dynasty players after 30 = red army players after 30?

[vadim sharifijanov]

i just had this thought that we can maybe look at the early declines of fetisov, makarov, and larionov in the same way we look at the early declines of trottier, anderson, lafleur, etc. maybe the red army didn't play as many games compared to the NHL, but their training regimen for all those years has to put a lot of extra miles on the body, just like all the extra miles dynasty players get from year after year of deep playoff runs. thoughts?

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[Big Phil]

Well I know once Krutov came to Canada in 1989 he allegedlt ate like a pig and drank like a fish which put him wildly out of shape. Makarov was 31 in '89 and was still pretty good up until '94 so that's a normal decline.

 

[Avy*]

i just had this thought that we can maybe look at the early declines of fetisov, makarov, and larionov in the same way we look at the early declines of trottier, anderson, lafleur, etc. maybe the red army didn't play as many games compared to the NHL, but their training regimen for all those years has to put a lot of extra miles on the body, just like all the extra miles dynasty players get from year after year of deep playoff runs. thoughts?

You forgot about 100 "friendly" matches, soviet cup games, NT games every season.
They actually played more games than NHL players.

Terrible training regimen = myth.

Why so many soviet players declined so fast? Oh it's realy simple and has nothing to do with training regimen.
Alcoholism was absolutely out of control among soviet hockey and soccer player's. The only player who stayed out of these things was Larionov and he played till 43.

 

[Dark Shadows]

You forgot about 100 "friendly" matches, soviet cup games, NT games every season.
They actually played more games than NHL players.

Terrible training regimen = myth.

Why so many soviet players declined so fast? Oh it's realy simple and has nothing to do with training regimen.
Alcoholism was absolutely out of control among soviet hockey and soccer player's. The only player who stayed out of these things was Larionov and he played till 43.

Myth?

Tarasov and later, Tikhonov's brutal 10-11 month training regimens are documented fact.

If you are going to tell me that military personnel who spent 10-11 months a year in military barracks(Where they had non access to alcohol) had alcoholism problems, I would like links with proof detailing who and when.

Regarding these 100+ friendly NT matches. What games are these and what are you talking about?

 

[ck26]

I think variations of Krutov's story are probably fairly common; experiencing freedom, luxury and legit pampering for the first time = bad habits. Go and visit the port city when a Navy ship returns from 4 or 5 months at sea; now multiply that wild-ass behavior by 30 years. If I was suddenly free to auction my services to the highest bidder, to spend my day however I'd like prior to the game, to buy cars and houses, to eat and drink wherever and whatever I'd like, the results would not be pretty.

 

[MS]

I don't think the evidence suggests there is much difference at all between the dropoffs past 30 for USSR stars or for NHL stars of the same period.

Look at the careers of guys like Stastny, Savard, Hawerchuk, Goulet, Kurri, etc. who were *massive* stars during the mid-1980s and suffered the same sort of career dropoff that the Russian guys did after the age of 30.

Even Gretzky fell off hugely past the age of 30 - Gretzky from age 30 onward was really no better than Oates or Francis.

There are really only a couple mid-'80s stars born circa 1960 who didn't suffer that sort of dropoff - Messier and Francis. Bourque on defense.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I think variations of Krutov's story are probably fairly common; experiencing freedom, luxury and legit pampering for the first time = bad habits. Go and visit the port city when a Navy ship returns from 4 or 5 months at sea; now multiply that wild-ass behavior by 30 years. If I was suddenly free to auction my services to the highest bidder, to spend my day however I'd like prior to the game, to buy cars and houses, to eat and drink wherever and whatever I'd like, the results would not be pretty.

For the most part, Krutov was the only one of the Russians who self destructed in that manner so badly.

 

[greatgazoo]

Gretzky from age 30 onward was really no better than Oates or Francis.

QUOTE]

How many times did Oates or Francis lead the league in scoring after 30? Answer zero times. Gretzky did it in '94 at age 33.

Gretzky also buries both of them in playoff points after age 30.

gp-g-a-pts

Gretzky
70-33-65-98

francis
93-23-54-77

oates
85-16-48-64

I'll agree that Gretzky did experience a scoring drop off after 30 but to say he was no better than Oates or Francis is a joke.

 

[lextune]

Gretz also led the league in points the year he turned 30.....So I would say two Art Ross Trophies after 30.

Not to mention he led the league in assists five times after age 30.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Gretzky from age 30 onward was really no better than Oates or Francis.

QUOTE]

How many times did Oates or Francis lead the league in scoring after 30? Answer zero times. Gretzky did it in '94 at age 33.

Gretzky also buries both of them in playoff points after age 30.

gp-g-a-pts

Gretzky
70-33-65-98

francis
93-23-54-77

oates
85-16-48-64

I'll agree that Gretzky did experience a scoring drop off after 30 but to say he was no better than Oates or Francis is a joke.

You read what he wrote wrong.

He meant that Gretzky after the age of 30 was no longer Super Gretzky. But Gretzky after the age of 30 was around equal to a prime Oates or Francis at the time.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Mikhail Tatarinov

For the most part, Krutov was the only one of the Russians who self destructed in that manner so badly.

Mikhail Tatarinov.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Mikhail Tatarinov.

His career was limited by injuries.

Krutov literally sat around and got fat and drunk, putting lackluster effort into playing after hitting NA.

Not the same at all.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Soviet Training

i just had this thought that we can maybe look at the early declines of fetisov, makarov, and larionov in the same way we look at the early declines of trottier, anderson, lafleur, etc. maybe the red army didn't play as many games compared to the NHL, but their training regimen for all those years has to put a lot of extra miles on the body, just like all the extra miles dynasty players get from year after year of deep playoff runs. thoughts?

Soviet hockey training started after WWII and was not long term. Short seasons and tournaments. An analogy could be drawn with the training of runners. A 100m sprinter trains differently than a marathon runner. So the post Red Army /Soviet National team careers that Fetisov, Makarov, Larianov and others had were not a planned part of the program.

North American training for hockey players started app. three generations earlier and was short term since the seasons wer short and the financial incentives for long careers were not there. As the financial incentives to playing hockey grew players became more concrned with long term conditioning. Regardless not all players took full advantage of training opportunities. Others make poor dietary or lifestyle choices choices.

Also sports surgery in th eSoviet Union was not as advanced as it was in North America. Evidenced by how often Bobby Orr's knees were operated on and he kept playing. Similar situation cannot be found in Soviet hockey.

 

[Heat McManus]

His career was limited by injuries.

Krutov literally sat around and got fat and drunk, putting lackluster effort into playing after hitting NA.

Not the same at all.

I remember there was a poster who vehemently denied Krutov self-destructed and that it was all made up by Pat Quinn as to discredit Krutov during arbitration hearings.

Don't remember the time personally though.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Mikhail Tatarinov

His career was limited by injuries.

Krutov literally sat around and got fat and drunk, putting lackluster effort into playing after hitting NA.

Not the same at all.

See Quebec with Fogarty, the Grande Allee / Blvd Laurier bars.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Well I know once Krutov came to Canada in 1989 he allegedlt ate like a pig and drank like a fish which put him wildly out of shape.

I remember a quote about this, something along the lines of "Krutov came to Vancouver, and was blown away by the fact that he didn't have to wait 3 hours in line to buy bread. He retired shortly thereafter, fat and happy".

 

[kaiser matias]

Myth?

Tarasov and later, Tikhonov's brutal 10-11 month training regimens are documented fact.

If you are going to tell me that military personnel who spent 10-11 months a year in military barracks(Where they had non access to alcohol) had alcoholism problems, I would like links with proof detailing who and when.

Regarding these 100+ friendly NT matches. What games are these and what are you talking about?

The Russian military is famous for its copious amounts of drinking. Vodka flowed in the barracks more freely than water did, and still does. It would not be surprising that the hockey team got involved in the rampant alcoholism that is character of the other parts of the Soviet/Russian military.

 

[cynicism]

If you are going to tell me that military personnel who spent 10-11 months a year in military barracks(Where they had non access to alcohol) had alcoholism problems, I would like links with proof detailing who and when.

You do realize that Russia has one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world? Depriving someone of alcohol doesn't cure them from alcoholism. I know plenty of military personel who could drink an entire town under the table. I generally agree with what you have to say on these boards but I disagree here.

 

[Dark Shadows]

You do realize that Russia has one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world? Depriving someone of alcohol doesn't cure them from alcoholism. I know plenty of military personel who could drink an entire town under the table. I generally agree with what you have to say on these boards but I disagree here.

I just find it hard to believe that men kept under strict military barracks 10-11 months of the year were all raging alcoholics. That was the main focus of my response(The poster I was responding to thinking that their training was myth)

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Myth?

Tarasov and later, Tikhonov's brutal 10-11 month training regimens are documented fact.

If you are going to tell me that military personnel who spent 10-11 months a year in military barracks(Where they had non access to alcohol) had alcoholism problems, I would like links with proof detailing who and when.

Regarding these 100+ friendly NT matches. What games are these and what are you talking about?

You must be joking.

Alcohol (vodka in particular) ran deep through Soviet culture, and especially deep in the military.

You don't need links detailing this, just plain life experience. Talk to some former Red Army regulars, they'll tell you.

 

[Avy*]

I remember a quote about this, something along the lines of "Krutov came to Vancouver, and was blown away by the fact that he didn't have to wait 3 hours in line to buy bread. He retired shortly thereafter, fat and happy".

****ing stupid american propoganda

Krutov had some serious problems with discipline and alcohol long long before Vancouver

oh the sweet taste of freedom my ass

 

[YMB29]

So most of the Soviet military and hockey players were alcoholics?
Silly people...

 

[Avy*]

vodka, balalaika, bear dances on the Moscow streets
military barracks... seriously educate your ****ing self
its still 1962 for NA people

 

[saskganesh]

if it's still 1962, I demand you withdraw your missiles.

 

[finchster]

if it's still 1962, I demand you withdraw your missiles.