News Article: Edmonton is at the top of list for No-Trade Destination

[Replacement*]

It's a measure of what percentage of the day falls within a certain temperature range. It classifies comfortable as 18-24 degrees, warm as 25-29. It's saying that in July for example, 14% of the day is on average warm, 32% in the comfortable range.

The question is more about how such temp figures are ascribed. As to comfortable 20C is the most typical thermostat setting found anywhere. Nobody I am aware of anywhere sets their thermostat to 24C calling that comfortable. Hell many people in Edmonton use air conditioning when interior temp is 24C. Thats over 75F which is considered unpleasant interior temps here.

Comfortable really should be anywhere from say 15C-22C and Warm is anywhere from 22C and up. Actually who out there doesn't feel warm at 20-21C? Reptiles? The numbers are way off from what most people here would consider comfortable and hot. hell anything above 15C is Tshirt and shorts weather to most active people here.

My sense is this scale is developed by people with a hot temperature acclimatisation. Its thus skewed to that.

 

[bombers15]

The best season in Calgary is winter, as Chinooks can make it bearable. But when your best season is winter...meh. Alberta's climate is crap and can't at all be used as an argument for how great the place is. Actually, this is true for most places in Canada. Unless you're just comparing Canadian cities. And come on, the climate in Canada is bad.

I like both Edmonton and Calgary, but for different reasons. So it just depends what you like. Edmonton has a better community feel, and that's actually a pretty big deal for people. Calgary is better looking and better located, but it can be pretty corporate and unfriendly. Plus that urban sprawl.

One thing I've also noticed is the crazy complex of Calgarians whenever Edmonton is brought up. Seriously, why so defensive? It seems unhealthy.

Anyway, this report isn't all that surprising. It's also not that scientific, but still.

 

[bucks_oil]

Its not at all a comparable. Soccer infrastructure, equipment ........
WE don't pay this much for hockey just for healthy and fit. We pay because Hockey is the biggest sports lobby in this country. While being far from the most participated sport in this country. So that theres huge disparity in respective funding.

Anyway that's OT.

Look, during university I played varsity soccer and worked summers for a local youth soccer organization. While I don't necessarily think you've convinced me above, I do get what you are saying. Organized hockey gets more than its fair share... but it is benefiting a lot of people regardless of whether its pro-rata share is "fair" or not.

It is also true that it is an expensive sport... and you somewhat contradict yourself when saying its participation numbers are going down. Why is that? It certainly isn't because it's cultural relevance as a sport has decreased... fun factor? perhaps... but most likely the cost is to blame.

So back on topic... remember, I said my parents paid for hockey? Parents still pay for hockey, you can't be disputing that as the cost is why it remains unobtainable for some.

What we were actually debating was your assertion that Johnny Hockey(tm) is somehow beholding to you for the minute portion of your tax dollars that may have subsidized his Tidbits uniform way back then.

How far can you take that argument and have it remain a rational position? (and Nunymare, I'm keeping this non-partisan and economics focused)

Does it mean that since our education system is very subsidized that every student is beholding to the tax payer to stay in Canada, or to live up to the potential their education afforded them? It might be nice, but neither of those things happen. Personal choice is a thing.

Similarly, does somebody in Dryden Ontario, which supported the Pronger family, or Thunder Bay which supported the Staals get to say that they are also entitled to a local NHL team?

Should the Sedins be denied entry cuz they were taking ice-time from Zach Kassian?

It's just a HUGE stretch Replacement. The basic premise of any social goods is that they are funded by many and available to many, NOT that they are equally used by all (knock on wood I haven't been to the doctor in years).

If you are arguing that because a player is from somewhere in Canada that he should defacto have EDM on his list simply because Canada is a supportive hockey environment?... Well I just think it's a stretch and economically I don't think we should care much. Let him make his millions wherever he can and *hopefully, when it comes time to retire at 35, if he even has kids yet, he'll be bringing them and his wads of cash back to Edmonton/Dryden/Ottawa/Summerside to set up shop and buy his McLumberjack Mansion.

 

[Replacement*]

There is little doubt that climate change has resulted in a retreat in the ice cover of the Arctic Ocean. The relationship between having more open water and the NA weather patterns (e.g., shift in the jet stream) are items currently under study. Nonetheless, it remains too early to establish a solid link because climate is measured over decades and weather for a single year can just be an oscillation that is part of the overall trend. It will be an interesting situation to follow.

Yep, its a fascinating area. I've known people that were glaciologists, so I'm familiar with the trends.

I'm not looking it as single year. i'm looking at trends. But even experientially I'm old enough to know what the weather was usually like here 50yrs ago. Its been a lot easier in recent decades. I see Edmonton warming up more and more. However, Edmonton is also getting drier through the decades. For instance trends like watering the lawn only occurred here in last 25yrs. Prior to that it would have seemed silly to water the lawn when its raining regularly.
My parents had 1 large water barrel and a large garden and water barrel was NEVER empty.
I have 4 comparable water barrels and I occasionally run out with less watering and garden area. Strange thing is all 4 barrels fill up but ground gets a lot drier now than it used to and periods of hot and no moisture are prolonged. We've had complete month with very little rain in recent years. That happened rarely if ever before.

 

[mjlee]

As an outsider fan with a soft spot for Edmonton, not sure why you guys put so much effort into arguing about the weather. The majority of the league are Canadians, of those a significant amount are from Western Canada/Alberta, ergo they grew up with the Edmonton kind of weather. So having family still living there year around and having spent their childhood and teens in the same climate, why on earth would the winters be a sticking point? More to the point, they are on the road at least half the time of the season.

Where Edmonton has a huge problem with FAs and UFAs is that your management is known for feuding with players and being petty and outright mean. Comrie, Smyth, Souray etc, etc, all were visibly ill-treated by management, the NHL is a small world, people talk and by now I bet there are quite a few stories floating around. Also, as has been alluded to already, by the nature of the system the majority of FA/UFA are going to be in their mid to late twenties. That means most of them will be married or with a SO and possibly children. Signings do not happen in a vacum. You need to sell the total package, have players wives phone up the prospective player's wife, have personnel to make sure moving, finding schools, social networks, *jobs* works for the wife. The player will be away during parts of the season, the wife will have to deal with schools, sudden measles outbreaks no friends and yes, winter. Sell Edmonton to the female part of the equation and you will have a larger success + get rid of everyone from the old management with the reps they have by now around the league and when you build it they will come

 

[Replacement*]

Look, during university I played varsity soccer and worked summers for a local youth soccer organization. While I don't necessarily think you've convinced me above, I do get what you are saying. Organized hockey gets more than its fair share... but it is benefiting a lot of people regardless of whether its pro-rata share is "fair" or not.

It is also true that it is an expensive sport... and you somewhat contradict yourself when saying its participation numbers are going down. Why is that? It certainly isn't because it's cultural relevance as a sport has decreased... fun factor? perhaps... but most likely the cost is to blame.

So back on topic... remember, I said my parents paid for hockey? Parents still pay for hockey, you can't be disputing that as the cost is why it remains unobtainable for some.

What we were actually debating was your assertion that Johnny Hockey(tm) is somehow beholding to you for the minute portion of your tax dollars that may have subsidized his Tidbits uniform way back then.

How far can you take that argument and have it remain a rational position? (and Nunymare, I'm keeping this non-partisan and economics focused)

Does it mean that since our education system is very subsidized that every student is beholding to the tax payer to stay in Canada, or to live up to the potential their education afforded them? It might be nice, but neither of those things happen. Personal choice is a thing.

Similarly, does somebody in Dryden Ontario, which supported the Pronger family, or Thunder Bay which supported the Staals get to say that they are also entitled to a local NHL team?

Should the Sedins be denied entry cuz they were taking ice-time from Zach Kassian?

It's just a HUGE stretch Replacement. The basic premise of any social goods is that they are funded by many and available to many, NOT that they are equally used by all (knock on wood I haven't been to the doctor in years).

I enjoy the discussion, and I hope its OK to have it. We're all conducting ourselves well and having I think interesting dialog.

As to the fun factor, yes, its a huge factor. Polls have been done on why kids have largely stopped playing hockey and the top concerns are it just isn't fun anymore (that's sad) too many injuries and not enough bubble wrap (this consistent with parents increased concerns about child safety and which has really increased. Parents really have increased fears of childrens safety these days, despite these being the safest times for kids ever) next, cost. But having said that all of kidsport, Sports Central, Fee reduction plan, etc make it possible for any kid here to play hockey if they wanted to. With negligible costs or outlay attached. (these are of course subsidized programs)

Not sure how I contradicted. You followed my argument. The Hockey lobby in Canada is very powerful. Very disproportionate to how many people play the game. Certainly as a growing healthy kids argument hockeys day has come and gone. Other sports have led the way. Soccer (low cost, all you need is a field and a ball) has led the way for a longtime.

 

[Replacement*]

As an outsider fan with a soft spot for Edmonton, not sure why you guys put so much effort into arguing about the weather. The majority of the league are Canadians, of those a significant amount are from Western Canada/Alberta, ergo they grew up with the Edmonton kind of weather. So having family still living there year around and having spent their childhood and teens in the same climate, why on earth would the winters be a sticking point? More to the point, they are on the road at least half the time of the season.

Where Edmonton has a huge problem with FAs and UFAs is that your management is known for feuding with players and being petty and outright mean. Comrie, Smyth, Souray etc, etc, all were visibly ill-treated by management, the NHL is a small world, people talk and by now I bet there are quite a few stories floating around. Also, as has been alluded to already, by the nature of the system the majority of FA/UFA are going to be in their mid to late twenties. That means most of them will be married or with a SO and possibly children. Signings do not happen in a vacum. You need to sell the total package, have players wives phone up the prospective player's wife, have personnel to make sure moving, finding schools, social networks, *jobs* works for the wife. The player will be away during parts of the season, the wife will have to deal with schools, sudden measles outbreaks no friends and yes, winter. Sell Edmonton to the female part of the equation and you will have a larger success + get rid of everyone from the old management with the reps they have by now around the league and when you build it they will come

Reason the convo has focused on the weather is you can pretty much draw a graph between temps/latitudes and expressed NHLPA preference from polls. That's why so much of the topic has been Canada is that the free agents are saying the Canadian Cities are mostly not attractive. (except Vancouver which has better climate)

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

The question is more about how such temp figures are ascribed. As to comfortable 20C is the most typical thermostat setting found anywhere. Nobody I am aware of anywhere sets their thermostat to 24C calling that comfortable. Hell many people in Edmonton use air conditioning when interior temp is 24C. Thats over 75F which is considered unpleasant interior temps here.

Comfortable really should be anywhere from say 15C-22C and Warm is anywhere from 22C and up. Actually who out there doesn't feel warm at 20-21C? Reptiles? The numbers are way off from what most people here would consider comfortable and hot. hell anything above 15C is Tshirt and shorts weather to most active people here.

My sense is this scale is developed by people with a hot temperature acclimatisation. Its thus skewed to that.

Again, your opinion on what is a comfortable temperature compared to the majority of people is obviously different. 15C is not really shorts and t-shirt weather, unless you are a very hairy person, which is fine .
There are reasons why restaurant patios & parks are empty at 15C and full at 25C. People like to be out in warm weather.
The City of Edmonton closes outdoor pools at anything less than 18C because they even say its too cold.

 

[Replacement*]

Again, your opinion on what is a comfortable temperature compared to the majority of people is obviously different. 15C is not really shorts and t-shirt weather, unless you are a very hairy person, which is fine .
There are reasons why restaurant patios & parks are empty at 15C and full at 25C. People like to be out in warm weather.
The City of Edmonton closes outdoor pools at anything less than 18C because they even say its too cold.

I'll reiterate the mode setting on thermostats is 20-21C. That's what it is. That to me sets the human preference on what is considered warm. Not 25C which is starting to get into hot.

That's not stating my opinion that's stating general preference as recognized by thermostatic control

heh, 15C is comfortable to me because I'm usually active outdoors and moving around and playing if not working. I'm a T shirt person from May to throughout September. makes packing easy...lol

patios in Edmonton are full at 15 -20C. Especially in spring. People complain vociferously here on C2E when the patios are not open at 10-15C. people are now having winter block party parties and Barbecues in winter. Deck use even occurring in winter here as it would in Scandinavian countries. its only minimal adaptation and learning involved.

But not only here. In Vancouver go do the beach anytime of year and you see people walking along in winter in 5C with as little as a sweater and pants. I see people with shorts. Its all about what people are used to. I actually find 5-10Cquite comfortable with no wind. Its just wear a sweater or sweatshirt weather.

Water is different because getting in and out of water always feels colder due to the evaporation reaction and skin being wet which brings down temps. Similarly the bodys sweat reaction is designed to bring down temps. That's a different thing altogether. Any cooler temp is uncomfortable when wet.

 

[PBandJ]

15C isn't short and t-shirt weather?

WEM, the best thing about this city, is a bad thing?

Wow.

 

[The Big Unit]

they were discussing this very issue on Gregor's radio show earlier today. They basically said that the NYI were on that list just a few years ago because they sucked as a team and organization. Now......poof......not on the list anymore. The MAIN factor that Edmonton is at the top of the list for teams that players won't waive a NTC for is because the team sucks. Everything else is basically secondary. Win and minds will change and so will Edmonton's luck in free agency.

 

[Replacement*]

they were discussing this very issue on Gregor's radio show earlier today. They basically said that the NYI were on that list just a few years ago because they sucked as a team and organization. Now......poof......not on the list anymore. The MAIN factor that Edmonton is at the top of the list for teams that players won't waive a NTC for is because the team sucks. Everything else is basically secondary. Win and minds will change and so will Edmonton's luck in free agency.

NYI's should still suck. Also moving into Barclays which extremely sucks as a hockey venue in addition to a team being out of place. Like as in the Oilers playing in Red Deer in a facility not designed with hockey in mind.

not long ago you couldn't even get people to attend Islander games. Is attendance up now?

I don't think the Islanders are that good a team either. That org will still lurch along and wouldn't surprise me if it goes under.

 

[Jumptheshark]

15C isn't short and t-shirt weather?

WEM, the best thing about this city, is a bad thing?

Wow.

sorry but yes--if the BEST thing about a city is it's GIANT MALL? then yes it is a bad thing

As someone who has lived all over the world, I think you and I will have different definitions of what makes a city or place good.

 

[The Big Unit]

NYI's should still suck. Also moving into Barclays which extremely sucks as a hockey venue in addition to a team being out of place. Like as in the Oilers playing in Red Deer in a facility not designed with hockey in mind.

not long ago you couldn't even get people to attend Islander games. Is attendance up now?

I don't think the Islanders are that good a team either. That org will still lurch along and wouldn't surprise me if it goes under.

Nope. They signed a real #1 goalie and acquired a couple of good Dmen and have been developing their youngsters for a few years longer than we have. It was just a matter of time before they finally plugged whatever holes they had and got better.

You're right about Barclays not being designed with hockey in mind, and that will be a problem, but playing in New York City is a major boost to the team. The Islanders aren't going anywhere and Barclays is only 23 miles away from Nassau Coliseum. Furthermore, Brooklyn is part of Long Island geographically anyway.

Attendance on Long Island is up and rightfully so. The team is much improved and fans are rewarding the team for its climb in the standings. Making the playoffs in 2013 wasn't an aberration, just a sign of things to come imo.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7085

Finally, Charles Wang is trying to sell the team to AEG who is in talks to buy the Barclays Center. It seems if he's able to unload the team to the new owners of the arena that they're gonna have to get used to being stuck in NYC.

 

[Replacement*]

sorry but yes--if the BEST thing about a city is it's GIANT MALL? then yes it is a bad thing

As someone who has lived all over the world, I think you and I will have different definitions of what makes a city or place good.

hmmm Places like Crystal Palace and Covent Garden were once considered by the populace as some of the top things to do and see in London. just saying

its not completely odd that places with inclement weather and conditions (In Londons case rain, smog, inversion, pollution, and fog) have always had their indoor places for the locals to go. Really the whole idea of sitting days in pubs started where?

Or maybe it was just a better idea to drink beer all day instead of risk drinking the water..

 

[McPuritania]

If this team is winning, no one will give a **** about the weather, and we'll fly off that list faster than Eakins threw out our ping pong table.

 

[Replacement*]

Nope. They signed a real #1 goalie and acquired a couple of good Dmen and have been developing their youngsters for a few years longer than we have. It was just a matter of time before they finally plugged whatever holes they had and got better.

.

I can't see it. I like Tavares. But aside from him and Okposo really ordinary lineup and especially forwards. EC hockey though I generally take a poor view of and feel WC is much stronger. Islander wouldn't make the playoffs in the West jmo. Hard working lineup that isn't deep and that will go nowhere. Not sure how they got people to dig deep for this club. They're not very much.

 

[Jumptheshark]

hmmm Places like Crystal Palace and Covent Garden were once considered by the populace as some of the top things to do and see in London. just saying

its not completely odd that places with inclement weather and conditions (In Londons case rain, smog, inversion, pollution, and fog) have always had their indoor places for the locals to go. Really the whole idea of sitting days in pubs started where?

Or maybe it was just a better idea to drink beer all day instead of risk drinking the water..

Comparing Edmonton Alberta to Edmonton England is a bad idea--let alone to Zone 1 here in London

I wouldn't even dare to compare Edmonton to Chicago/St Louis in Winter for things to do

 

[bucks_oil]

I enjoy the discussion, and I hope its OK to have it. We're all conducting ourselves well and having I think interesting dialog.

As to the fun factor, yes, its a huge factor. Polls have been done on why kids have largely stopped playing hockey and the top concerns are it just isn't fun anymore (that's sad) too many injuries and not enough bubble wrap (this consistent with parents increased concerns about child safety and which has really increased. Parents really have increased fears of childrens safety these days, despite these being the safest times for kids ever) next, cost. But having said that all of kidsport, Sports Central, Fee reduction plan, etc make it possible for any kid here to play hockey if they wanted to. With negligible costs or outlay attached. (these are of course subsidized programs)

Not sure how I contradicted. You followed my argument. The Hockey lobby in Canada is very powerful. Very disproportionate to how many people play the game. Certainly as a growing healthy kids argument hockeys day has come and gone. Other sports have led the way. Soccer (low cost, all you need is a field and a ball) has led the way for a longtime.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm simplifying here: your argument was that Canadians "invest" in hockey players, therefore we should determine where they play. And in your mind Edmonton is one of the places they should play and we should be more thin skinned (defensive) about "our" investment.

My argument is that even though hockey is subsidized, there is still a significant personal & financial investment by the individual, and moreover many, many social goods which can lead much more directly to future earning income are also subsidized in Canada. Like other recreational activities, parks, roads, education, etc. We cannot expect... nay, it would be unfair and unreasonable to expect... that every (insert blank) who ALSO benefitted from these "investments" that they are forever and limitlessly beholding to the populace that made the investment.

Every Canadian has benefited from *something. That's part of what makes it a great country.

The inherent contradiction (which is a more minor point that you've partially since addressed) is that hockey participation is going down in part due to the high cost. So an individual (or their family) who put the time in money in to get to the NHL (especially someone old enough to have done it without more modern subsidy) is free to do what they want with their professional life. They don't owe you anything really.

 

[Replacement*]

Comparing Edmonton Alberta to Edmonton England is a bad idea--let alone to Zone 1 here in London

I wouldn't even dare to compare Edmonton to Chicago/St Louis in Winter for things to do

I love London, just ribbing good sir.

Love England, Scotland, Wales, British culture, history, humor, Telly, if there was one other place I could live..

Always had some kind of affinity growing up for the Brits even though I ain't one but married one. it seemed fate that I would as well. Brit lassies always appealed to me.

St Louis? Would never live there.

 

[Replacement*]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm simplifying here: your argument was that Canadians "invest" in hockey players, therefore we should determine where they play. And in your mind Edmonton is one of the places they should play and we should be more thin skinned (defensive) about "our" investment.

My argument is that even though hockey is subsidized, there is still a significant personal & financial investment by the individual, and moreover many, many social goods which can lead much more directly to future earning income are also subsidized in Canada. Like other recreational activities, parks, roads, education, etc. We cannot expect... nay, it would be unfair and unreasonable to expect... that every (insert blank from below) who ALSO benefitted from these "investments" that they are forever and limitlessly beholding to the populace that made the investment.

Every Canadian has benefited from *something. That's part of what makes it a great country.

(blanks for above: doctor educated in Canada?, Lawyer educated in Canada?, Child born in a subsidized healthcare environment?, Shipping company which expanded using Canadian road?)

You just can't apply your logic at an individual level.... see: Free Will. And if you could, we should have an NHL team in Thunder Bay, Ontario, because those guys are getting less for their "hockey investment" than you are (haha, as if the Oilers make that possible)

i dunno. I get your point. Mine is tenuous as well and I admit that. But only in a present notion of free borders, free trade etc. Wasn't too long ago and still is to a sense that borders and immigration weren't as entirely open. In anycase Canada in general benefits much more from incoming brains, skills, talent in most disciplines. Just not so much in hockey where theres a very clear net exodus and apparently preferentially so by the NHLPA.

Could be as well that affinity with the product, and that kids don't take to hockey in the same way anymore could also be due to all those heros flying the Canadian coop. just a theory, no basis for it other than direct exposure to heros is what often causes affinity to a path.
With Canadian clubs being mediocre on an ongoing basis (with apology to the Canadiens) those heros aren't necessarily found by Canadian lads. Kids are less likely to be hugely into players playing in Tampabay then they would be if these players were playing in Canada, and frequently on Canadian network television. It is a problem and being that the wellspring for hockey players is Canada its a problem that should be being addressed.

 

[The Big Unit]

I can't see it. I like Tavares. But aside from him and Okposo really ordinary lineup and especially forwards. EC hockey though I generally take a poor view of and feel WC is much stronger. Islander wouldn't make the playoffs in the West jmo. Hard working lineup that isn't deep and that will go nowhere. Not sure how they got people to dig deep for this club. They're not very much.

They're an incredibly strong defensive group. They're not winning on offense but rather being responsible defensively and capitalizing on mistakes. If they want to make a deep run, they need another scoring forward or two but Capuano has them playing great defensive hockey. That's how you win these days.

 

[bucks_oil]

Anyway... back on topic. And Replacement, I'm enjoying our argument... truly.

But I honestly believe the attitude that these players "owe" us something, as you've argued... and that they owe it on the ice... and they owe it in the dressing room... and they owe it on the front page of the sports page... and they owe it when out for dinner with their family.

There has to be a limit to it... That's what makes them want to leave. And it would make me want to leave too. This "we made you and so you owe us" attitude is a particularly ugly part of the way treat athletes (and I'll stop there).

And IMO it is NOT just about the anonymity a hockey player gets when he crosses the border.

People here are happy for Tom Brady, even with his millions and his smile and his supermodel girlfriend. No Bostonian feels he owes us for giving a sixth round pick an audition.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

NYI's should still suck. Also moving into Barclays which extremely sucks as a hockey venue in addition to a team being out of place. Like as in the Oilers playing in Red Deer in a facility not designed with hockey in mind.

not long ago you couldn't even get people to attend Islander games. Is attendance up now?

I don't think the Islanders are that good a team either. That org will still lurch along and wouldn't surprise me if it goes under.

Have you looked at the NHL standings? 5th overall in the league.
Not a good team? Maybe you're suffering from heat stroke from the balmy temps outside today.....

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

I'll reiterate the mode setting on thermostats is 20-21C. That's what it is. That to me sets the human preference on what is considered warm. Not 25C which is starting to get into hot.

That's not stating my opinion that's stating general preference as recognized by thermostatic control

heh, 15C is comfortable to me because I'm usually active outdoors and moving around and playing if not working. I'm a T shirt person from May to throughout September. makes packing easy...lol

patios in Edmonton are full at 15 -20C. Especially in spring. People complain vociferously here on C2E when the patios are not open at 10-15C. people are now having winter block party parties and Barbecues in winter. Deck use even occurring in winter here as it would in Scandinavian countries. its only minimal adaptation and learning involved.

But not only here. In Vancouver go do the beach anytime of year and you see people walking along in winter in 5C with as little as a sweater and pants. I see people with shorts. Its all about what people are used to. I actually find 5-10Cquite comfortable with no wind. Its just wear a sweater or sweatshirt weather.

Water is different because getting in and out of water always feels colder due to the evaporation reaction and skin being wet which brings down temps. Similarly the bodys sweat reaction is designed to bring down temps. That's a different thing altogether. Any cooler temp is uncomfortable when wet.

I've lived here almost my whole life. I have never seen nor heard of a winter block party. I'm starting to feel like you live in a different Edmonton than I do.

Patios are not even open at those temps are they ??? Guess we'll have to wait for at least another 3 months to find out.