Doug Harvey or Bobby Orr: Bigger Position Changer

[bluemandan]

I am WAY too young to have seen either of these players play. (I'm 26.) Yet I hear a lot about how both of these player revolutionized the position of defensemen in hockey. So my question for those who may have seen one or both play is: Who was a bigger influence in how today's NHL players play the position?

Click to read more...

 

[Derick*]

I have no idea how Doug Harvey changed the position and I imagine most people here don't, so before a poll a little education from someone who knows would be good.

 

[MXD]

Well...
The thing I wonder is -- how does a guy like Orr was much different than a guy like Shore?

 

[Crosbyfan]

By far Orr has more influence... and by far modern defencemen, even offensive puck moving defencemen, that want to keep their jobs play a more balanced game like Harvey(or arguably like Orr after enough injuries to slow his game from superhuman to merely great)

 

[Canadiens1958]

Position Evolution

Orr built on what Shore and Harvey had contributed. Orr`s biggest influence was the incredible skating that he brought to the game. This changed the way the position was viewed. Kids that were exceptional skating started playing defense after Orr showed the impact that a great skating defenseman could have.

 

[tony d]

Bobby Orr

 

[bluemandan]

I have no idea how Doug Harvey changed the position and I imagine most people here don't, so before a poll a little education from someone who knows would be good.

Well, I am certainly not the one to be doing the educating. That's kinda why I posted the poll.

Also, I didn't know much to anything about Eddie Shore or I probably would have included him in the poll.

I would imagine that most people on these boards (myself definitely included) are too young to have seen these players, or know much about them. But defense is my favorite position, so I am trying to learn more.

Here are a couple of links from the Legends of Hockey website:

Doug Harvey: http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/spot_oneononep197301.htm

Bobby Orr: http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/spot_oneononep197902.htm

Eddie Shore: http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/spot_oneononep194705.htm

 

[lextune]

I would sum it up this way:

To fully appreciate Harvey's greatness you needed to have some level of hockey understanding.

You could take a guy off the street that had never seen a hockey game in his life to see Shore (or Orr) and he would say;
"Wow, that number 2 (or 4) is something else out there."

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, there's actually some good video of Doug Harvey.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkcH6jsqJE0

 

[bluemandan]

Are these off base for contribution to how the position is played:

Shore: offensive ability

Harvey: controlling the pace of the game

Orr: skating ability

 

[Dreakmur]

Shore: offensive ability

Hasn't there always been offensive defensemen?

Jack Campbell, Mike Grant, Hod Stuart, Cyclone Taylor, Lester Patrick, Frank Patrick, Sprague Cleghorn, Didier Pitre, HArry Cameron, Lloyd Cook, Art Duncan, Joe Simpson, .... there's always been rushers from the blueline.

 

[FiveForDrawingBlood]

Canadiens 1958....was that you on FAN590 this morning? Talking about New Year's Eve game 1975

 

[steve141]

I'm surprised that this is such a big win for Orr. I would really appreciate if the people who voted Orr could explain why he changed the position more.

In terms of influence Orr I think Orr is similar to Hasek. Hasek was the best goalie in the world for several years, and I'm sure lots of young goalies tried to emulate him. The problem is that you can't really play like Hasek if you don't have Haseks gymnastic ability and general hockey sense.

Same thing with Orr. Very few defencemen (Coffey, Bourque and a handful of other players) can rush the puck even remotely like Orr. Most offensive defencemen today rely on good passing rather than rushing. From the videos I've seen I'd say even Harvey might have been a better rusher than most offensive defencemen today.

Nicklas Lidstrom, the top defenceman of the last decade, is a great scater, but scates nothing like Orr. Orr would frequently rush up, and then rush home. Many defencemen of today tend to scate backwards instead of rushing home.

So while Orr's influence was clear on the young players in the 80s I'm not so sure where I see Orr in the play of today's defencemen. In which way has he changed it more than Harvey?

Harvey perfected two plays that all modern defencemen try to emulate:

1) Great first pass. Prior to Harvey defencemen who grabbed the puck would often blindly slap it forward or try to rush it. Harvey would hold on to it and make a quick fire wagon transition pass instead. Scouts today look for defencemen with a good first pass.

2) Powerplay quarterback. Harvey ran one of the best powerplay units ever.

 

[jkrx]

I'm surprised that this is such a big win for Orr. I would really appreciate if the people who voted Orr could explain why he changed the position more.

In terms of influence Orr I think Orr is similar to Hasek. Hasek was the best goalie in the world for several years, and I'm sure lots of young goalies tried to emulate him. The problem is that you can't really play like Hasek if you don't have Haseks gymnastic ability and general hockey sense.

Same thing with Orr. Very few defencemen (Coffey, Bourque and a handful of other players) can rush the puck even remotely like Orr. Most offensive defencemen today rely on good passing rather than rushing. From the videos I've seen I'd say even Harvey might have been a better rusher than most offensive defencemen today.

Nicklas Lidstrom, the top defenceman of the last decade, is a great scater, but scates nothing like Orr. Orr would frequently rush up, and then rush home. Many defencemen of today tend to scate backwards instead of rushing home.

So while Orr's influence was clear on the young players in the 80s I'm not so sure where I see Orr in the play of today's defencemen. In which way has he changed it more than Harvey?

Harvey perfected two plays that all modern defencemen try to emulate:

1) Great first pass. Prior to Harvey defencemen who grabbed the puck would often blindly slap it forward or try to rush it. Harvey would hold on to it and make a quick fire wagon transition pass instead. Scouts today look for defencemen with a good first pass.

2) Powerplay quarterback. Harvey ran one of the best powerplay units ever.

Yes, Lidström plays more in the sense of Harvey when it comes to breakout passes and playmaking.

Has any defenseman after Orr ever played like him? I'd say Harvey changed the way defenseman played while Orr changed the way we looked at a defenseman. Ergo I voted for Harvey.

 

[shazariahl]

I'm surprised that this is such a big win for Orr. I would really appreciate if the people who voted Orr could explain why he changed the position more.

In terms of influence Orr I think Orr is similar to Hasek. Hasek was the best goalie in the world for several years, and I'm sure lots of young goalies tried to emulate him. The problem is that you can't really play like Hasek if you don't have Haseks gymnastic ability and general hockey sense.

Same thing with Orr. Very few defencemen (Coffey, Bourque and a handful of other players) can rush the puck even remotely like Orr. Most offensive defencemen today rely on good passing rather than rushing. From the videos I've seen I'd say even Harvey might have been a better rusher than most offensive defencemen today.

Nicklas Lidstrom, the top defenceman of the last decade, is a great scater, but scates nothing like Orr. Orr would frequently rush up, and then rush home. Many defencemen of today tend to scate backwards instead of rushing home.

So while Orr's influence was clear on the young players in the 80s I'm not so sure where I see Orr in the play of today's defencemen. In which way has he changed it more than Harvey?

Harvey perfected two plays that all modern defencemen try to emulate:

1) Great first pass. Prior to Harvey defencemen who grabbed the puck would often blindly slap it forward or try to rush it. Harvey would hold on to it and make a quick fire wagon transition pass instead. Scouts today look for defencemen with a good first pass.

2) Powerplay quarterback. Harvey ran one of the best powerplay units ever.

Interesting post. I never got to see Harvey, and only saw a bit of Orr at the end of his career, so I can't really speak much about either. But what you say does seem to make sense - Orr (and the others in his category - Gretzky, Lemieux, maybe Hasek) all played on a different level which can't really be emulated by anyone else. So maybe they influenced the game in the sense that kids growing up wanted to suddenly play that possition, but not as much about changing the actual way the game is played - because no one else could really play it the way these guys did.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Yes, Lidström plays more in the sense of Harvey when it comes to breakout passes and playmaking.

Has any defenseman after Orr ever played like him? I'd say Harvey changed the way defenseman played while Orr changed the way we looked at a defenseman. Ergo I voted for Harvey.

Harvey didn't actually change the game or the way D-men play though.
He simply excelled in all aspects of the position, he was text book perfect.

Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.

 

[jkrx]

Harvey didn't actually change the game or the way D-men play though.
He simply excelled in all aspects of the position, he was text book perfect.

Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.

I agree with viewed but not played unless you mean the explosion of offensive oriented defensemen. No one could emulate what Orr did and no one played the way he did.

 

[Jacques Trap*]

Harvey revolutionized the defense position.

Orr revolutionized the whole damn game...

 

[BM67]

There was a more defensive mind set in the 50s and 60s. Tim Horton was told by his coach that he got one rush per game, and when he got to the blueline he was to pass it off. Kelly, Harvey and Gadsby put up some pretty good point totals in the 50s. Other than Pilote, there was very little offense put up by the D in the 60s. Harvey's influence?

Orr was the first D to lead an NHL team in scoring, but Park and Potvin followed suit soon after. The offense from the D took off, as did the overall offense play in the next few decades. Orr's influence in large part.

 

[steve141]

There was a more defensive mind set in the 50s and 60s. Tim Horton was told by his coach that he got one rush per game, and when he got to the blueline he was to pass it off. Kelly, Harvey and Gadsby put up some pretty good point totals in the 50s. Other than Pilote, there was very little offense put up by the D in the 60s. Harvey's influence?

Orr was the first D to lead an NHL team in scoring, but Park and Potvin followed suit soon after. The offense from the D took off, as did the overall offense play in the next few decades. Orr's influence in large part.

There is no doubt that the top defenders from about 1975 to the first lockout were very inspired by Bobby Orr. But the question was who had the bigger influence on how the defencemen play today. I still maintain that most defencemen of today play a game that is more modelled on Harvey than Orr. Rushing defencemen were not wholly uncommon in the eighties, but how often do you see a defenceman score a coast-to-coast goal today?

 

[steve141]

Harvey didn't actually change the game or the way D-men play though.
He simply excelled in all aspects of the position, he was text book perfect.

Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.

Disagree. You are correct that Harvey did not invent the long transition pass, just as Orr did not invent rushing. But they both took it to a level that was previously unseen.

Harvey was one of the greatest rushers of his time, but it is his passing game which sets him appart offensively for me. Harvey came into the league just 18 years after the forward pass was fully instated. Offence was traditionally created by a combination of rushing and sideways passing. Even though the game changed drastically over the 30s and 40s the offence was still mainly created by forwards.

In comes the fire brigade. The kind of quick transition game that the Canadiens employed in the 40s and 50s was a big game changer that all teams had to react to. It was made possible by calm, deliberate passing from the defence. This fast transition game is now the standard blue print for all modern North-American teams.

Orr on the other hand was special and completely changed how the position was viewed and played in the modern era.

Again, please be specific. Of course Orr has been tremendously influential, but please specify in which way you see Orr's influence more than Harvey's in the defencemen of today.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Disagree. You are correct that Harvey did not invent the long transition pass, just as Orr did not invent rushing. But they both took it to a level that was previously unseen.

Harvey was one of the greatest rushers of his time, but it is his passing game which sets him appart offensively for me. Harvey came into the league just 18 years after the forward pass was fully instated. Offence was traditionally created by a combination of rushing and sideways passing. Even though the game changed drastically over the 30s and 40s the offence was still mainly created by forwards.

In comes the fire brigade. The kind of quick transition game that the Canadiens employed in the 40s and 50s was a big game changer that all teams had to react to. It was made possible by calm, deliberate passing from the defence. This fast transition game is now the standard blue print for all modern North-American teams.



Again, please be specific. Of course Orr has been tremendously influential, but please specify in which way you see Orr's influence more than Harvey's in the defencemen of today.

Specifically, he revolutionized the position and ushered in whole new thinking on what a d-man's role was in the offense as evidenced by the slew of rushing offensively orientated d-men that followed.

Jacques Trap summed it up pretty good I think...

Harvey revolutionized the defense position.

Orr revolutionized the whole damn game...

 

[jkrx]

Specifically, he revolutionized the position and ushered in whole new thinking on what a d-man's role was in the offense as evidenced by the slew of rushing offensively orientated d-men that followed.

Jacques Trap summed it up pretty good I think...

The question was "Who was a bigger influence in how today's NHL players play the position?". Not how he influenced defensemen in the 70s or 80s.

 

[Rhiessan71]

The question was "Who was a bigger influence in how today's NHL players play the position?". Not how he influenced defensemen in the 70s or 80s.

Good point actually, you're right, unlike Orr, you can be (and are) taught to play like Harvey.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Orr's biggest influence wasn't innovation but reminding people of old tactics. Harvey, I'm not sure he changed the game, so much as he played the position as close to perfect as one can. His biggest influence was probably that when he stood up to a coach, the coach backed down.