Post-Game Talk: Ducks 4 @ Canucks 0 | We Are The Little Engine That Literally Can't Even.

[lush]

Team has 4 players under the age of 23, before corrado and horvat that was 2.

nashville, tb, and anaheim have a combined 29. Its not complicated folks, team is too old. Either play the season out with this realization or accept the fact that your interpretation of a team that has this many old players is not an issue is incorrect.

thing that sucks is if we just traded bieksa and higgins the problem solves itself with jensen and corrado, ahl players get called up all the time.

rebuild was

luongo
kesler
Garrison

should have been

luongo
kesler
Bieksa
garrison
higgins

Everyone wants the team to be younger, no question. The problem is most people figure getting younger mean's tanking. We've drafted 2 x 1st founders in the last 2 years and that bodes well for getting younger but you don't want to force those guys into the lineup at the expense of a Higgins or Bieksa

You can trade your older players for equal/lesser players who are younger, but those are hard trades to come by

It's depressing to watch your team get older and worse, but trading them all for futures, tanking, etc. is not the way to sustain a franchise. Those teams you mentioned never really tanked, at least I can't remember them doing it so what does that tell you?

Also keep in mind there are older successful teams out there, youth doesn't automatically correlate to success

You are basically saying that the team is better off long term trading Bieksa and Higgins last summer. The story hasn't played out yet but let's say hypothetically you trade them both for younger players with upside and picks. You're pretty much guaranteeing that you don't make the playoffs this year. So then you're left with young guys that you don't know are capable of helping a team to the post season at the expense of players that do help a team get to the playoffs (assuming we make it this season)

The other thing that is odd about your post is that you include Kesler in the "what the rebuild should have been" WHY?? If you're me you would gladly reverse the Kesler trade -and this is exactly what I am talking about as evidence not to trade away assets to get younger just for the sake of getting younger

I do however wonder whether fans in the city would fill the stadium again and what the ticket market would look like if we had a more traditional rebuild going on. It's easy to say fans might be more interested but I think it would be more depressing to see the Ducks steamroll McCann, Shinkaruk, Virtanen and our young guys than watching them steamroll the Sedins, Burrows and Higgins

 

[MS]

The problem is that fans here want a rebuild two years before the franchise is ready to have a rebuild.

You don't tank when you're still a playoff-caliber team and have no young players ready to step in.

Two years from now, when old players are coming off contracts, and when hopefully some of our current group of 18-19 y/o prospects are ready to step into major roles, you have a rebuilding period where the team will struggle with those young players.

Right now? Gutting any good players with nobody to replace them would just be a mess.

And trading a player like Higgins might get us a 3rd rounder, 2nd rounder tops. It isn't going to add to the youth on our roster.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The problem is that fans here want a rebuild two years before the franchise is ready to have a rebuild.

You don't tank when you're still a playoff-caliber team and have no young players ready to step in.

Two years from now, when old players are coming off contracts, and when hopefully some of our current group of 18-19 y/o prospects are ready to step into major roles, you have a rebuilding period where the team will struggle with those young players.

Right now? Gutting any good players with nobody to replace them would just be a mess.

And trading a player like Higgins might get us a 3rd rounder, 2nd rounder tops. It isn't going to add to the youth on our roster.

The fans here want a rebuild because they don't want to waste the next 2 years seeing the team fail and end up rebuilding anyway. Why wait 2 years just so we can finish 8th or 9th? What's the point of that?

 

[MS]

The fans here want a rebuild because they don't want to waste the next 2 years seeing the team fail and end up rebuilding anyway. Why wait 2 years just so we can finish 8th or 9th? What's the point of that?

No team with the Sedins, decent goaltending, and a quality shutdown defensive pairing (which we would continue to be no matter what, as none of those guys are leaving no matter what) is going to finish bottom-5 in the league.

Given that, it's better to remain competitive with an eye on the future and maintain a quality environment for developing players than to dump our secondary depth for mid-round picks, be less competitive (but still competitive) and move up a couple picks in the draft.

This team is screwed right now because all we have to show for 6 drafts from 2007-2012 are Kassian and Corrado. That can't be fixed overnight, and you can't have a youth movement without young players.

 

[lush]

The fans here want a rebuild because they don't want to waste the next 2 years seeing the team fail and end up rebuilding anyway. Why wait 2 years just so we can finish 8th or 9th? What's the point of that?

The reason why you wait 2 more years is because you then have 2 more drafts, and the players from the last couple drafts are ready to play in the NHL. The stable of young players is larger

The key is obviously avoiding in the next few seasons the trading of any picks

It may even be next season that some of our prospects begin to challenge Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Kassian for spots who knows. But it makes no sense trading those guys now before that's the case

 

[y2kcanucks]

No team with the Sedins, decent goaltending, and a quality shutdown defensive pairing (which we would continue to be no matter what, as none of those guys are leaving no matter what) is going to finish bottom-5 in the league.

Given that, it's better to remain competitive with an eye on the future and maintain a quality environment for developing players than to dump our secondary depth for mid-round picks, be less competitive (but still competitive) and move up a couple picks in the draft.

This team is screwed right now because all we have to show for 6 drafts from 2007-2012 are Kassian and Corrado. That can't be fixed overnight, and you can't have a youth movement without young players.

Right, no team except for last years team maybe...or are you going to come up with some excuse for that?

 

[Black Noise]

Right, no team except for last years team maybe...or are you going to come up with some excuse for that?

We were 6th worse last year.

 

[lush]

Right, no team except for last years team maybe...or are you going to come up with some excuse for that?

Technically we finished bottom 6 last year not bottom 5, but I get your point... well played

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Right, no team except for last years team maybe...or are you going to come up with some excuse for that?

Last year had a plethora of injuries, two of which were on our two best players (Henrik and Santo). Couple that with inconsistent performances at best, a moron coach and it's not surprising we bottomed out. The take away is despite arguably everything going wrong that possibly could we still couldn't finish in the bottom five.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

That's the problem, isn't it. We're too good to have a legitimate shot at a top 5 pick, but not good enough to beat the best in the conference.

 

[Huggy]

You are basically saying that the team is better off long term trading Bieksa and Higgins last summer. The story hasn't played out yet but let's say hypothetically you trade them both for younger players with upside and picks. You're pretty much guaranteeing that you don't make the playoffs this year. So then you're left with young guys that you don't know are capable of helping a team to the post season at the expense of players that do help a team get to the playoffs (assuming we make it this season)

The other thing that is odd about your post is that you include Kesler in the "what the rebuild should have been" WHY?? If you're me you would gladly reverse the Kesler trade -and this is exactly what I am talking about as evidence not to trade away assets to get younger just for the sake of getting younger

I do however wonder whether fans in the city would fill the stadium again and what the ticket market would look like if we had a more traditional rebuild going on. It's easy to say fans might be more interested but I think it would be more depressing to see the Ducks steamroll McCann, Shinkaruk, Virtanen and our young guys than watching them steamroll the Sedins, Burrows and Higgins

First off, the idea the young guys wont know what its like to make the playoffs without the vets if the vets arnt getting there in the first place.

iam not saying to just throw guys in there that arnt ready, but guys like kassian and vey should have been in the top 6 since the start of the season, we cant afford to have guys like higgins eat up those minutes for 6 goals.

its not a lot that needs to be done just a few tweaks for the most part. But when you have the sedins and burrows and higgins its too much, the d core is different but the top 6 looks very very old, and with the way burr plays with horvat i have no issue putting a bit of that age in the bot 6.

a higgins bieksa move is the nudge the team needs, jensen or kassian and corrado are ready

 

[Huggy]

The problem is that fans here want a rebuild two years before the franchise is ready to have a rebuild.

You don't tank when you're still a playoff-caliber team and have no young players ready to step in.

Two years from now, when old players are coming off contracts, and when hopefully some of our current group of 18-19 y/o prospects are ready to step into major roles, you have a rebuilding period where the team will struggle with those young players.

Right now? Gutting any good players with nobody to replace them would just be a mess.

And trading a player like Higgins might get us a 3rd rounder, 2nd rounder tops. It isn't going to add to the youth on our roster.

A 2nd in this yrs draft is another lottry ticket in one of dozens we have now, could be a shea weber

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

First off, the idea the young guys wont know what its like to make the playoffs without the vets if the vets arnt getting there in the first place.

iam not saying to just throw guys in there that arnt ready, but guys like kassian and vey should have been in the top 6 since the start of the season, we cant afford to have guys like higgins eat up those minutes for 6 goals.

its not a lot that needs to be done just a few tweaks for the most part. But when you have the sedins and burrows and higgins its too much, the d core is different but the top 6 looks very very old, and with the way burr plays with horvat i have no issue putting a bit of that age in the bot 6.

a higgins bieksa move is the nudge the team needs, jensen or kassian and corrado are ready

i'm not quite there yet on everything, but pretty damn close

but juice wont go...

 

[canucksfan]

First off, the idea the young guys wont know what its like to make the playoffs without the vets if the vets arnt getting there in the first place.

iam not saying to just throw guys in there that arnt ready, but guys like kassian and vey should have been in the top 6 since the start of the season, we cant afford to have guys like higgins eat up those minutes for 6 goals.

its not a lot that needs to be done just a few tweaks for the most part. But when you have the sedins and burrows and higgins its too much, the d core is different but the top 6 looks very very old, and with the way burr plays with horvat i have no issue putting a bit of that age in the bot 6.

a higgins bieksa move is the nudge the team needs, jensen or kassian and corrado are ready

How is Jensen ready?

Also Bieska isn't going anywhere.

 

[ahmon]

No team with the Sedins, decent goaltending, and a quality shutdown defensive pairing (which we would continue to be no matter what, as none of those guys are leaving no matter what) is going to finish bottom-5 in the league.

Given that, it's better to remain competitive with an eye on the future and maintain a quality environment for developing players than to dump our secondary depth for mid-round picks, be less competitive (but still competitive) and move up a couple picks in the draft.

This team is screwed right now because all we have to show for 6 drafts from 2007-2012 are Kassian and Corrado. That can't be fixed overnight, and you can't have a youth movement without young players.

That couple picks can have a huge impact on the type of prospect you are getting.

We pick 3 spots higher in 2013, we get Monahan. We pick a couple spots higher in 2014 we get Bennett.

The bottom line is, if this core is done. I believe we are not winning the cup with the current core.

Then its better we speed up the rebuild.

What pieces do we have?

Tanev, 25
Horvat, 19
Shinkaruk, 20
Cassels, 19
Subban, 19

Why do you want to delay 2 more years and THEN suck and aim to pick high in the drafts 2017 onwards?

Teams that rebuilt successfully like Chicago and Pittsburgh were able to draft lots of good players in a short period of time, and when they won, guys like Kane, Toews, Crosby were all very young.

Ideally you want all your young core prospects to develop together quickly and build chemistry.

You don't want a big gap, so that the older core pieces have suffered a long time of losing hockey, like the oilers.

I would take a 2nd for Higgins, and run home real quick.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

No team with the Sedins, decent goaltending, and a quality shutdown defensive pairing (which we would continue to be no matter what, as none of those guys are leaving no matter what) is going to finish bottom-5 in the league.

Given that, it's better to remain competitive with an eye on the future and maintain a quality environment for developing players than to dump our secondary depth for mid-round picks, be less competitive (but still competitive) and move up a couple picks in the draft.

This team is screwed right now because all we have to show for 6 drafts from 2007-2012 are Kassian and Corrado. That can't be fixed overnight, and you can't have a youth movement without young players.

This, so much. This.

Still can't believe Patrick White, I feel so bad for him. Couldn't even crack the AHL as a 1st rounder.

What difference does a few draft spots make when you are still drafting guys like Sauve, Mallet, etc. in rounds 2-7? This is essentially why the Oilers suck right now still in year 9? of the rebuild.

 

[Wilch]

This, so much. This.

Still can't believe Patrick White, I feel so bad for him. Couldn't even crack the AHL as a 1st rounder.

I feel bad for us.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I feel bad for us.

Well, obviously that two.

 

[me2]

This, so much. This.

Still can't believe Patrick White, I feel so bad for him. Couldn't even crack the AHL as a 1st rounder.

What difference does a few draft spots make when you are still drafting guys like Sauve, Mallet, etc. in rounds 2-7? This is essentially why the Oilers suck right now still in year 9? of the rebuild.

About the same difference as top 5/10 vs 15-20th overall I would imagine.

 

[No Face No Case]

Matthias - Horvat - Kassian got one shift last night owned the play and we never saw it again

 

[Huggy]

I would take a 2nd for Higgins, and run home real quick.

This argument is on such a fine line, and I agree with you on every point.

It's time to tank, losing a few games won't hurt anyone.

If anything I see Horvat emerging as the perfect captain sick and tired of losing seasons and refusing to ever go back there once the boys pull themselves out.

5 years of top 10 picks and we're looking like LA 2.0, I am all in

 

[Huggy]

Matthias - Horvat - Kassian got one shift last night owned the play and we never saw it again

Yea the coach is concerning at this point, I was really enthusiastic but if I see Higgins on the PP again I am going to snap

 

[PG Canuck]

This argument is on such a fine line, and I agree with you on every point.

It's time to tank, losing a few games won't hurt anyone.

If anything I see Horvat emerging as the perfect captain sick and tired of losing seasons and refusing to ever go back there once the boys pull themselves out.

5 years of top 10 picks and we're looking like LA 2.0, I am all in

Except a big reason LA is as good as they are, is because of the supporting players around the players they drafted too. It's no guarantee we can just pull that off. When's the last time we pulled a trade like LA did to get Richards/Carter? That was a huge trade for them.

If everything were so easy (tanking and drafting), Edmonton wouldn't still be rebuilding.

 

[Huggy]

Except a big reason LA is as good as they are, is because of the supporting players around the players they drafted too. It's no guarantee we can just pull that off. When's the last time we pulled a trade like LA did to get Richards/Carter? That was a huge trade for them.

If everything were so easy (tanking and drafting), Edmonton wouldn't still be rebuilding.

Trading Higgins isn't a critical supporting player he's made out to be. He's taking up a roster spot that's making our top 6 non functional and in the process gumming up prospect development.

Edmonton is the biggest cliche on these boards, getting higher draft picks is objectively better than lower ones regardless of your supporting cast. And in The Canucks case, I'd suffer a few seasons getting 4-th to-8th rather than 14th +

What the Canucks will have in 2016 is going to be a lot different than Edm in 2010.

Shipping Higgins out is to be able to keep much much younger guys in Richardson and Matthias/Dorsett as the support guys this cliche demands. AND the ice time players like Kassian and Vey, damn even Horvat have earned.

Higgins is the one yard I'd be willing to go towards this youth, and maintaining this Edmonton/supporting cast master da vnici code balance that every argument about tanking comes down to

 

[Zombotron]

Except a big reason LA is as good as they are, is because of the supporting players around the players they drafted too. It's no guarantee we can just pull that off. When's the last time we pulled a trade like LA did to get Richards/Carter? That was a huge trade for them.

If everything were so easy (tanking and drafting), Edmonton wouldn't still be rebuilding.

Williams too. Patrick O'Sullivan and a second-round draft pick for last year's Conn Smythe winner.

(and Gaborik)