EP40 Charging Penalty

Charging or no?


  • Total voters
    248

Bizzare

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May 5, 2013
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All I know is, I don't like that EP jumped. It's an innocent looking play with the puck just being passed back to the Dman inside their zone as Hughes threw a shitty pass off the boards, but EP's got a guy following the puck right up the wall so he's forced to protect himself with no time to make a safe play up the ice.

EDM player kind of gets the shaft in this one because he didn't really do anything wrong. He doesn't look to level EP and only braces for impact when he turns his back to him and just eats a high flying body. If the EDM guy is looking to smash him EP would have probably taken the worst of that collision and then we'd have people whining about EP getting injured off of a suicide pass or something and the EDM player not taking it upon himself to react to a split second change in body positioning.

Ah well, doesn't sound like the guy got hurt, but I've never been a fan of players turning their backs to incoming contact at the last moment.
Foegele is 100% coming for a hit.
 

heretik27

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Apr 18, 2013
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Foegele is 100% coming for a hit.

He's likely going for a bump with his chest and shoulders square to EP the entire way to finish his check. EP turns his back to him and he leans backwards while bracing for impact, his right skate comes off the ice because he's trying to avoid major contact rather than dish it and he gets toppled over.
 

Bizzare

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May 5, 2013
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He's likely going for a bump with his chest and shoulders square to EP the entire way to finish his check. EP turns his back to him and he leans backwards while bracing for impact, his right skate comes off the ice because he's trying to avoid major contact rather than dish it and he gets toppled over.
Sometimes you’re the hammer, sometimes you’re the nail.

EP40 did nothing wrong, but Foegele 100% took the worst of it.
 
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BLNY

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This is the correct answer, just because “he didn’t initiate contact” doesn’t mean he didn’t jump into him and it is legal.

Are we really good to set the precedent that you can jump a foot in the air to take a hit lol
Didn't work out well for Mike Keane in 93 lol.
 

Avsfan1921

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Oct 5, 2019
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Yes, I said already we fundamentally disagreed on who was attempting to hit who, and you got all upset that I “wasn’t answering” after you did.

Do you think Petey would have fallen over if Foegele hit him and he was on the ice? I do

Do you think Foegele would have fallen over if Petey was on the ice? I don’t

Seems like it worked then.

Still waiting for a response on my tripping post… ever going to respond to that?
I don’t know what you’re talking about in regards to a tripping post. I will look back to see if I can find what you are talking about there.

In regards to the fundamental disagreement on who hit who, I am asking you to justify why you think he is merely hust staying in his space. Break down how jumping in the air alone changes the amount of potential danger. If he’s hit in a planted area, yes, but that wasn’t going to be the case. So he sees the player coming, turns his back and jumps, why? In your words he’s not defending the ice, he’s merely staying in his space… after turning his back to a known player bearing down on him, and jumping in the air to maintain his space.

Edit: we’ve had so many back and forths today that I truly don’t know the Tripping thing you are referring to. If it’s the Mcdavid thing, I could care less to “defend” it because it has no bearing on this, I’ve never commented on it and don’t care about what else has happened in this series. To ask me to “defend” something I have not engaged with you about is odd. If you want my opinion, yes he sold it, but that’s neither here nor there on this topic.
 

Bizzare

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Like I said, his instincts are to turn his body and protect himself in anticipation of the oncoming contact, I just don't like that he jumped.
If he’s along the boards and jumps sideways where Foegele hits his shoulder … do you care?

Exaclty, plus my first flight landed so I can do something productive for a while.

I’ll leave one for you though @Avsfan1921 since you want to debate weird scenarios. If a player breaks their stick and drops the second half and another player falls over it 30 seconds later.. it’s a tripping penalty right? If you don’t agree you can at least understand why it would be called though right?

I don’t know what you’re talking about in regards to a tripping post. I will look back to see if I can find what you are talking about there.

In regards to the fundamental disagreement on who hit who, I am asking you to justify why you think he is merely hust staying in his space. Break down how jumping in the air alone changes the amount of potential danger. If he’s hit in a planted area, yes, but that wasn’t going to be the case. So he sees the player coming, turns his back and jumps, why? In your words he’s not defending the ice, he’s merely staying in his space… after turning his back to a known player bearing down on him, and jumping in the air to maintain his space.
Herr you go, phone is going to die because this shit plane has no charger. Don’t miss me while I’m gone I’ll respond later.
 
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Avsfan1921

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If he’s along the boards and jumps sideways where Foegele hits his shoulder … do you care?




Herr you go, phone is going to die because this shit plane has no charger. Don’t miss me while I’m gone I’ll respond later.
I’ve edited my last post in response to what I think you are referring to in regards to the “trip”. Feel free to correct me if I’ve missed what you are referring to.
 

heretik27

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If he’s along the boards and jumps sideways where Foegele hits his shoulder … do you care?

I'm not dealing in hypotheticals and I'm not sure I'm even picturing this imaginary scenario properly. If you're saying he does some wildly unsafe jump that leads to himself getting injured, I'd say he's a dumbass. If you're saying he somehow manages to do the 180 turn away from Foegele, jump sideways and only make contact with his shoulder, I'd still say it's a stupid play because he's jumping into contact, increasing the likelihood someone gets injured. There's no reason to jump. At all. Players have to stop turning their back to hits because it's dangerous for them.
 
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Avsfan1921

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Oct 5, 2019
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If he’s along the boards and jumps sideways where Foegele hits his shoulder … do you care?
It depends, if I think he’s trying to reverse hit and leaves his feet then yes, if he’s clearly jumping to get out of the way, no.

“I’ll leave one for you though @Avsfan1921 since you want to debate weird scenarios. If a player breaks their stick and drops the second half and another player falls over it 30 seconds later.. it’s a tripping penalty right? If you don’t agree you can at least understand why it would be called though right?”

I’ve copied and pasted your question as it wasn’t included in the above for some reason:
Obviously no, it’s not a penalty, nor does this scenario have any bearing on a potential charge. And to the bolded the only scenario I’ve brought up this entire time is the one this poll is made on. You’re the one bringing up different scenarios. I’m discussing if a player leaves his feet in an attempt at body contact, it is a charge in my view.
 

swiftwin

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Clear penalty. It's clearly written in the rule book.

There's nothing to argue.
 

matsqq

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Jan 3, 2011
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That jump is as clear of a Charging penalty as you’ll see. Doesn’t matter who initiates you can’t jump into a hit/reverse hit.

Kronwall did this a lot and got called more than a few times, like that Havlat hit in the playoffs. Usually they just call it interference but it’s a textbook charge.
Has no baring at all from what I can see .
Kronwall is not standing still and jumping straight up as another player charges into him .


This situation does not occur all the time like you seem to imply . I follow a lot of hockey every year, watch both SHL and NHL and I can't recall this type of incident .

BTW Just stating that "it is an obvious penalty" or the opposite is not an argument , its just an opinion, show me the exact same situation or someone discussing this exact situation , otherwise it's not very interesting.
 
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wetcoast

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Enough back and forth about this in the Vancouver Edmonton thread… may as well make a poll.



I think that well over 90% of all hockey fans seeing this hit, say between 2 teams in the swedish league would be like, "what in the hell is Swedish hockey doing" if they saw this and found out it was a charging penalty.

People can micromanage anything to fit their team's narrative and that doesn't fit the definition of what a charge is.
 

matsqq

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Jan 3, 2011
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@matsqq All these other posts also saying the same thing yet you only laugh at mine. 🤡
LOL, it was mostly because just wrote that "BTW Just stating that "it is an obvious penalty" or the opposite is not an argument , its just an opinion, show me the exact same situation or someone discussing this exact situation , otherwise it's not very interesting." :DD

Anyway you made my day , laughed a lot :thumbu:
 

Ezekial

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LOL, it was mostly because just wrote that "BTW Just stating that "it is an obvious penalty" or the opposite is not an argument , its just an opinion, show me the exact same situation or someone discussing this exact situation , otherwise it's not very interesting." :DD
If contact is coming at you and you jump, you've jumped into contact. That answers your post where you get hung up on the word "into"
 

matsqq

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Jan 3, 2011
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If contact is coming at you and you jump, you've jumped into contact. That answers your post where you get hung up on the word "into"
Well the rule is called CHARGING and if you showed this situation to some random people and then asked : "which of these two players is CHARGING" you guys will probably get an answer you might not like.
 
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matsqq

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Jan 3, 2011
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Here is a quote from a ref on Reddit



"or perspective: I’m a high level national referee in the Netherlands, where we use the IIHF rulebook. Our rule is written a bit differently but it is, in practical effect, the same as the NHL’s.

We spend a lot of time in training seminars discussing charging. It’s probably the one rule we talk about the most. Because it’s hard to see and you probably need to understand why the rule exists as much as what the words say.

The basic gist is that: a player who travels an excessive distance to deliver a check by definition has such an unfair positional advantage over his target that this is a frequent source of severe, life threatening injury.

Why is that? Well first, vision. The player with the puck has a lot of distractions around them. Even if they’re playing “heads up” hockey, it’s very easy to lose track of any of the 9 other skaters on the ice. An opponent can take advantage of this by coming from far outside the immediate area of play, lining a guy up, and putting him in the hospital. Maybe for the rest of his life.

Second, speed differential. And this one comes into play in this hit. If the player with the puck is trying to make a play, even if they’re playing heads up and see you coming, you have such a tremendous speed differential that they cannot defend themselves at all: because of your speed, vector, and the distance you’re coming from, you have eliminated any ability on their part to use superior skating, flexibility, stick work, etc, to avoid your hit. Watching this hit, it really doesn’t matter what Evans does - he has absolutely zero ability to mitigate Scheifele’s check.

That’s the difference between a legal body check and a charge."



And EP40 is not coming with any speed at all, his opponent does , so all their reasoning about the charging penalty falls completely apart, one might think.

The Kronwall hit on Havlat can be reasoned with in this way, a clear charging, EP40:s "hit" seems not to fit in above at all
 

Ezekial

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Well the rule is called CHARGING and if you showed this situation to some random people and then asked : "which of these two players is CHARGING" you guys will probably get an answer you might not like.
Screenshot_20240517_220132_Chrome.jpg


Hope this helps.
 
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matsqq

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As I said, I want examples of people being penalized for standing still , jumping straight up as another player comes charging on to them.

THAT would be interesting ...
 

Avsfan1921

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Oct 5, 2019
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Here is a quote from a ref on Reddit



"or perspective: I’m a high level national referee in the Netherlands, where we use the IIHF rulebook. Our rule is written a bit differently but it is, in practical effect, the same as the NHL’s.

We spend a lot of time in training seminars discussing charging. It’s probably the one rule we talk about the most. Because it’s hard to see and you probably need to understand why the rule exists as much as what the words say.

The basic gist is that: a player who travels an excessive distance to deliver a check by definition has such an unfair positional advantage over his target that this is a frequent source of severe, life threatening injury.

Why is that? Well first, vision. The player with the puck has a lot of distractions around them. Even if they’re playing “heads up” hockey, it’s very easy to lose track of any of the 9 other skaters on the ice. An opponent can take advantage of this by coming from far outside the immediate area of play, lining a guy up, and putting him in the hospital. Maybe for the rest of his life.

Second, speed differential. And this one comes into play in this hit. If the player with the puck is trying to make a play, even if they’re playing heads up and see you coming, you have such a tremendous speed differential that they cannot defend themselves at all: because of your speed, vector, and the distance you’re coming from, you have eliminated any ability on their part to use superior skating, flexibility, stick work, etc, to avoid your hit. Watching this hit, it really doesn’t matter what Evans does - he has absolutely zero ability to mitigate Scheifele’s check.

That’s the difference between a legal body check and a charge."



And EP40 is not coming with any speed at all, his opponent does , so all their reasoning about the charging penalty falls completely apart, one might think.

The Kronwall hit on Havlat can be reasoned with in this way, a clear charging, EP40:s "hit" seems not to fit in above at all

Not sure I’m following your train of thought here. Do you mind explaining how you feel this applies to the petterson incident? The rule very clearly states that you cannot jump into a player under any circumstance. At this point, I think the debatable part of this topic is weather he is intending to body check, or get out of the way/defend his ice.

As I said, I want examples of people being penalized for standing still , jumping straight up as another player comes charging on to them.

THAT would be interesting ...
This is a play that I don’t think any of us have seen an exact instance of before. Not a lot of precedent. If you can find instances of plays like this happening and not being called, we could analyze it further.
 

matsqq

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Jan 3, 2011
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This is a play that I don’t think any of us have seen an exact instance of before. Not a lot of precedent. If you can find instances of plays like this happening and not being called, we could analyze it further.
The reason we talk about it is because there WAS a penalty

This might have happened a lot of times before but NOT being called and nobody thought it was strange and nobody even lifted their eye brow...

This time there was a penalty and people reacted , even the commentator who probably have seen a lot of hockey reacted ...

It would be interesting to hear if there were any discussion about this afterwards with officials etc .

BTW, I am not here to win an argument, that would be childish, I am genuinely interested in this
 

Avsfan1921

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Oct 5, 2019
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The reason we talk about it is because there WAS a penalty

This might have happened a lot of times before but NOT being called and nobody thought it was strange and nobody even lifted their eye brow...

This time there was a penalty and people reacted , even the commentator who probably have seen a lot of hockey reacted ...

It would be interesting to hear if there were any discussion about this afterwards with officials etc .

BTW, I am not here to win an argument, that would be childish, I am genuinely interested in this
I agree it’s interesting, nor am I trying to win any arguments here. Just laying out how I see it as charging.
 
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