Value of: Duchene to Florida

[Jonas1235]

FLA-Duchene

COL-



Defense help to Colorado. What would it take? Panthers need more scoring and speed.

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[forsbergavs32]

FLA-Duchene

COL-



Defense help to Colorado. What would it take? Panthers need more scoring and speed.

It would likely be something the panthers wouldn't want to pay. Avs need to get high end talent back in a trade of a core player to it would probably be either:

A. Similar high end player (Huberdeau, Barkov, Trocheck, Ekblad)

Or

B. A package with high end prospects and picks (Think ROR trade)

Sakic doesn't need to move him so even though he's willing to move core guys he's not going to settle for lesser deals that don't improve the Avs.

Also there's another Duchene to Florida thread on page 2 that has more replies if that helps you find more answers

 

[IceManCat]

It would likely be something the panthers wouldn't want to pay. Avs need to get high end talent back in a trade of a core player to it would probably be either:

A. Similar high end player (Huberdeau, Barkov, Trocheck, Ekblad)

Or

B. A package with high end prospects and picks (Think ROR trade)

Sakic doesn't need to move him so even though he's willing to move core guys he's not going to settle for lesser deals that don't improve the Avs.

Also there's another Duchene to Florida thread on page 2 that has more replies if that helps you find more answers

Ive now heard multiple Avs fans regard Trocheck as a high end player along with Ekblad and Huberdeau. I would trade Trocheck+ for Duchene in a heartbeat

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Ive now heard multiple Avs fans regard Trocheck as a high end player along with Ekblad and Huberdeau. I would trade Trocheck+ for Duchene in a heartbeat

You probably wont like what the + is in that trade.


Would take at least FLA 1st + B level prospect.

 

[Avs44]

You probably wont like what the + is in that trade.


Would take at least FLA 1st + B level prospect.

Why would you have any interest in that?? A downgraded, 5'10 centre who addresses zero of the Avs' needs? No interest whatsoever.

 

[dahrougem2]

You probably wont like what the + is in that trade.


Would take at least FLA 1st + B level prospect.

That still sucks for us.

I consider Duchene to be more valuable than ROR, and that return was Zadorov, Grigorenko, Compher, and a 2nd round pick which turned into A.J. Greer.

I'd expect AT LEAST that from the Panthers.

 

[Avs71]

Why would you have any interest in that?? A downgraded, 5'10 centre who addresses zero of the Avs' needs? No interest whatsoever.

No kidding.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Why would you have any interest in that?? A downgraded, 5'10 centre who addresses zero of the Avs' needs? No interest whatsoever.

Because Florida's first is a potential Top 10 pick with the state that team is in currently.


And the Prospect someone like Borgstrom.


If we're selling Duchene, a package of futures is what we should target. Getting another Top 6 Center back who can play a good 200 foot game, as well as a potential lottery pick in a draft with solid depth and a prospect like Borgstrom is a decent haul.


We could probably get better offers. But I think that would be a good starting point for Florida with other pieces added around.


We're not gonna get a lot more then that for Duchene. He's not some high end #1C like Avs fans seem to think. He's a 30/30 High end #2C or low end #1C. Getting a decent #2C and solid futures is fair value.


I have a feeling a lot of Avs fans are going to sorely disappointed with the return Duchene gets if he is traded. And then you'll all hilariously blame Sakic for getting poor value for our supposed superstars.

 

[IceManCat]

Borgstrom is starting look like a fantastic pick. Over a point per game in college and is 6'3, Might be a nice centerman for Mikko Rantanen

 

[burrythebiscuit*]

This thread just happened did it not? I remember saying the same exact thing that you wouldn't like the cost as the first person that replied

 

[JoemAvs]

Because Florida's first is a potential Top 10 pick with the state that team is in currently.


And the Prospect someone like Borgstrom.


If we're selling Duchene, a package of futures is what we should target. Getting another Top 6 Center back who can play a good 200 foot game, as well as a potential lottery pick in a draft with solid depth and a prospect like Borgstrom is a decent haul.


We could probably get better offers. But I think that would be a good starting point for Florida with other pieces added around.


We're not gonna get a lot more then that for Duchene. He's not some high end #1C like Avs fans seem to think. He's a 30/30 High end #2C or low end #1C. Getting a decent #2C and solid futures is fair value.


I have a feeling a lot of Avs fans are going to sorely disappointed with the return Duchene gets if he is traded. And then you'll all hilariously blame Sakic for getting poor value for our supposed superstars.

It is an awful trade with awful value.(the Panthers with Duchene and Huberdeau getting healthy are not picking top10)

A buch of mystery boxes that even if they hit their potential are not worth Duchene. Trochek is decent but not a main piece I would accept in any kind of deal that involves Matt Duchene.
You are entitled to your opinion of him.
I disagree with it.

It is a horrible deal. The Avs are getting nothing out of it that they really need.
Aside from depth. But if we blow it up anyways, depth will come naturally if we do it right.

No need to make a terrible trade to achieve that.

Rather pay 8 M / year to Duchene to ensure that he stays with the Avs than make a trade which does nothing for us.


I personally feel that a toptier Dman or prospect is a must in any kind of Duchene deal.

Otherwise we should just look to extend him.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Borgstrom is starting look like a fantastic pick. Over a point per game in college and is 6'3, Might be a nice centerman for Mikko Rantanen

Agreed. The Avs could really use a Big Center down the road and Borgstrom could be that guy for us.


Can Trochek play Wing at all? It wouldn't be a problem now, but in a few years potentially could be an issue when Borgstrom is NHL ready he'd be the ideal #2C behind Mackinnon but Trochek would need to be able to play Wing for that to work.



But if the Avs could come out of the Duchene trade with a Big Potential #2C(Borgstrom) a current Two way #2C who's versatile and can play the Wings(Trochek) and a pick that fits in the ~9-14 range of the draft where they can snag Foote or Hague. If the Avs can do that in a Duchene trade they would be potentially filling some of the biggest holes they have right now in a couple of years time.


Personally I would prefer to target Huberdeau as the roster player from Florida as he is much more suited on the Wing.

 

[Avs44]

Because Florida's first is a potential Top 10 pick with the state that team is in currently.


And the Prospect someone like Borgstrom.


If we're selling Duchene, a package of futures is what we should target. Getting another Top 6 Center back who can play a good 200 foot game, as well as a potential lottery pick in a draft with solid depth and a prospect like Borgstrom is a decent haul.


We could probably get better offers. But I think that would be a good starting point for Florida with other pieces added around.


We're not gonna get a lot more then that for Duchene. He's not some high end #1C like Avs fans seem to think. He's a 30/30 High end #2C or low end #1C. Getting a decent #2C and solid futures is fair value.


I have a feeling a lot of Avs fans are going to sorely disappointed with the return Duchene gets if he is traded. And then you'll all hilariously blame Sakic for getting poor value for our supposed superstars.

Stop making presuppositions Pierce. We know from McKenzie and Lebrun the Avs were really interested in Trouba, we know from Dreger and Friedman that Landeskog was made available for Lindholm, we know from Friedman in his 30 thoughts a few weeks ago the Avs are interested in adding two defensmen. If Duchene is traded, I'm confident it will have to involve a top defensive prospect, or a high end young defender. No, they won't get Hanifin, but I'm quite certain they aren't going to be trading Duchene for a clearly downgraded forward and non-defense future pieces. My objection has nothing to do with your rant in the last two paragraphs. If Duchene is traded, you don't trade him for downgrades and mystery boxes (and I doubt that pick is top 10 with Hubs coming back+Duchene; it's 11th right now and would almost certainly trend up), you trade him to address the biggest problem this franchise has had for 5+ years, AKA serious help on defense.


Also, I like the O'Reilly trade if that is what you're referring to, and I've not blamed Sakic, so if that was supposed to be some passive aggressive shot...try again.

 

[Brucentric*]

It is an awful trade with awful value.(the Panthers with Duchene and Huberdeau getting healthy are not picking top10)

A buch of mystery boxes that even if they hit their potential are not worth Duchene. Trochek is decent but not a main piece I would accept in any kind of deal that involves Matt Duchene.
You are entitled to your opinion of him.
I disagree with it.

It is a horrible deal. The Avs are getting nothing out of it that they really need.
Aside from depth. But if we blow it up anyways, depth will come naturally if we do it right.

No need to make a terrible trade to achieve that.

Rather pay 8 M / year to Duchene to ensure that he stays with the Avs than make a trade which does nothing for us.


I personally feel that a toptier Dman or prospect is a must in any kind of Duchene deal.

Otherwise we should just look to extend him.

Bruins would listen on Duchene. Would a package of Krug plus plus be a starter ?.....What else would you want. Do they need Krug ? That would free up Barrie. ....Other then McAvoy, i would be interested alot in Duchene as a Bruin fan. We have a deep and talented pool of kids coming soon.

 

[JoemAvs]

Bruins would listen on Duchene. Would a package of Krug plus plus be a starter ?.....What else would you want. Do they need Krug ? That would free up Barrie. ....Other then McAvoy, i would be interested alot in Duchene as a Bruin fan. We have a deep and talented pool of kids coming soon.

Krug is the last thing we need to be honest. We already have Barrie who is arguably the same or even a better version of him. We need top tier two way guys.

And it does not make sense to trade Duchene for Krug (value is IMO terrible in that deal so you would have to add like crazy) only to be forced to trade Barrie after that.

Bruins are not a good fit.
Unless Carlo or atleast McAvoy can be part of the discussion.

Avs need a top tier D prospect or young D already in the NHL in return for Duchene.

Otherwise in my mind they should not even consider trading him.

 

[Avs44]

Bruins would listen on Duchene. Would a package of Krug plus plus be a starter ?.....What else would you want. Do they need Krug ? That would free up Barrie. ....Other then McAvoy, i would be interested alot in Duchene as a Bruin fan. We have a deep and talented pool of kids coming soon.

Another Tyson Barrie is about the last thing the franchise needs. As Joem said, think Carlo or McAvoy in any deal, or really no interest there.

 

[Brucentric*]

Krug is the last thing we need to be honest. We already have Barrie who is arguably the same or even a better version of him. We need top tier two way guys.

And it does not make sense to trade Duchene for Krug (value is IMO terrible in that deal so you would have to add like crazy) only to be forced to trade Barrie after that.

Bruins are not a good fit.
Unless Carlo or atleast McAvoy can be part of the discussion.

Avs need a top tier D prospect or young D already in the NHL in return for Duchene.

Otherwise in my mind they should not even consider trading him.

Thanks, Yea bad fit. McAvoy is going nowhere nor is Carlo. We have 3 other top Dmen prospects. Louzan is rated highly and is very close. He is the best D prospect we could offer. Zboril also if they preferred. We have McAvoy's partner on team USA also.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Stop making presuppositions Pierce. We know from McKenzie and Lebrun the Avs were really interested in Trouba, we know from Dreger and Friedman that Landeskog was made available for Lindholm, we know from Friedman in his 30 thoughts a few weeks ago the Avs are interested in adding two defensmen. If Duchene is traded, I'm confident it will have to involve a top defensive prospect, or a high end young defender. No, they won't get Hanifin, but I'm quite certain they aren't going to be trading Duchene for a clearly downgraded forward and non-defense future pieces. My objection has nothing to do with your rant in the last two paragraphs. If Duchene is traded, you don't trade him for downgrades and mystery boxes (and I doubt that pick is top 10 with Hubs coming back+Duchene; it's 11th right now and would almost certainly trend up), you trade him to address the biggest problem this franchise has had for 5+ years, AKA serious help on defense.


Also, I like the O'Reilly trade if that is what you're referring to, and I've not blamed Sakic, so if that was supposed to be some passive aggressive shot...try again.

This is hilarious.


Of course the Avs are making these guys available for the Top end Defenders. And guess what, not a single damn trade has occurred.

I wonder why? The answer is pretty obvious, these teams all understand the importance of high end Dmen or potential high end Dmen and they aren't willing to trade them without significant overpayment that comes in the form of Landeskog++ or Duchene++. Something the Avs can't afford to do.


I mean ok sure, if by some ridiculous set of circumstances a Dman like Hanifin or Lindholm become available for Duchene straight up then ya that's a trade you make over a package deal. But the Avs have tried this many times before over the last couple of years and no team is willing to move those type of Dmen without getting massive over payment and the Avs simply do not have the depth or prospect pool to make that kind of trade right now.



The ROR trade is working out great for us. It was a mystery box trade where we got pieces that filled multiple holes and added depth to this team. Another trade like that is exactly the type of trade we need to make if we're gonna make a trade.

It is an awful trade with awful value.(the Panthers with Duchene and Huberdeau getting healthy are not picking top10)

A buch of mystery boxes that even if they hit their potential are not worth Duchene. Trochek is decent but not a main piece I would accept in any kind of deal that involves Matt Duchene.
You are entitled to your opinion of him.
I disagree with it.

It is a horrible deal. The Avs are getting nothing out of it that they really need.
Aside from depth. But if we blow it up anyways, depth will come naturally if we do it right.

No need to make a terrible trade to achieve that.

Rather pay 8 M / year to Duchene to ensure that he stays with the Avs than make a trade which does nothing for us.


I personally feel that a toptier Dman or prospect is a must in any kind of Duchene deal.

Otherwise we should just look to extend him.

The bolded is what we should be doing any way and I agree with that part for sure. It makes absolutely no sense to trade him as he's out most productive and consistent forward on the team.


But for the sake of discussion, there's absolutely no way Duchene returns a Top tier D or even a Top D prospect for that matter. Defense is BY FAR the most valuable position in the game and no team is going to give up it's best Dman or best D prospect even for a pretty good forward like Duchene.


I mean, Duchene isn't even a Top tier center himself, why on earth would he return a Top tier Dman. This is the logic some Avs fans have that makes no sense at all. We also cant afford to be adding our own picks or prospects on top of Duchene for a top tier Dman because we dont have enough depth to that to begin with. We're seeing first hand this year just how far a team can go with poor depth and it isn't very far, to put it nicely.



Our best chance to get a Top tier Dman or top tier D prospect is to draft one ourselves. A trade like this gives us a 2nd Pick in the Top ~14 or so(And yes it would be in that range. The Avs aren't going to move Duchene during the season. It'll come in the off-season and in this circumstance it would likely be a draft day trade) and have another chance to draft a Dman with #1 potential for us down the road. On top of that we get a replacement Top 6 center, and a future Top 6 Center who's having a breakout season in College hockey.

 

[JoemAvs]

[...]



The ROR trade is working out great for us. It was a mystery box trade where we got pieces that filled multiple holes and added depth to this team. Another trade like that is exactly the type of trade we need to make if we're gonna make a trade.



The bolded is what we should be doing any way and I agree with that part for sure. It makes absolutely no sense to trade him as he's out most productive and consistent forward on the team.


But for the sake of discussion, there's absolutely no way Duchene returns a Top tier D or even a Top D prospect for that matter. Defense is BY FAR the most valuable position in the game and no team is going to give up it's best Dman or best D prospect even for a pretty good forward like Duchene.


I mean, Duchene isn't even a Top tier center himself, why on earth would he return a Top tier Dman. This is the logic some Avs fans have that makes no sense at all. We also cant afford to be adding our own picks or prospects on top of Duchene for a top tier Dman because we dont have enough depth to that to begin with. We're seeing first hand this year just how far a team can go with poor depth and it isn't very far, to put it nicely.



Our best chance to get a Top tier Dman or top tier D prospect is to draft one ourselves. A trade like this gives us a 2nd Pick in the Top ~14 or so(And yes it would be in that range. The Avs aren't going to move Duchene during the season. It'll come in the off-season and in this circumstance it would likely be a draft day trade) and have another chance to draft a Dman with #1 potential for us down the road. On top of that we get a replacement Top 6 center, and a future Top 6 Center who's having a breakout season in College hockey.

I disagree about the ROR trade. Lets see in 3 years where we stand with that. Basically only depends on Zadorov. If he can become atleast a solid #2, then it was worth it.
If not then we will always be the loser. Jury is still out on that.

I agree with that it won't be easy getting that D I would want.
But I feel Duchene has the kind of value to fetch one.
If he can't get you that, you don't even consider trading him.

I also agree with drafting D. But sadly the Avs haven't done that in a while and I am not sure that will change. Especially in this draft.

I honestly don't want another pick in this 1st if it costs us Duchene. Liljegren and Foote are gone when Florida picks and Hague or Valimaki are too much of a questionmark.
Same goes for the forwards that are slated to go there. Wait for 2018 to make a move like that. Way better draft for Ds.

I don't really want to pick around 11-14 which will be the earliest that pick will be (Ekblad will bounce back, Huberdeau get healthy and Duchene will boost their offense quite a bit as well).

I don't honestly care about getting a 2nd line center in return if we trade Duchene.

If we go down that road, we will have to trade atleast Varly and probably Barrie as well. Which means rebuild.

Lets see what Compher, Beaudin and Jost can do first before we try to fill that #2 C by trading away Duchene.

I would focus on our defense first before I think about that. Same basically for our winger depth.

Way easier to fix than the blueline.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I disagree about the ROR trade. Lets see in 3 years where we stand with that. Basically only depends on Zadorov. If he can become atleast a solid #2, then it was worth it.
If not then we will always be the loser. Jury is still out on that.

I agree with that it won't be easy getting that D I would want.
But I feel Duchene has the kind of value to fetch one.
If he can't get you that, you don't even consider trading him.

I also agree with drafting D. But sadly the Avs haven't done that in a while and I am not sure that will change. Especially in this draft.

I honestly don't want another pick in this 1st if it costs us Duchene. Liljegren and Foote are gone when Florida picks and Hague or Valimaki are too much of a questionmark.
Same goes for the forwards that are slated to go there. Wait for 2018 to make a move like that. Way better draft for Ds.

I don't really want to pick around 11-14 which will be the earliest that pick will be (Ekblad will bounce back, Huberdeau get healthy and Duchene will boost their offense quite a bit as well).

I don't honestly care about getting a 2nd line center in return if we trade Duchene.

If we go down that road, we will have to trade atleast Varly and probably Barrie as well. Which means rebuild.

Lets see what Compher, Beaudin and Jost can do first before we try to fill that #2 C by trading away Duchene.

I would focus on our defense first before I think about that. Same basically for our winger depth.

Way easier to fix than the blueline.

The extra first give the Avs a tonne of flexibility in the draft though. Depending on where Florida's 1st is(If it's in the Top 14 I think there's a more then reasonable chance Foote is still on the board, especially given the depth and unknown of this draft).

But it gives the Avs options. They can draft Liljegren with our own 1st(assuming it stays Top 3 in the range Liljegren will go), or they can use Florida's 1st along with other assets to move up in the draft a make sure we get Foote, while taking someone like Patrick or Hischier with our own 1st.

And if moving up fails, Hague is still a solid D prospect and although he has his question marks, if things go right with him he can be a Top pairing Dman for the Avs and still a very valuable prospect to have.

As for the #2C stuff. Jost is the only one with a realistic shot at becoming a Top 6 Center for us. Both Compher and Beaudin definitely have NHL potential and maybe and outside shot of being a Top 6 center, but the most probable result is that they end up as good #3C's in the NHL. They both have offensive limitations that will stop them from being Top 6 guys(Although they should make for fantastic 3rd liners which is a valuable spot for us to fill).


Personally, I would much rather replace Trocheck with Huberdeau and go after Huberdeau + FLA 1st + Borgstrom instead. Hubs is more offensive then Trocheck and is a Winger which is hole we need to fill as well.

Between Borgstrom and Jost one of them would be the 2C eventually(Especially Jost, he's a special talent).

Trade Barrie for a Top 6 Winger(Something like the Larsson/Hall trade, maybe Edmonton moves Puljujarvi for Barrie with a small +?)


You build your future Top 9 around:

Landy - Mack - Rantanen
Huberdeau - Jost/Borgstrom - XXX
Greer - Compher/Beaudin - XXX


And your Defense gets built around:

Zadorov - EJ
XXXX - Foote/Liljegren


Fill the X's in up front via a Barrie trade for one, and the other from our 2nd 1st in this years draft. And the X on Defense can be a UFA signing like Alzner(Would be ideal IMO) or you hope Bigras/Meloche can take the next step.

 

[IceManCat]

Agreed. The Avs could really use a Big Center down the road and Borgstrom could be that guy for us.


Can Trochek play Wing at all? It wouldn't be a problem now, but in a few years potentially could be an issue when Borgstrom is NHL ready he'd be the ideal #2C behind Mackinnon but Trochek would need to be able to play Wing for that to work.



But if the Avs could come out of the Duchene trade with a Big Potential #2C(Borgstrom) a current Two way #2C who's versatile and can play the Wings(Trochek) and a pick that fits in the ~9-14 range of the draft where they can snag Foote or Hague. If the Avs can do that in a Duchene trade they would be potentially filling some of the biggest holes they have right now in a couple of years time.


Personally I would prefer to target Huberdeau as the roster player from Florida as he is much more suited on the Wing.

He started his career with the Panthers at wing Id say he can play it but not very well. His career took off when we put him at center, he also played center all throughout juniors. He is most effective down the middle although he plays a gritty two way game and is not afraid to battle for the puck making him a good winger theoretically but he just plays better at center.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Florida is not a good fit. No obvious main piece and we aren't ready to just take on a flat quantity package.

Same with Boston. What's the main piece? They have a lot of good D prospects but no real blue chipper. Can't build a package around one they are willing to give up. I like Lauzon, he's like an EJ type player but there needs to be a lot more with him.

 

[IceManCat]

Florida is not a good fit. No obvious main piece and we aren't ready to just take on a flat quantity package.

Same with Boston. What's the main piece? They have a lot of good D prospects but no real blue chipper. Can't build a package around one they are willing to give up. I like Lauzon, he's like an EJ type player but there needs to be a lot more with him.

What about an Ekblad for Mackinnon trade

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

What about an Ekblad for Mackinnon trade

Would never happen.


Florida would never move Ekblad. From an Avs perspective I would drive Mack to the airport myself(I dont even live in Colorado either so that should really tell you something).


Love Mack and think he's the most untouchable player on our roster, but I move him all day for an U23 #1D signed long term already.

 

[IceManCat]

Would never happen.


Florida would never move Ekblad. From an Avs perspective I would drive Mack to the airport myself(I dont even live in Colorado either so that should really tell you something).


Love Mack and think he's the most untouchable player on our roster, but I move him all day for an U23 #1D signed long term already.

Here is the thing with Ekblad he is a fantastic defenseman, but the Panthers new management want to mimic the Penguins style of play. And Ekblad just isn't that fast, also we can't seem to fill the seats. Ekblad would be great in a system like Boston, Minnesota, Arizona. He is struggling badly with our break out system. At the moment we all seem to be in limbo as to whether we can actually be a puck moving team with the personel we have currently. If management decides that Ekblad really can't play the system I can see him on the move.