16th overall. He was always considered very talented with upside. You're acting like he was an undrafted UFA they brought in and reformed into a first round talent. He could always handle the puck and shoot and showed that in the OHL playoffs before he was drafted.

Yzerman's first draft pick with the Wings, literally his first pick, just won a Calder. But please, let us know how disappointed you are in their prospect development because over a decade ago the Capitals hit on a 1st rounder.

 

[Gniwder]

Tom Wilson was drafted 16th overall. He was always considered very talented with upside. You're acting like he was an undrafted UFA they brought in and reformed into a first round talent. He could always handle the puck and shoot and showed that in the OHL playoffs before he was drafted.

Yzerman's first draft pick with the Wings, literally his first pick, just won a Calder. But please, let us know how disappointed you are in their prospect development because over a decade ago the Capitals hit on a 1st rounder.

You obviously didn't watch him his rookie year or even his first 3 seasons. He had absolutely no puck skills, looked like an AHL level enforcer at best but with NHL skating abilities.

Seider developed in GR and SHL, not with the Wings team, whereas Wilson never played in lower leagues. That's why I used him as an example, because he was by far the player with most improvement while on an NHL team.

Several players have also had breakout years on NHL teams recently (Troy Terry, Tage Thompson, etc), but small sample size and they played in the minors so I went with WIlson.

 

[Gniwder]

You mean the bottom 6 warm body contract? Zadina shows absolutely zero improvement from last year, and he's still just fairly paid.

This season he makes less than a mil but the 3rd season pays $2.7M. He needs to be better than a warm body by then.

Besides, if Zadina doesn't improve he has no place on a playoff roster. Not physical enough and too dumb to figure out that you don't try to step into Makar/McAvoy/etc.

 

[Frk It]

I guess my wuq

You obviously didn't watch him his rookie year or even his first 3 seasons. He had absolutely no puck skills, looked like an AHL level enforcer at best but with NHL skating abilities.

Seider developed in GR and SHL, not with the Wings team, whereas Wilson never played in lower leagues. That's why I used him as an example, because he was by far the player with most improvement while on an NHL team.

Several players have also had breakout years on NHL teams recently (Troy Terry, Tage Thompson, etc), but small sample size and they played in the minors so I went with WIlson.

How do we know if Tom Wilson developed those skills by working with someone employed by Washington or working with a skills coach on his own? I don’t think these guys are doing a lot of skills training in-season, but I could be wrong on that.

We have seen some skills development with some of our guys. Bert has definitely developed more offensively the last 3/4/5 years. I saw Rasmussen do some stuff last year I didn’t think he was capable of 2 years ago.

 

[Bench]

You obviously didn't watch him his rookie year or even his first 3 seasons. He had absolutely no puck skills, looked like an AHL level enforcer at best but with NHL skating abilities.

Yes I'm sure that's exactly why he was a consensus middle first round pick. Because he had "no puck skills" and "looked like an AHL enforcer."

But I obviously didn't watch him and don't have your trained eye for talent evaluation.

Come on, dude. You've cemented yourself into this wild stance and you're tripping over yourself to prove something you're barely able to articulate in a meaningful and quantifiable way.

 

[Frk It]

This season he makes less than a mil but the 3rd season pays $2.7M. He needs to be better than a warm body by then.

Besides, if Zadina doesn't improve he has no place on a playoff roster. Not physical enough and too dumb to figure out that you don't try to step into Makar/McAvoy/etc.

His cap hit is 1.875, that’s what matters.

 

[norrisnick]

This season he makes less than a mil but the 3rd season pays $2.7M. He needs to be better than a warm body by then.

Besides, if Zadina doesn't improve he has no place on a playoff roster. Not physical enough and too dumb to figure out that you don't try to step into Makar/McAvoy/etc.

And Adam Erne is pulling in $2.4M this year. Zadina has his contract value covered quite easily.

 

[Bench]

How do we know if Tom Wilson developed those skills by working with someone employed by Washington or working with a skills coach on his own? I don’t think these guys are doing a lot of skills training in-season, but I conf be wrong ok that.

Tom Wilson was already showing those skills before he got drafted. It's why he got drafted so high. This revisionist narrative around him being some hidden gem with no hands that the Capitals unlocked with their mysterious unnamed
skills coaches completely ignores his uptick in offense in the OHL. His numbers went up before he ever stepped onto pro ice. That's pretty impressive for an "AHL goon."

And ultimately all of this is talking like Tom Wilson is some scoring leader now ala Pasta. He's a 20 goal, 50 point guy in his best years. That package is completely in line with his draft position and scouting reports at the time.

As you aptly brought up, Tyler Bertuzzi has a much more impressive rise to top line player. Drafted 40 spots later, called a nepotism pick by some, and showed less offense than Wilson in the same OHL in his draft year.

 

[Frk It]

Tom Wilson was already showing those skills before he got drafted. It's why he got drafted so high. This revisionist narrative around him being some hidden gem with no hands that the Capitals unlocked with their mysterious unnamed
skills coaches completely ignores his uptick in offense in the OHL. His numbers went up before he ever stepped onto pro ice. That's pretty impressive for an "AHL goon."

And ultimately all of this is talking like Tom Wilson is some scoring leader now ala Pasta. He's a 20 goal, 50 point guy in his best years. That package is completely in line with his draft position and scouting reports at the time.

As you aptly brought up, Tyler Bertuzzi has a much more impressive rise to top line player. Drafted 40 spots later, called a nepotism pick by some, and showed less offense than Wilson in the same OHL in his draft year.

I’ve always been genuinely curious in how development is handled with players. I’ve always thought a lot of it was providing players with the resources (nutrition, skills coaches to reach out to, etc) but it ultimately falls on the player to make those things materialize, and the off-season is really the time frame for then to chip away at it.

That’s not to say they won’t work on various things at practices throughout the season, things will get focused on the team needs reinforcing on (breakouts, finishing, etc,)

But if I understand correctly I feel like the overall mindset of teams is to give the players the tools to succeed, then it’s on the player to see those things through. (Which in my eyes is mostly how it should be.)

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Well if they were working on it I would actually expect some results.

They obviously aren't spending enough money and time at it because I've seen more improvements out of weekend ski instructors that take one hour clinics every other week. Different sport and much lower level, but still.....

You have to question something when you see zero improvement over a 3 year span.

Also, as far as Yzerman is concerned, it may have been a budgetary issue during COVID. Now that Chris is making money, he might be able to expand his staff.

As you say different sport but more importantly MUCH lower level. In terms of room for improvement there’s no comparison between weekend ski instructors and athletes playing at the absolute top level of the sport.

And the report in Wilson was unknown offensive upside but showed “flashes of brilliance” and stepped up his production in the playoffs.