Drafting Philosophy

[Drop the Sopel]

And E Johnson was a terrible pick at 1st.

Seemed okay at the time. I take every forward in the top 5 over him right now though.

Johnson was the only dman selected in the top 15 that year. Here's a list of dmen chosen in the 1st rd-

E. Johnson, Wishart, Mitera, Fischer, Sanguinetti, Persson, Vishnevsky, Summers, Corrente.

Here's some forwards taken in the 1st rd after 15-

C. Giroux, C. Stewart, P. Berglund.

What an awful year for dmen.

 

[Proto]

Not if more picks have been spent on defenemen than they have on strictly defensive forwards.

My top 5 dmen in the league list doesn't have a top 5 draft pick in the bunch - my top 5 list of forwards are all either 1st or 2nd overall picks.

IMO the Canucks top 5 on the backend is the strength of the team. And it took next to nothing in assets/draft picks to assemble.

Hamhuis- 12th
Garrison- undrafted
Edler- 91st
Tanev- undrafted
Bieksa- 151st

I think it would be very difficult to assemble a handful of equally valuable forwards with a 1st, 3rd, 5th rd pick and couple of free agent signings.

Further to this, the typical way that NHL teams value defenseman in drafts makes it easier to find bargains, in my opinion. Jordan Subban, for instance, has a statisticaly profile in junior that suggests a greater likelihood to be an NHL defenseman than some players drafted or ranked in the 1st round.

I'd take it a step farther and say I don't think I'd draft a defenseman in the 1st round unless he was an offensive juggernaut or my scouts had a very good argument to suggest support that defenseman breaking out offensively the next season (playing time, team effect, etc.).

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

I don't think i'm out of line when i say that the drafting under gillis has been crap

 

[arsmaster*]

The drafting has been crap under every GM we've had. No idea why one would isolate a poor history of drafting for the franchise and lay blame at the feet of the current GM.

I will say though, what does blame have to do with philosophy? Or are you just looking for something to groan about this morning.

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

The drafting has been crap under every GM we've had. No idea why one would isolate a poor history of drafting for the franchise and lay blame at the feet of the current GM.

I will say though, what does blame have to do with philosophy? Or are you just looking for something to groan about this morning.

burke had a couple solid drafts. hell, the 2011 team core was pretty much all burke players

 

[cc]

I don't like their apparent philosophy to avoid drafting Russians. Don't the Canucks still have a Russian scout? How is he earning his pay?

 

[ItsAllPartOfThePlan]

I don't think i'm out of line when i say that the drafting under gillis has been crap

I wouldn't say that at all.

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

I wouldn't say that at all.

how many gillis draft picks are there on the roster at the moment?
what is the combined total of GP for gillis draft picks this season?

 

[Taelin]

I don't think i'm out of line when i say that the drafting under gillis has been crap

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Barney Gumble]

burke had a couple solid drafts. hell, the 2011 team core was pretty much all burke players

Defense: Only Bieksa.
Goaltending:

Mostly Nonis.

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

Can you elaborate on this?

it's been ~5 years since he got hired, how many of his draft picks are on this roster? what is the combined GP of those draft picks in the NHL?

Defense: Only Bieksa.
Goaltending:

Mostly Nonis.

i like how you completely ignore the forward position

 

[Taelin]

it's been ~5 years since he got hired, how many of his draft picks are on this roster? what is the combined GP of those draft picks in the NHL?

I wouldn't judge a draft until 5 years later. 2008 was basically a Nonis draft, and the only player Gillis has had a say in drafting is an everyday NHL player (Hodgson).

 

[Barney Gumble]

i like how you completely ignore the forward position

Who scored like 8 goals in 7 games in the Finals? And how is two-thirds of a team built by Nonis means: "mostly built by Burke"?

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

Who scored like 8 goals in 7 games in the Finals?

were not arguing whether or not the core players did a good job or not though

 

[Taelin]

were not arguing whether or not the core players did a good job or not though

It's been 5 years since Gillis took over.

2003 was 5 years into Burke's tenure as GM, and his draft picks (Sedins mainly) weren't showing much.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Seemed okay at the time. I take every forward in the top 5 over him right now though.

Johnson was the only dman selected in the top 15 that year. Here's a list of dmen chosen in the 1st rd-

E. Johnson, Wishart, Mitera, Fischer, Sanguinetti, Persson, Vishnevsky, Summers, Corrente.

Here's some forwards taken in the 1st rd after 15-

C. Giroux, C. Stewart, P. Berglund.

What an awful year for dmen.

Cherry picking one year in which forwards did better than defenseman doesn't do anything to prove your point. How about we look at 2008, where you have Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Bogosian, Carlson, Gardiner, del Zotto, Myers...?

Further to this, the typical way that NHL teams value defenseman in drafts makes it easier to find bargains, in my opinion. Jordan Subban, for instance, has a statisticaly profile in junior that suggests a greater likelihood to be an NHL defenseman than some players drafted or ranked in the 1st round.

I'd take it a step farther and say I don't think I'd draft a defenseman in the 1st round unless he was an offensive juggernaut or my scouts had a very good argument to suggest support that defenseman breaking out offensively the next season (playing time, team effect, etc.).

How do you define offensive juggernaut?

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

It's been 5 years since Gillis took over.

2003 was 5 years into Burke's tenure as GM, and his draft picks (Sedins mainly) weren't showing much.

the difference is though that they were actually playing in the NHL, gillis' players are barely showing anything in the AHL to prove that they even deserve a shot to play in the big league

 

[Taelin]

the difference is though that they were actually playing in the NHL, gillis' players are barely showing anything in the AHL to prove that they even deserve a shot to play in the big league

Hodgson is playing in the NHL, Schroeder should be if not for his injury.

 

[Barney Gumble]

gillis' players are barely showing anything in the AHL to prove that they even deserve a shot to play in the big league

Frankie Corrado?

Undrafted but still amateur prospects Chris Tanev & Eddie Lack?

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

Hodgson is playing in the NHL, Schroeder should be if not for his injury.

jury is still out on schroeder

 

[Taelin]

jury is still out on schroeder

He's sown the ability to play in the NHL and doesn't look out of place.

 

[Barney Gumble]

He's sown the ability to play in the NHL and doesn't look out of place.

I'd agree with VNP that the jury is out on his ability to stick in the NHL; but he has shown enough IMHO, at the AHL level to given a shot at sticking with the parent club.

 

[Lundface*]

NHlers so far drafted by Gillis:

Hodgson
Schroeder
Connauton
Corrado (he's at this level, just will be hard to get time with contract status and depth on Van's d)

Undrafted young UFA signings:

Lack
Tanev
Archibald (looked good in his stint)

One thing I feel like people don't understand is opportunity and development at the NHL level. For example, with the strength of Vancouver's team under Gillis there isn't much opportunity for young players to make the team and stick. A player like Connauton had NO chance to play for Vancouver, and would have been looked at as a bad pick, yet he is looking fine on Dallas. With time he may develop to be a Bieksa level player....

Under Gillis' tenure Vancouver has also traded away a lot of picks (I think Vancuver has made the least picks in this span of any team, feel free to confirm) and it gave them a chance at the cup.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Cherry picking one year in which forwards did better than defenseman doesn't do anything to prove your point.

Then let's look at the top 5 of the previous draft too-

1. Alex Ovechkin
2. Evgeni Malkin
3. Cam Barker
4. Andrew Ladd
5. Blake Wheeler

One of these is not like the others.

There is a reason the top end of drafts are forward heavy. Why do you think that is?

 

[arttk]

No.

What's the point of talking about quality of dmen taken when the quality is unknown. If the quality is known at the time then there will be a 0% bust rate.

You're right, I did misread what you said, and I apologize. However, just because the sample size of forwards is bigger than the sample size of defensemen does not mean that their proportionate bust rate cannot be compared.

Of course they cannot be compared considering the sample size for dmen is that much smaller. Basically for such a small sample size, it takes like 1 or 2 drafts with an abnormal bust % to completely skew the stats.

Stating a fact(i.e. the percentages of forwards vs defensemen who were unsuccessful) and saying that as a result you can't say that it's a bad idea to take a defenseman in the first round seems like a perfectly logical conclusion, given that nothing in recent history suggests that.

Once again you are going back to the idea that I am saying it's a bad idea to take a dmen in the first round, I haven't said that.

Incorrect. Drop the Sopel said he would not use a first round pick on a defenseman unless it's a ridiculous talent who slid in the draft.

Do I look like him?

Why is that? The ratio of 44:21 is quite close to the 2:1 ratio between forwards and defensemen that teams have on their roster. How can you determine anything significant from that?

I am basing it on the actual players and not the number of players drafted in the top 5.

Just off the top of my head for STAR forwards drafted in the top 5
Crosby, Tavares, Towes, Kane, Ovy, Malkin, Stamkos, Thornton, Backstrom, Erik Staal, Kessel, Sedins.

vs dmen drafted in the top 5 that are actually stars
Doughty, Pietrangelo, ( Seth Jones seems like he will get there )

I tried to look back into 1998 and it seems like all the highly drafted D never really busted but at the same time considering how high they were drafted, never reached the star level that one would hope with a top 5 pick.

example: Bouwmeester, Bogosian, Erik Johnson, Jack Johnson, Thomas Hickey, Karl Alzner, Luke Schenn, Cam Barker, Joni Pitkanen, Brad Stuart, Bryan Allen, Vitali ishnevski, Rostislav Klesla.

I mean aside from maybe Bouwmeester, would you pick any of the above Dmen with a top 5 pick now? Only 2 legit stars came out of a top 5 pick in a 10+ year span, that is pretty damn wasteful. ( I am not counting the Hedman and 2010 + draft class, just too early).