Proposal: Edm - Van

[Bankerguy]

If you ignore salary / cap hits , i would think Sutter has more value than Russel

Sutter: 17 points in 44 games, pro-rates to a 32 point season. He was also a (+) player on a team where not everyone really was. He has his flaws, is injury prone as well but also provides good PK skills.

Edmonton fans thinks 32 points and solid two-way play is equivalent to a fourth liner? LOL ? what am i missing here? He may be over-priced but if your 4th line C put up a + rating and contributed 32 points..i'd take thatfor sure.
I think he's better than Sheahan and Gagner...

Russel is a great shot blocker but the problem here is that he's a 33 year, 5'10, 175lb offensive style dman who put up only 9 points in 55 games? Advanced stats dont indicate anything more than a bottom pairing guy.
Based on everything, its hard to make a case that he's anything more than a serviceable number 6 guy

Sutter provides more to your team than Russell does and they have almost the same cap hit....

Here's a better comparrison for Russell:

Beagle is a top 3 face off guy in the league, he's a big body, a vocal leader and a grinder but provides little offense and can struggle when pinned in his own end. He's a fourth line player for sure. His value would equate to Russel more than Sutter would

 

[Chayos]

If you ignore salary / cap hits , i would think Sutter has more value than Russel

Sutter: 17 points in 44 games, pro-rates to a 32 point season. He was also a (+) player on a team where not everyone really was. He has his flaws, is injury prone as well but also provides good PK skills.

Edmonton fans thinks 32 points and solid two-way play is equivalent to a fourth liner? LOL ? what am i missing here? He may be over-priced but if your 4th line C put up a + rating and contributed 32 points..i'd take thatfor sure.
I think he's better than Sheahan and Gagner...

Russel is a great shot blocker but the problem here is that he's a 33 year, 5'10, 175lb offensive style dman who put up only 9 points in 55 games?
He's a servicible number 6 guy

Sutter provides more to your team than Russell does and they have almost the same cap hit....

Beagle is the best faceoff guy in the league, he's a big body, a vocal leader and a grinder but provides little offense and can struggle when pinned in his own end. He's a fourth line player for sure. His value would equate to Russel more than Sutter would

We won't lose sleep over missing out on Sutter. I am sure there is something on the fires for the 20/21 season by Holland. I also find it hard to believe these two teams would even be talking about a divisional trade. On a side note I agree with your assessment of the players and pass on the Beagle offer with the additonal year. We have the toughness portion filled by Kassian at a similar value already.

 

[Flyer lurker]

I think Edm can dump Russell onto a Ottawa type of cheap owner and spend the 4m in free agency wiser. Pass on EDM side.

 

[Bankerguy]

We won't lose sleep over missing out on Sutter. I am sure there is something on the fires for the 20/21 season by Holland. I also find it hard to believe these two teams would even be talking about a divisional trade. On a side note I agree with your assessment of the players and pass on the Beagle offer with the additonal year. We have the toughness portion filled by Kassian at a similar value already.

I'd put Kassian's value WAY higher than Beagle. He gets a bad rap for being a bit of a dumb@$$ but he has the skill and skating to provide the grit and sandpaper in a top6 without hindering his linemates

 

[Samus44]

If you ignore salary / cap hits , i would think Sutter has more value than Russel

Sutter: 17 points in 44 games, pro-rates to a 32 point season. He was also a (+) player on a team where not everyone really was. He has his flaws, is injury prone as well but also provides good PK skills.

Edmonton fans thinks 32 points and solid two-way play is equivalent to a fourth liner? LOL ? what am i missing here? He may be over-priced but if your 4th line C put up a + rating and contributed 32 points..i'd take thatfor sure.
I think he's better than Sheahan and Gagner...

Russel is a great shot blocker but the problem here is that he's a 33 year, 5'10, 175lb offensive style dman who put up only 9 points in 55 games? Advanced stats dont indicate anything more than a bottom pairing guy.
Based on everything, its hard to make a case that he's anything more than a serviceable number 6 guy

Sutter provides more to your team than Russell does and they have almost the same cap hit....

Here's a better comparrison for Russell:

Beagle is a top 3 face off guy in the league, he's a big body, a vocal leader and a grinder but provides little offense and can struggle when pinned in his own end. He's a fourth line player for sure. His value would equate to Russel more than Sutter would

He's averaged 18 points over 5 seasons and 47 games, injuries and uneven production are HUGE problems. If you can't rely on him to produce let alone be healthy enough to play it doesn't make sense to slot him into an important role like 3C. He's had 18 points at even strength over his past 2 seasons in 70 games. Sure his production was decent when he played this year but if we're playing the pro rating game then how about we 2018-19 in which he would have put up a pro rated 19 points. He's also been under 50% the last two years for Faceoffs.

Bringing up advanced stats to knock Russell is a bad idea when we're talking about Brandon Sutter who's advanced stats are awful. Bring up +/- helps Russell's case as he much like Sutter has been solid in that category given his team and usage. Kris Russell has consistently been highly valued by every coach he's had and been fairly healthy for a dman. Russell is also an excellent PKer. With Tippett he strongly prefers to keep players on their strong side so Russell has been stuck behind Nurse and Klefbom but he was still heavily used on the PK and elevated to the top 4 on his off side when needed. Russell is still a very good skater, unlike Sutter, so I don't see the concern in regards to age. A good comparison to Russell given how similar their skillsets are I would suggest is Trevor Daley, a guy who has consistently been more valued across the league by GM's than fans and because of it is still playing at 36. People on HF will be shocked when after this year he gets decent term and a multi year contract, I could easily see him make 5 million over 2 years and it would have been more if not for the flat cap.

I actually don't mind Sutter and think when healthy he'd be a useful add but the reality is I'd be shocked if Vancouver could more easily trade a player who's averaged 47 games and 18 points over the last 5 seasons over a player who's been used in the top 4 and survived for multiple years in Edmonton. Russell was valued this year as a 3rd pairing and PK guy who received spot duty in the top 4 and spent the last 4 seasons before it in the top 4 on his offside, on a quality team no less. With Russell you know what you get, with Sutter not so much. Russell is more valued, health, versatility, consistency of play, caphit, actual dollars owed, being a dman, and usage are all in his favour. Dmen get injured frequently so having a versatile veteran who's got experience in the top 4 is more valuable than an oft injured center and history suggests as much. Just look at Trevor Daley, or Ron Hainsey, or Roman Polak, or Rob Scuderi, or Brooks Orpik, Willie Mitchell, Kevin Bieksa, ect... to see an example of how much more opportunity solid veteran dmen get as they age. I respect where you are coming from, and in fairness I think NHL GM's have always overvalued veteran D, but Russell is still a quality player and as such there will be GM's who covet him.

 

[Halla]

If you ignore salary / cap hits , i would think Sutter has more value than Russel

Sutter: 17 points in 44 games, pro-rates to a 32 point season. He was also a (+) player on a team where not everyone really was. He has his flaws, is injury prone as well but also provides good PK skills.

Edmonton fans thinks 32 points and solid two-way play is equivalent to a fourth liner? LOL ? what am i missing here? He may be over-priced but if your 4th line C put up a + rating and contributed 32 points..i'd take thatfor sure.
I think he's better than Sheahan and Gagner...

Russel is a great shot blocker but the problem here is that he's a 33 year, 5'10, 175lb offensive style dman who put up only 9 points in 55 games? Advanced stats dont indicate anything more than a bottom pairing guy.
Based on everything, its hard to make a case that he's anything more than a serviceable number 6 guy

Sutter provides more to your team than Russell does and they have almost the same cap hit....

Here's a better comparrison for Russell:

Beagle is a top 3 face off guy in the league, he's a big body, a vocal leader and a grinder but provides little offense and can struggle when pinned in his own end. He's a fourth line player for sure. His value would equate to Russel more than Sutter would

he hasnt hit 32pts in 3 years. Dude has missed the equivalent of 2 full seasons over the past 5 years, coming in at slightly under 60% of total games actually played.

4.375 mil is a garbage contract for a guy thats only put up an average of 18pts in 46games as a canuck

 

[Bankerguy]

he hasnt hit 32pts in 3 years. Dude has missed the equivalent of 2 full seasons over the past 5 years, coming in at slightly under 60% of total games actually played.

4.375 mil is a garbage contract for a guy thats only put up an average of 18pts in 46games as a canuck

His 32 points is when you pro-rate what he did in his 44 games played this season.
He has had injuries in the past, which i acknowledged, but if healthy, based on the most recent data, he'd provide about 30 points which to me has more value than a no.6 Dman

 

[Fatass]

Canuck fan preferring to keep Sutter at least to start the year. Gaudette is not a match up centre and Horvat is taking on too much. Sutter can spell Horvat, somewhat, if he had recovered from his injuries.

Beagle is the centre to move from the Canucks.

Sutter can still play a role, but where would Russel fit?

 

[BudBundy]

His 32 points is when you pro-rate what he did in his 44 games played this season.
He has had injuries in the past, which i acknowledged, but if healthy, based on the most recent data, he'd provide about 30 points which to me has more value than a no.6 Dman

Small (44 games) sample size to come up with 32 points pro-rated, especially given the last 3 seasons (246 games sample size) showing he wouldn’t likely get near that. Statistically, the average human has one testicle and one breast. I’m not buying a bra based on those numbers. The Oilers can trade Russell in a less risky way than by taking on Sutter, IMO.

 

[Samus44]

His 32 points is when you pro-rate what he did in his 44 games played this season.
He has had injuries in the past, which i acknowledged, but if healthy, based on the most recent data, he'd provide about 30 points which to me has more value than a no.6 Dman

Russell has never been used as a #6 dman as an Oiler. In fact he's largely played top 4 until this season where he was on the 3rd pair playing under two excellent dmen. If he was our #6 he wouldn't have been used in the top 4 on his offside while we had injuries, he wouldn't be a go to player on an elite PK, he wouldn't have spent the previous 3 years to this in the top 4. He and Benning were excellent on the 3rd pair, and it was him not Benning that moved up when needed and played a big role on the PK. Leading a very strong 3rd pairing on a strong team after playing top 4 minutes in the years prior doesn't make you a #6 dman. Not only that it's an oversimplification that NHL GM's don't do, they look at players to fill roles and given the variety of roles he can fill Russell he would be coveted by teams needs versatility, a veteran presence, and PK ability. He would be seen as a #5 at worst if you must simplify it as Russell is a versatile veteran dman who can play up and down the lineup and keeps things safe at evens by anchoring a 3rd pair or playing in the top 4 with a strong partner while performing excellently on the PK. Your building a narrative that is overly simplified and isn't true to facts.

The Oilers have cap issues and a glut of very good young dmen which allows them the possibility of moving him. If we didn't have much cheaper options in Caleb Jones, who's likely to be a quality top 4 dman, and William Lagesson pushing for jobs he wouldn't be going anywhere. Bouchard being available as a call up also mitigates his value of being able to play the right side. The biggest issue in trading Russell won't be his caphit it will be his NTC which exasperates the issue of him being SLIGHTLY overpaid in a flat cap year as it limits the amount of teams that can deal for him. If I was a betting man I'd guess he ends up in LA with his former coach, he used him as a top 4 dman, and for a mid round pick at that. Sutter's injury history and uneven production at nearly 4.5 million makes him a capdump as teams can't commit that much money without knowing what they'll get and with Russell teams know what they'll get. And if you want to make an expectation for Sutter it's clear that based on the most recent data you can expect 40 some games and 18 points which isn't to say he couldn't realistically exceed that it's just that it shouldn't be expected.

 

[Samus44]

Canuck fan preferring to keep Sutter at least to start the year. Gaudette is not a match up centre and Horvat is taking on too much. Sutter can spell Horvat, somewhat, if he had recovered from his injuries.

Beagle is the centre to move from the Canucks.

How in the world are you going to move Jay Beagle? Listen if we could keep Russell and move Neal we would but that seems like a pipe dream so we don't pretend it's the move to make. Let's just be honest with ourselves here.

 

[Bleach Clean]

How in the world are you going to move Jay Beagle? Listen if we could keep Russell and move Neal we would but that seems like a pipe dream so we don't pretend it's the move to make. Let's just be honest with ourselves here.

I honestly think the Canucks should keep Sutter this year. Beagle moving would be nice to have, but I don’t expect it.

No interest in Russel.

 

[Rpenny]

Sutter has 1 year left and Russell is a UFA after this season. So what does Vancouver add to get Edmonton to take that extra year.

 

[ConnorMcNugesaitl]

Sutter has 1 year left and Russell is a UFA after this season. So what does Vancouver add to get Edmonton to take that extra year.

Both players have a year left after this season.

 

[Cogburn]

I bring up that the 2.375 ish in cap space we get from buying Sutter out is a much, much, much better fit then Russell is on our team.

Chiasson, Khaira, Archibald, Nygard, Jones, Bear, Yamamoto and Haas are really the contracts that make sense (financially) for us in this case. The value varies greatly in that group, and taking out a few from a value perspective, the remainders don't have a dedicated spot that their filling, and are therefore only marginally interesting compared to a buyout.

My understanding is Edmonton is looking to free up some cap space as well, so trading an ELC/sub 1 million dollar cap hit makes little sense.

If there is any desire to acquire Sutter for futures, we can sell him cheap or retain, but we aren't looking to simply shift salary else where unless it is extremely reduced.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Russell has never been used as a #6 dman as an Oiler. In fact he's largely played top 4 until this season where he was on the 3rd pair playing under two excellent dmen. If he was our #6 he wouldn't have been used in the top 4 on his offside while we had injuries, he wouldn't be a go to player on an elite PK, he wouldn't have spent the previous 3 years to this in the top 4. He and Benning were excellent on the 3rd pair, and it was him not Benning that moved up when needed and played a big role on the PK. Leading a very strong 3rd pairing on a strong team after playing top 4 minutes in the years prior doesn't make you a #6 dman. Not only that it's an oversimplification that NHL GM's don't do, they look at players to fill roles and given the variety of roles he can fill Russell he would be coveted by teams needs versatility, a veteran presence, and PK ability. He would be seen as a #5 at worst if you must simplify it as Russell is a versatile veteran dman who can play up and down the lineup and keeps things safe at evens by anchoring a 3rd pair or playing in the top 4 with a strong partner while performing excellently on the PK. Your building a narrative that is overly simplified and isn't true to facts.

The Oilers have cap issues and a glut of very good young dmen which allows them the possibility of moving him. If we didn't have much cheaper options in Caleb Jones, who's likely to be a quality top 4 dman, and William Lagesson pushing for jobs he wouldn't be going anywhere. Bouchard being available as a call up also mitigates his value of being able to play the right side. The biggest issue in trading Russell won't be his caphit it will be his NTC which exasperates the issue of him being SLIGHTLY overpaid in a flat cap year as it limits the amount of teams that can deal for him. If I was a betting man I'd guess he ends up in LA with his former coach, he used him as a top 4 dman, and for a mid round pick at that. Sutter's injury history and uneven production at nearly 4.5 million makes him a capdump as teams can't commit that much money without knowing what they'll get and with Russell teams know what they'll get. And if you want to make an expectation for Sutter it's clear that based on the most recent data you can expect 40 some games and 18 points which isn't to say he couldn't realistically exceed that it's just that it shouldn't be expected.

Both Sutter and Russel have negative value and in a flat cap scenario are a challenge to move without retention or a sweetener. I don't see anyone (that Russell would waive for) willing to take him on without a pick / prospect added. It makes more sense for teams to weaponize their capspace and get a sweetener.

 

[belair]

His 32 points is when you pro-rate what he did in his 44 games played this season.
He has had injuries in the past, which i acknowledged, but if healthy, based on the most recent data, he'd provide about 30 points which to me has more value than a no.6 Dman

And the argument is that he isn't healthy. History would suggest that he won't be.

Kris Russell isn't an 'offensive' defenseman of any kind either. He's a primary PK stay-at-home defenseman who can play up to 20 minutes a night, if needed. He completely overhauled his game years ago to stay in this league.

 

[Bleach Clean]

And the argument is that he isn't healthy. History would suggest that he won't be.

Then why dump Russel to get him?

What this indicates is that Russel is of lesser consistent use than Sutter’s inconsistent use. That if made consistent for 1 season, makes this trade a poor one for VAN.

I would rather roll the dice with Sutter and then trade him at the deadline if the team falters.

 

[belair]

Then why dump Russel to get him?

What this indicates is that Russel is of lesser consistent use than Sutter’s inconsistent use. That if made consistent for 1 season, makes this trade a poor one for VAN.

I would rather roll the dice with Sutter and then trade him at the deadline if the team falters.

Because they essentially have offsetting cap-hits and there's a much greater need in Edmonton for a right shooting PK center than there is for Russell, who likely battles Jones and Lagesson for looks on our bottom pair next season.

In Vancouver, the OP is suggesting that the latter is occurring. With EP/Miller, Horvat, Gaudette and Beagle there already, that cap might be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Because they essentially have offsetting cap-hits and there's a much greater need in Edmonton for a right shooting PK center than there is for Russell, who likely battles Jones and Lagesson for looks on our bottom pair next season.

In Vancouver, the OP is suggesting that the latter is occurring. With EP/Miller, Horvat, Gaudette and Beagle there already, that cap might be better spent elsewhere.

To shift the cap to defense doesn't mean it's better spent there, it just means it's shifted there... At best, it would be a wash of superfluous assets. At worst, Sutter rebounds to health for a short stint and makes the trade look silly.

I understand the need for EDM. Have you accounted for VAN's lack of a match-up centre? They need a 3C more than they do a bottom pairing Dman. Both teams have the same need in that regard. The alternative is to keep overloading Horvat with that assignment, which is not ideal.

 

[Cogburn]

Because they essentially have offsetting cap-hits and there's a much greater need in Edmonton for a right shooting PK center than there is for Russell, who likely battles Jones and Lagesson for looks on our bottom pair next season.

In Vancouver, the OP is suggesting that the latter is occurring. With EP/Miller, Horvat, Gaudette and Beagle there already, that cap might be better spent elsewhere.

Elsewhere for us means some of our free agents though. Russell at 4 million isn't the same to us as Tanev, or Stecher and Tryamkin, in terms of equivalent cap hits.

We can use, and have been using, Sutter at RW when Beagle and Gaudette have been playing center. He is simply overpaid as a 4 RW, I think that is objective, just as Russell is overpaid as a possible 6-7 D. We need to remove as much of the cap hit as possible, not replace the cap hit with another player. We have RD available, and a buy out of Sutter with another option (Stecher, Woo, Tryamkin, Fantenberg) are all better fits, financially, then Russell for the team. Russell, even as a buyout candidate, doesn't accomplish our goal of cutting cap (3 million this year, 500k next versus 2 million this year and 1 million next for Sutter).

If there is a need for Sutter in Edmonton, we can retain, upto 2 million, or take back another bottom six player making less.

 

[thadd]

Sutter ain't going anywhere. Coaches love the way he plays. He's an inspiration.

 

[archangel2]

Oilers will try to shed Russel cap hit without taking on an equally cap hit is my guess. They are pretty much against the cap and need room to wiggle. I can the oilers asking Russel to waive his contract and the 4 mill cap hit but only one mill in actual money to a team near the bottom for a late pick

 

[Gavy]

Gotta think the Oil would rather keep Russel